Anti-Aircraft guns: Liberated or Captured



  • Switch, you are late, where are you…. :lol:

    or maybe Craig Yope :?



  • @Bean:

    Pg 17 of the pdf of LHTR 2.0

    Liberating a Territory
    If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you
    “liberate” the territory. You do not take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the
    territory and its income. Antiaircraft guns or industrial complexes in that territory revert to the
    original controller of the territory.

    In response to your earlier post Jen, please read the rules before posting. I am right.

    You quoted “CAPTURING” a territory. There is a difference between capturing and LIBERATING. The original post asked about LIBERATING. Clearly, I am right, and you are wrong.

    well, you are only partialy right,

    you see
    for example
    i have USSR-Moscow falls
    and i have an AA in Karelia, you ˝liberate˝ the territory with UK forces, but the AA gun doesnt go ot USSR side   but to UK side which as its writen up there to quote…

    ˝If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you
    “liberate” the territory. You do not take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the
    territory and its income. Antiaircraft guns or industrial complexes in that territory revert to the
    original controller of the territory˝

    here afcorse the original owner cant retain the territory but neither can he retain the AA
    so, thats it



  • i thought if a capital falls then any teritory liberated by there allies untell the capital is allso liberated goes to the liberating nation.
    for example if UK losses England and India, then USSR liberates India, the USSR gains India as it’s own.



  • and i have an AA in Karelia, you ˝liberate˝ the territory with UK forces, but the AA gun doesnt go ot USSR side  but to UK side which as its writen up there to quote…

    But you are not liberating Karelia. Because there is no capital, you are capturing it.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Bean:

    and i have an AA in Karelia, you ˝liberate˝ the territory with UK forces, but the AA gun doesnt go ot USSR side  but to UK side which as its writen up there to quote…

    But you are not liberating Karelia. Because there is no capital, you are capturing it.

    Yup, but it was my understanding that if you liberated Moscow and 1 Gun was UK, 1 Gun was US and 2 Guns were USSR, then 1 Gun goes back to UK, 1 Gun goes back to US and 2 Guns stay USSR.

    I seem to remember surrendering the fight to Switch and that was Switch’s stance on the matter.

    Honestly, I’ve yet to play a game where someone gave grief if a nation captured a territory and took possession of the IC and AA there.  As long as it was not liberated, in which case, as we’ve mentioned (now that Bean and I are on the same page and the muckracker Mazer isn’t throwing dust in our faces making us think we are not on the same page) the nation who controlls the territory also owns the AA Guns and Industrials there. (As in the example, India is liberated all 400 AA Guns in India are now British.)



  • This is kind of an amazing thread.

    Briefly:

    1. If a team liberates an ally’s AA gun it is not necessarily the property of the liberator, it is not necessarily the property of the owner of the territory, it is the property of the original owner.

    2. Jen, under box rules you are certainly wrong when you wrote:

    So, if Russia moves a gun to India, Japan captures it, and England liberates it, it becomes a British Gun.

    It is still a Russian gun under standard rules.

    3. When I wrote “Bean got it right”, at that point he had simply quoted the rule that the piece reverts to the original owner.  That would be the Russians because it was a Russian AA in India.

    4. LHTR 2.0 looks different to me, and you should check with an LHTR person for a clarification.  I suspect the wording in LHTR is a flaw; you shouldn’t be able to transfer AA guns from 1 ally to another, but that is what LHTR states.  A precise reading of LHTR 2.0 means you COULD transfer guns.  Bad, arbitrary change.  And it’s probably a mistake.  But I think Jen was right under LHTR.

    5. You write LHTR 2.0 is the “rules standard” for the site.  Wonderful.  Where is that posted?  Did I miss a sticky?

    BTW - This is exactly the kind of garbage created by not having a simple rule changes summary for LHTR.  Deviations from the standard rules should be MUCH easier to find than this.

    Thanks


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    LHTR is a complete replacement for the OOB Manual, Mazer.

    And yes, you can transfer ownership of an AA Gun just like you can an Industrial Complex.  Who ever owns the territory gets the AA Gun and the Industrial Complex there.  Not who invaded and took it over, whoever owns the land, that is, whomever collects IPC for it.



  • So Jen, you can’t link to where LHTR is the official standard for the forum?

    If you can’t, then you were wrong because you were assuming something about the conversation that wasn’t true.  If you were correct that LHTR is the official ruleset here, then I want to know so I can post correctly and fix my post.

    Where’s your link?  I’m sure you want to be right.

    Thanks


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Look at the tournament rules and the league rules.  The Moderators have all adopted LHTR as the official rule set for games here and when you start a game here, it is the assumed rule set. (Otherwise you’d have Germany winning in Round 1 in a majority of games due to broken out of the box rules.)

    As for any other post naming it official, all I can say is 2007 league rules, 2008 league rules, 2008 tournament rules and all the 2007 and 2006 tournament rules.  It’s as official as you can get.

    As I said, you may as well burn your copy of the box rules, no one uses them anymore.



  • Then for any debates concerning tournament threads at this site, you may be right.

    But this is the AA Revised forum, not the tournament forum.  Many people find this forum after opening up the box.  Box rules are the game’s starting point, so deviations from that need to be mentioned.  Deviations like LHTR.

    If all you have are vague references to tournament topics, that is not very compelling and I won’t be posting under assumed LHTR any time soon.  I’ll stick with the logical assumption of box rules.

    Thanks anyway.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Mazer:

    Then for any debates concerning tournament threads at this site, you may be right.

    But this is the AA Revised forum, not the tournament forum.  Many people find this forum after opening up the box.  Box rules are the game’s starting point, so deviations from that need to be mentioned.  Deviations like LHTR.

    If all you have are vague references to tournament topics, that is not very compelling and I won’t be posting under assumed LHTR any time soon.  I’ll stick with the logical assumption of box rules.

    Thanks anyway.

    Okay, then everything is moot.  Germany gets Long Range Fighters on G1 and takes England that same round.  Game over.



  • OK you two, knock it off.

    That could have been handled MUCH more civilly than it was.

    There was no reason to get accusatory or to try to belittle each other.  A simple “In LHTR yes, in OOB no” would have been sufficient to replace the last page of posts.

    Only warning for you both to cool it down a bit.



  • Okay, then everything is moot.  Germany gets Long Range Fighters on G1 and takes England that same round.  Game over.

    You are absolutely correct if we were talking about tech, Jen.  Now you are starting to understand how the forum should work.

    That’s why the very next sentence in a thread on tech would be, “of course every rule set fixes this, so you won’t see it in actual play much”.  The common starting point is the box rules, and then you list the rule change you need to fix the problem.

    You tried to list the fix first and ignored the common starting point of the box rules.  You also assumed that the fix was LHTR, which is also suspect.

    Thanks



  • @ncscswitch:

    There was no reason to get accusatory or to try to belittle each other.  A simple “In LHTR yes, in OOB no” would have been sufficient to replace the last page of posts.

    But Switch, how could I inflame my carpal tunnel syndrome without such long, enlightening posts?

    😄

    Ok.  Consider it cooled.

    Peace


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6992.msg108598#msg108598 date=1151365731

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6992.msg109220#msg109220 date=1151627127

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6992.msg208227#msg208227 date=1184198429

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6992.msg212163#msg212163 date=1185480150

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6992.msg214351#msg214351 date=1186008109

    quote author=DarthMaximus link=topic=10849.msg261215#msg261215 date=1199296118

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=10816.msg259707#msg259707 date=1198596228

    So yes, for the 1 or 2 people still playing OOB rules, you have to remember who owned what AA Gun at all times throughout the game.  However, it’s pretty established that the only valid rule set for games here (and it’s locked down in FoE and AAMC I believe for sure) is LHTR and that’s what we look too when it comes to a rule question.

    Mainly because you can do things like taken England on Round 1 with Germany then have 24 tanks driving on Moscow on Germany 2.

    Or because Super Fortresses + SBR = 16 IPC damage to Germany every round, no retaliation. (2 Bombers, of course, but who isn’t going to shell out 15 IPC to do 16 IPC dmg a round to Germany!?!?!?)  Rational is because the wording in OOB states you do the damage rolled or the amount of the land value whichever is HIGHER.

    These two are just a couple of the many examples why no one talks about the manual that comes in the box anymore.  It’s as if it does not exist.  Any reference to the manual from the box should always be preceded with the disclaimer that this is a rule FROM THE BOX, not from an established rule set that the majority of players use.

    I understand you work only with CSub really, and your vision is colored by the little yellow sheet of fixes that CSUB uses as a base.  We don’t have that sheet.

    I suggest, instead of trying to conform us to your way, you try to conform to our way.  it’ll be easier to change 1 person, then, what is it now, Switch, 16,000 people?



  • @Mazer:

    But this is the AA Revised forum, not the tournament forum.  Many people find this forum after opening up the box.  Box rules are the game’s starting point, so deviations from that need to be mentioned.  Deviations like LHTR.

    I agree!  LHTR players are a buncha deviants.  😉  No, seriously.  😉

    I keep saying posts should be directed to Out of the Box players with a nod towards FAQ and LHTR in this forum.  You know who you are, heretics!  :x

    Aw . . . don’t look at me like that . . . I still love u.  😄



  • You’re a crazy mofo paintbrush…always entertaining to read your…“posts.” I think you’re more like general in teh jenf0rces than a major!



  • This has got to be THE most UNFAIR situation EVER!

    Look, currently I’m +7/-5 on Karma for a net of +2, while NewPaintBrush is +34/-61 for a net of -27.

    I am 10 TIMES more obnoxious than he is, but where’s MY respect?

    +2.  It’s insulting.  WHAT’S A BROTHER GOTTA DO???

    I guess I gotta start killing owls.

    Maybe I’ll make me some bald eagle nachos…

    ya rly



  • And you thought I was chatty Mazer? o_O



  • +3 net.  Real original.  Didn’t see that coming.

    S.O.B….



  • 😛
    OK Mazer, I’ll give you a negative Karma for Typing in YELLOW print.
    You could have written anything, there is no way I could read it. 😐
      :roll:



  • thats what the “quote” button is for  😉



  • Yeah!  Now that’s what I’m talking about!

    Typing in small yellow font is EXACTLY the type of thing that should get you negative karma.

    CHOKE ON IT NPB!

    Back to just +2.



  • 😄
    LOL


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I have some good recipes for Spotted Owl, and fried Squirrel too!


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