My new plan for America, part 2, Tax reform

  • See the Nuclear Energy thread for the first part of this plan.

    This is all set on the same time table. As the country switches away from petroleum, a few more laws that have been begging to be changed must be changed. The idea is to put more money in the hands of the consumer.

    First off, the tax reform consists of 2 things. First, the abolition of Social Security. Its a failing system, and needs to be disposed of. Anyone over the age of 55 when this starts will still receive Social Security when they retire. This timetable will take 10 years. After 10 years, people stop paying their Social Security tax. Social Security takes up 17-30 percent of your taxes.

    The next change my seem radical. In fact, it doesn’t help the US economy, but the laws in place now are clearly unconstitutional. The Tax Brackets must be completely disolved. It is not fair to punish the successful. The Government should break even by doing this. However, every dollar saved by the wealthy here is another dollar spent. It will trickle down and even out the loss.

    Trickle down also works for the Social Security issue. People will have quite a bit more cash to spend. More money to spend, means more people investing in things, which means better quality and cheaper prices for the average consumer.

    The result, 20-30 percent more money out there being spent. Thats 20-30 percent more business, which helps the economy.

  • Oh my god Yanni! You’re two for two with me! 😮
    I actually agree with you. Any more of this, and I might have to vote you for president! (Yea, sure, that’ll be the day… 😉)

    You’re absolutely correct when you say that social security is a waste of our tax dollars. It’s simply a way for the government to get more tax dollars, and then pretend like they’re doing a good deed by paying you when you’re an old fogie. Cutting that tax, would probably help our economy in the long run also.

    Secondly, you’re right about the tax brackets. I’ve never believed in punishing the successful in this country, no matter how envious you get. Recently, I’ve heard lots of criticism about Bush’s 1.3 Trillion dollar (amount correct?) tax cut, and how it will only benefit the wealthy. Well, guess what people…who pays the most taxes?? If you don’t put in, why should you get anything out?

    Anyways, enough with the ranting…I agree completely with you Yanni.

  • I don’t know enough about the American tax structure, so one may well ignore this post.
    At the same time, you appear to be arguing for Reaganonomics which did not work at all. (note: Reagan did not even win a Nobel prize for his “economics”)
    Perhaps this just applies to the Canadian system (although i don’t know why it wouldn’t apply to the American system), however it’s been demonstrated that a dollar injected into the economy goes much further than a dollar that is not taxed. (not part of the economic proof, but i personally think that this would especially apply particularly if that dollar is saved by a wealthy person relative to being injected at a level where people more subjected to poverty would be able to access it).
    Wow - from right-wing moralistic Christian to bleeding heart liberal. Weird.

  • Yanny it is very obvious that you only have a high school education and do not understand economics. CC started to touch on where you are flawed. After you take a couple of economic classes, you will learn, it is not that simple. Take CC’s lead and just start by looking into the money multiplier.

    Your suggestion will only make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

  • Sign in…so we can see who’s making this criticism.

  • First off, I have a better understanding of the American economic system than 99% of High Schoolers. If you think I don’t know what I am talking about, correct me where I am wrong.

    Look, there is a reason I brought this up. I have quite of bit of money I invest myself (my college money, my parents let me handle some of it). I just pulled out a lot of the money, after making a rare profit in today’s economy. I made just under 1400 dollars, about 20% of my initial investment. However, I’m being taxed in the highest Tax bracket. I see that number go down to under 800 after Capital Gains. I could of walked away with over a thousand bucks if my parents were in a lower tax Bracket. Why the hell should how successful I am determine my tax?

  • You’re right, it shouldn’t.

    Most of this criticism to abolishing tax brackets is coming from the less-wealthy, and it most directed out of envy of the rich. They think that becuase they weren’t as successful (monitarily) in life, that the rest of society should chip in and pay their taxes for them. Bull-crap.

    Just becuase you have it, doesn’t mean you should be forced to spend it.

    This kind of ties into a comment I heard recently. Someone was trying to convince me that Bill Gates was an evil person. They told me that he was hoarding all his money and that he is only one person, and has no use for that much money. In rebuttle, I told them that he has donated more to AIDS research then the United States as a whole has. He has single-handedly funded “The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation”, the most wealthy and most-giving charity organization. Does he has a responsibility or a duty to do ANY of this? Absolutely not. It’s purely voluntary.

    So, the usual argument comes up…“The rich will only get richer and the poor will only get poorer.” Poor excuse. It’s all jealously anyways. Get off your ass and work for a living. The rich people didn’t get it handed to them on a silver-platter…why should you?

  • I don’t know about that. My family is quite wealthy (even by Canadian standards 🙂 ), and i have a considerable amount of equity (particularly for a medical student), and yet i don’t quite share your perspective Yanny or D:S.
    Yanny - i’m guessing that given your current status, income, etc. that you’ll get nearly all of that money back come tax refund time (ironic, that is).
    Also although i am clearly on the opposite end of the “pro-commie” spectrum, i think that the system off of which the wealthy became such is owed something in return. You are right - Bill Gates et al are under no earthly obligation to donate a single penny over their taxes. At the same time, they became wealthy off of other people, in a system that allowed them certain priveleges and rights, and it is fair that they pay back a proportional amount. For example, the publically funded education system appears to have benefitted them considerably more than many an inner school New Yorker, other benefits - loan programs, etc. are also in place to benefit these people, as well as regulations which protect both them (from getting shafted by others) and the public (from getting shafted by them). Given that these people require higher amounts of spending in terms of resources, that alone suggests they should pay higher taxes. Add to this the fact that we pretend to have a social conscience in this part of the world, and it would be wrong to not compel them to help others out, if even a little. America has enough of a reputation as a “really really big banana republic” without encouraging the kind of disparity that is already evident.

  • @cystic:

    Yanny - i’m guessing that given your current status, income, etc. that you’ll get nearly all of that money back come tax refund time (ironic, that is).

    I wish it were that way.


    it is fair that they pay back a proportional amount.

    Actually, that’s exactly my point. I think that they SHOULD pay a proporational amount. I think that everyone should pay the same proportional amount. Have a flat tax rate (percentage based of course) and it should work fine.

    Coincidentally, if you taxed everyone at the same rate (say 20% for example.) The poor would pay 20% of whatever they earn, and likewise for the wealthy. The wealthy will still pay more, but it will all be proportional. There’s no sense in charging some people 0% taxes (yea, that’s correct…many people don’t pay a DIME in taxes.) and then turn around and charge other’s extreme amounts such as 50%!

    Let me ask you this: If two people came into your store (one wealthy and one poor), would it be fair to charge one less than the other for the exact same product? Hell no, in fact, it could even be considered discrimination.

  • Oh, my g_d! I have to go back to another string to follow this? I’ll try again tomorrow.
    . . . and apologize in advance. - Xi

  • A) CC, Bill Gates got wealthy off of HIMSELF. YOU are the one who chose to spend your $ on his products.

    B) Yanny, I whole-heartedly agree with your original post about the abolition of SS. However, that plan simply will not pass Congress. It can be attacked from too many angles. Liberals will complain, “O my God, if you are 54 years old right now, and you vote for Yanny for president, ( eeeeevil Yanny) you will have squandered your own money, our national treasures, killed some ANWR reindeer, supported the cause of SUV owners, ETC.” If, however, you give a longer timetable to the abolition, you could make a convincing argument to the public, and when the voters really get behind it, your Congress will be forced into passing it.

    Keep up the good work.

    C) Don’t get me started on how socialistic the Canadien tax system is…

    D) Has anyone else heard about what Russia did this last January? They implemented a FLAT TAX. (13%!) Can you believe that!? Russia! Of all places! In another ten years, they will understand the American dream better than we can! Anyway, thier economy grew 64% in the first three months… I wonder why. (Reaganomics… which would have made the USSR collapse by '85 if the Congress had been liberal.)

  • See, these tax rules are the reasons I’m moving to New Hampshire after college (no income or sales tax, plus I got family there).

    I will not get a penny back on tax day. In my Parent’s tax bracket, just under 50% of my investment profit goes to Capital Gains.

    If a 54 year old man stops paying social security, at the national average of 55,000 dollars a year, he save more money from taxes than he will get back from social security. Some people have to make sacrifices for our nation to work. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

    Bill Gates donated 30 Billion (yes, billion) to African aid foundations. Thats more than our Government even donates to the entire continent combined, doubled.

  • :lol:

  • If the government needs x amount of dollars under its current system, where are all of the tax dollars going to come from if rich pay less tax? Are you suggesting that the lower and middle class pay a higher percentage to make up for it? I thought those classes already had enough problems making it as it is.

    I propose raising tax to the needed median for all. This means enough to stay on budget, but charge the same rate for all. No one will be paying more tax than when this plan started. Remember, we’re cutting our Social Security.

    The way I currently see our system, the higher your class and the more wealth you accumulate, the more you have to lose. Sure the lower class get’s benefits from the government, but if things go under, they do not have as much to lose. The upper class needs the government to protect their assets and way of life.

    Yanny, I cannot see where you have much to complain about. You have money to invest, (which is doing obviously well in today’s market) and you are living at home. It is not like you have a needed cashflow. .

    Well first off, I’m 15 🙂 The reason I am bringing this up is I lost a lot of my profit to my higher tax bracket. Say I make 100,000 dollars a year. In NJ, half of that is taxed by income tax in my tax bracket. However, if I made 60,000 dollars a year, only a third would be taken away by income tax. How is this fair? Success should not be punished by high taxes. Its not an issue of my age or my economic situation. It is an issue of an unconstitutional law that should be overturned.

    If you were so worried about those capital gains and having to pay taxes, you should have held onto your investment and rode the unrealized gain until you could file yourself and not under your parents. This would have saved you from paying the higher tax

    I saw an oppurtunity and seized on it. My stock had a fast point gain one day, I saw it, and sold it on the spot. Holding it for another 15 minutes would of lost me money.

  • The tax that really pisses me off is when you die, the government taxes you! Up to 50% of what you own! Gimme a friggin break…I JUST DIED?!!?

  • :lol:

  • [Evil Government]: Snickers Serves you right!

    But really, I don’t plan on having much when I die.

  • :lol:

  • What I will say that no SS might make for good economics but bad politics. Once you accomplished this (somehow), the liberals will brand you as a thief trying to rob the senior citizens of their savings.

  • No, I’m saying take the middle tax bracket and apply it for everyone. Taking away Social security will keep tax rates from getting impossibly high with this for everyone.

  • Plus the fact that you will have so many more poeple paying taxes who normally don’t. Hopefully it would balance itself out in the long run. Someone would have to do the math on this one…

  • :lol:

  • Communist Revolution! 😮

  • The Average American pays about 15% of their income to Social Security per year. If the Average American works for 40 years, they put a lot of money into Social Security. However, the amount of money they get back is an incredible low number. Someone like 1/30th of what you payed.

    So, would you rather put away your own money or let the Government do it and waste 29/30 of the money?

    Social Security is a failing system. The longer it stays around, the harder it will be to eliminate.

    Wild, explain to me why A) Social Security should stay how it is and B) Why the rich should pay a larger percentage of their money to the Government than everyone else.

  • :lol:

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