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Another look at the SAF IC


  • 2007 AAR League

    OK. I’ve decided to take a fresh look at this scenario since having a 2 page discussion debating it’s futility in a game thread. Bear in mind that 2 things have to happen for this potential strategy to have any appeal to me. At the end of G1, Germany’s Med fleet has to be in sz15 after supporting an Egypt landing instead of sz13 and the Baltic fleet is not reinforced. If either of those 2 conditions are not met, it would probably fail or at least be a bit harder to implement. Also keep in mind that it has an added twist in that I am perceiving it as being a KJF manouver to insulate the IC from a combined Axis assault.

    Denounce it, ignore it, spit on it, or pick up your dogs fresh steaming business with it. I don’t mind. Just be warned. There may be a pop quiz at the end so take notes. I would also recommend that you set up a typical (or atypical, your choice) “end of G1” map that fits my criteria. Then, and only then, make the UK moves I am suggesting
    to better pick up what I’m puttin’ down because it is quite wordy.

    So here’s what I’m thinking:

    1. Build 1 IC SAF, 5 inf UK.

    2. Strafe the Baltic fleet with with the UK aircraft stopping only after losing 1 fighter and then landing the fig in WR and the bomber in Persia.

    3. Do NOT hit Egypt with the India units. Move the whole Indian Ocean(hereafter known as IO) fleet to sz33, landing 2 inf in Kenya plus moving the inf from SAF up, as well as adding the IO fighter.

    4. Attack the Japanese SS in sz45 with the UK SS in sz40. Do whatever you want with the sz40 TP but I thought it would be best to try to move it unloaded or with 1 inf from NZe east toward Africa just to spread out the Japanese a little more if they want to hit it.

    5. Land 2 units into Algeria with the intent to reinforce with the sz10 US supporting fleet+ground landing and the E US fighter going to UK for a 1 turn defense to return to the Pacific on the next turn once the UK is safe from invasion and a UK CV is built(or not) on UK2 to cover the UK Atlantic BB/TP’s.

    6. Retreat the remaining inf+AA from India and T-J to Persia possibly supported by Russia if you are concerned with a German armor+air blitz there which I wouldn’t really be worried about but you might be, depending on who you’re playing. I’m not mentioning any names (Nix).

    The way it should look is:

    3 inf, 1 fig Kenya. Germany likely wouldn’t risk a 1 bmb, 2 arm attack there on G2 which is the maximum Germany can bring short of a 3rd bid armor placed in Libya.

    1 bmb, 3 inf, 1 AA Persia. Now, the UK not only has 2 units available from the IC every turn but also has 2 rounds of landings with the sz33 TP to unload in Kenya for added early defense or possibly into IEA or even Egypt from sz34 to slow Germany down until the IC is self sufficient.

    2 inf or 1 inf+ 1 art/arm in Algeria plus US forces. The 3rd African front to help harass Germany’s African units from all sides (Alg, Per, Ken).

    If the German fleet moves to sz16 to attack Europe or sz15 to unload another couple units into Egypt or T-J it will be threatened by the bomber in Persia, and 1 fig each from WR and Kenya, both of which can land either on the CV from sz33 moved to sz34 if the Med fleet is in sz15 or Caucasus if the Med fleet is in sz16. Even moving the Med fleet to sz13 or sz14 would offer no protection as it will come under threat from the UK fleet in sz12 supported by the Persian bomber as well as the US sz12 fleet. At that point, it wouldn’t really bother me to trade the UK Atlantic navy for the German Med fleet anyway, because in a KJF, Africa is always a big Cha-ching for Germany and the UK BB is likely to survive to take a German fighter with it in a counterattack so it would be more than worth it to probably secure Africa for good. And once that happened, the IC wouldn’t be wasted as the UK would be able to drive armor up into Asia or Europe or add units to the IO fleet and begin harassing Japan from the opposite side of the Pacific as the US.

    Alternately, you can forego the Baltic attack if Germany builds a CV there or even if you just don’t want to risk your aircraft and move both UK fighters to WR and instead keep the IO fighter on the CV in sz33 and not move the SAF inf to Kenya. That would give you the option of bringing a 3rd fighter to sz15 or sz16 which can land in Persia or Caucasus or using it to counterattack Kenya with the SAF inf+2 transported Persian inf if Germany blitzed Egyptian armor there.

    Even if you do have to move the UK fleet (1 CV, 1 DD, 1 or 2 fig +/- 1 TP) from sz33 to sz34 to land the fighters on UK2, it could be formidable enough to keep the Japanese from attacking it on J2 as they might not have enough units to safely attack it without losses they probably can’t afford as well as drawing a portion of their fleet at least 1 turn away from the Pacific where they would be badly needed to to fend off the oncoming US.

    I think with a little tweaking, that this opening could even be used with a KGF strategy as well. Again, with a priority placed on defense of the IC and destruction of the Med fleet, you could let the UK fight for at least the Southern half of their African IPC’s while the US prepares to make their landings through Norway instead of the Algeria landings and the slow crawl through north Africa. As long as Russia can at least keep trading Persia with Japan, the Japanese fleet wouldn’t be able to land in Kenya right next to the IC without having to spend extra money to set up a rotating transport system from India. And the remaining UK funds could be used to buy TP’s and ground units for Norway, with the TP’s covered by the US fleet, or to buy strictly air units for added defense of the IC if need be.



  • Good analisys. I would put the UK fig in eng instead wru for extra defense and because maybe USSR have to exit from wrus (thus giving the UK fig for free), but in general it’s a solid strategy. The indians to Kenya is new for me, but could work.

    The good of Safr IC is that UK only must spend 6-10 ipcs for fighting in Africa and the rest could be used in Europe, and the possible threat for Japan is interesting (combinated of course with Pacific builds for USA)


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    You’ve put a lot of thought into it.

    Anyway, just a thought of my own, the IC in S. Africa is still going to be used, even in KGF because Africa becomes a hunting ground for Japan later in the game.  If you have a large army there, you can build up in Kenya and Egypt and then slowly move your stacks forward into Persia securing Russia’s flanks.



  • Nice read, one thing I noted really quickly as I skimmed through was:

    3 inf, 1 fig Kenya. Germany likely wouldn’t risk a 1 bmb, 2 arm attack there on G2 which is the maximum Germany can bring short of a 3rd bid armor placed in Libya.

    Just wanted to say that if Germany is in the habit of taking Egypt hard and bid 1 arm to Libya, it is possible they will bring 1 inf 1 arm from S. Europe, which makes it 3 arm that can blitz to Kenya, not 2. I still don’t think they would be willing to take that attack, but just to clarify a small detail.

    I think with a little tweaking, that this opening could even be used with a KGF strategy as well. Again, with a priority placed on defense of the IC and destruction of the Med fleet, you could let the UK fight for at least the Southern half of their African IPC’s while the US prepares to make their landings through Norway instead of the Algeria landings and the slow crawl through north Africa. As long as Russia can at least keep trading Persia with Japan, the Japanese fleet wouldn’t be able to land in Kenya right next to the IC without having to spend extra money to set up a rotating transport system from India. And the remaining UK funds could be used to buy TP’s and ground units for Norway, with the TP’s covered by the US fleet, or to buy strictly air units for added defense of the IC if need be.

    Nicely worded.


  • 2007 AAR League

    U-505 good analysis…I concur.  I throw this out for discussion, what to do about the german med fleet.  On the one hand letting it live syphons off units from europe to africa, on the other hand taking it out opens up the med to threaten germany’s southern flank.  At first I thought letting it live was the best way to go, but now I’m having second thoughts.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    The med fleet only siphons off two German units.  To counter that, you need 4 allied units.  Sure, the allies can afford it, but Africa’s a second rate theater of operations, better to lock it down HARD and FAST with the Allies if you can, and that means killing the German fleet.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Funcioneta:

    Good analisys. I would put the UK fig in eng instead wru for extra defense and because maybe USSR have to exit from wrus (thus giving the UK fig for free), but in general it’s a solid strategy. The indians to Kenya is new for me, but could work.

    Thanks. I did consider the defense of the UK first. That’s why I suggested only landing 2 units into Algeria(my preference would be the arm from W Can and 1 inf from UK). Usually Germany only has 4 fighters and the bomber within range of the UK on G2 which would put them at 1 bmb, 4 fig, 1 inf, 1 arm against 6 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 AA, plus 1 US fig. Those are terrible odds even if the AA doesn’t hit. I made sure that the UK was adequately defended, but I can understand your concern and in this case you can always add the E US bomber for a turn, as well, because it usually doesn’t do much for the first few turns in a KJF, anyway.

    As for the Russians abandoning West Russia, I have rarely seen Germany be able to force Russia out of West Russia on R2 especially with the added defense of 1 or 2 UK fighters but, again, it is possible. If that does happen, though, you will see it before UK moves so you can avoid the attack on the Baltic fleet and just land the UK fighters in Russia where they can still perform their intended mission of killing the Med fleet on UK2.

    @Cmdr:

    You’ve put a lot of thought into it.

    Anyway, just a thought of my own, the IC in S. Africa is still going to be used, even in KGF because Africa becomes a hunting ground for Japan later in the game.  If you have a large army there, you can build up in Kenya and Egypt and then slowly move your stacks forward into Persia securing Russia’s flanks.

    Absolutely, but I wanted to focus more on the IC’s possible function in KJF, so I intentionally kept the KGF part short. In KGF, I was also thinking that once the IC is more or less secure, the UK could add a few ships to the IO fleet or even the Atlantic BB as well and send them around South America toward the Pacific to force the Japanese to pull ships away from sz34(making it easier to challenge for Africa) or possibly even force them to build high priced naval or air units instead of ground forces (which can be turned into partially wasted money by just turning the IO fleet back toward Europe or Africa).

    @Bean:

    Just wanted to say that if Germany is in the habit of taking Egypt hard and bid 1 arm to Libya, it is possible they will bring 1 inf 1 arm from S. Europe, which makes it 3 arm that can blitz to Kenya, not 2. I still don’t think they would be willing to take that attack, but just to clarify a small detail.

    Yeah, that was a concern, definitely. But that’s why I mentioned the possibility of the 3rd armor from the bid. But, like you said, most people wouldn’t risk attacking 3 inf, 1 fig with 1 bmb, 3 arm because it is almost as likely to go badly for Germany as it is for the UK. Even if the territory is cleared with the bomber surviving, it favors the UK because the IC is instantly secure as the closest Axis units would be whatever infantry is left from the initial Egypt attack which won’t reach the IC until G4 at the earliest and by then the UK has 4 units built there not including any surviving aircraft or the Persian inf that could be landed in Kenya. That battle would have to end up with at least 1 bmb, 2 arm surviving for it to be a serious problem and that is entirely too rare for me to be concerned about.

    @Emperor:

    U-505 good analysis…I concur.  I throw this out for discussion, what to do about the german med fleet.  On the one hand letting it live syphons off units from europe to africa, on the other hand taking it out opens up the med to threaten germany’s southern flank.  At first I thought letting it live was the best way to go, but now I’m having second thoughts.

    The main benefit of destroying it comes from the UK saving IPC’s by retaining or easily recapturing their African territories and limiting the length of time that Germany is able to collect that extra income. The best part about the Allies painting a target on the Med fleet is that Germany is always going to be reluctant to spend the money needed to prevent it’s destruction. Up until the last few weeks, I was stuck in the false mindset that the Med fleet is the BB/TP, but it isn’t. Just like Nix suggested, the Med fleet is the transport. Period. An unsupported BB in the Med is a paper tiger. It can’t go anywhere near the Atlantic without being subject to massive attack and it can’t perform it’s primary function( the bombardment) without the TP.

    When it came to the game that prompted this thread, it was primarily my failure with the US to put the highest priority on sinking that fleet that helped do us in. Looking back, I’ve concluded that when an SAF IC is built, using the UK bomber to retake Egypt and subsequently expose it to air attack on G2 is less important than sinking the Med fleet so I think it’s probably best to preserve the bomber and let Germany have Egypt if they really want it for the first turn. I agreed with you, at the time, that retaking Egypt was the best move but as soon as the UK bomber was destroyed, it should have dawned on me to make sure that the US took up the mantle in clearing the Med, but it went right over my head. The biggest reason I advocate, in this thread, saving the UK bomber is because it’s mainly about KJF and the US won’t be there to back up the UK. If it’s KGF, the UK bomber is less precious because the US can take that responsibility off UK hands. But, in the end, I’ve pretty much accepted that the Med fleet must die quickly when an SAF IC is built, no matter which country does it.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    The med fleet only siphons off two German units.  To counter that, you need 4 allied units.  Sure, the allies can afford it, but Africa’s a second rate theater of operations, better to lock it down HARD and FAST with the Allies if you can, and that means killing the German fleet.

    Exactly. Germany will always get a foothold. Just don’t let it become a stronghold. Sink the fleet before it can be used to reinforce Germany’s position and you can focus the US’s massive income on juicier targets, like Japan or Europe, instead of chasing Germany around Africa. And definitely do it before the Japanese can back them up. It’s far cheaper and easier to face off with the Axis in Africa separately than combined.



  • When I think of an IC in SAF, I would say no…!
    Isolated this is not an good solution.
    SA only gives 2 ipc, and to buy 2 tanks each rnd. is not good spending.
    2 inf or 1 inf + 1 tank/art each rnd, will that help you secure Afr for a small amount, where ipc’s can be spend better elsewhere?
    But with 15 ipc for IC + 6 ipc or 7/8 ipc each rnd, is this enough to keep out the Germans, and also Jap later in the game?

    If an IC SA is seen as a part of a bigger picture, then this move might become profitable although I still think
    it’s suboptimal.
    U-505, if you can find a way of combining an IC in SA with no need for US in Afr, after US1 or US2,
    and if allies close the med in AE, then you can use all UK+US forces in the north atlantic, threatening Berlin with a heavy 1-2 punch,
    as well as US helps Russia along with UK, now that can really threaten the G kalia stack, which seems to be one of
    the better strats for G.


  • 2007 AAR League

    That is exactly the goal of the strategy. Trade away any resistance in Asia to allow the UK to secure Africa almost single-handedly and free up the US to go after more important targets.

    Obviously it will have bugs that need to be worked out in real games. I’ll never say that any strategy is foolproof, but I’m nearly convinced that an SAF IC is not only possible but can be very helpful in a KJF if not also in KGF.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Anyone think about a German build of another transport in SZ 14?  Dumping 4 ground units into Africa seems like a lot, but Africa is also worth 4 ground units in value AND if you can get England and America to focus on Africa, who’s protecting Russia?



  • Anyone think about a German build of another transport in SZ 14?  Dumping 4 ground units into Africa seems like a lot, but Africa is also worth 4 ground units in value AND if you can get England and America to focus on Africa, who’s protecting Russia?

    That’s something almost everyone has thought about, but it is difficult, because you have to build protection for it or keep your bb/tran in that seazone that turn. That means you’re probably not offloading into Libya unless you want to get chewed up by the defense there or the Allied units in Algeria. Plus, you’re still going to attacked by 3 figs 1 bom from the US at some point, and the extra doesn’t help against that. It just siphons more units from Europe.

    Obviously it will have bugs that need to be worked out in real games. I’ll never say that any strategy is foolproof, but I’m nearly convinced that an SAF IC is not only possible but can be very helpful in a KJF if not also in KGF.

    Man strategies really do come full cycle, don’t they? Peter Morrison’s movies posted over two years ago advocate double ICs; one in UoSA and one in India to contest both Asia and Africa. He also advocated running away with the Baltic fleet. Interesting how old ideas get reincarnated like this.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yea, because strategies come around to defeat the new “wisdom”.

    Everyone said KJF was impossible, but that’s hardly been the case.  Hard, but not impossible.

    Everyone said Russia and half of England couldn’t box Germany in alone, but that’s almost easy now.

    Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.

    Everyone said Japan should reinforce Germany in the med to keep Africa

    Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.



  • Everyone said KJF was impossible, but that’s hardly been the case.  Hard, but not impossible.

    You continue to create strawmen. No one said it was impossible, just not optimal given normal dice.

    Everyone said Russia and half of England couldn’t box Germany in alone, but that’s almost easy now.

    You still can’t. You clearly haven’t shown that yet.

    Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.

    Oh really, is that why the Axis gets a bid?

    Everyone said Japan should reinforce Germany in the med to keep Africa

    That’s certainly one way to do it.

    Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.

    Of course, but that’s a pretty useless statement, that would be like saying the sun is hot. Why not give it some relevance, such as the sun is x degrees but due to x distance and the atmosphere we can manage to survive?

    Here is relevance: some people are less wrong than others, and that’s how the same people continue to get wins.



  • @Cmdr:

    Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.

    Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.

    How many times do people need to play revised before they understand that Afr belongs to allies, usually?
    That is if allies want it.

    And the KJF, Jen, I’m gonna write a letter to the American Psychiatric Association  (APA)
    in order to get the KJF acknowledged as a decease,
    so KJF will be listed as a behavioral disorder in the DSM V, and the ICD-11.  :roll:


  • 2007 AAR League

    do it and attack the german med fleet with 1 fig, 1 bmb.

    Then 70*% of the cases at least the trn sinks and in 46% of cases both trn/bb are killed.

    Harder for germany to put more people in africa, at the least he´s delayed for 1 turn.

    If UK and US moves jointly to Algeria they can kill the bb and any ship germany buys as a replacement.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    This isn’t a thread about the validity of KJF.  Needless to say, I’m currently running 67% wins 33% losses in KJF with two apparent wins on the horizon, barring abnormal dice.

    Anyway, back to the TOPIC, I don’t really see S. Africa Complex being very useful in KJF.  I see it very useful in KGF though.  And I could see how it would help box in Germany in a KJF situation, I’ve just never actually needed it to beat Germany into a box with just England and Russia.

    Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.



  • Needless to say, I’m currently running 67% wins 33% losses in KJF with two apparent wins on the horizon, barring abnormal dice.

    Win rate alone doesn’t validate the strategy. Your victory over me hasn’t even begun to dent my view on the strategy. I simply made a mistake in exposing the capital which could have easily been avoided, and you made a mistake in exposing Caucasus, but the difference is that if we both avoided those errors, that Japan is extremely tough to crack and has lots of income while Russia was boxed in on both sides with low income. I just didn’t see the possibility of the KJF.



  • @Cmdr:

    Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.

    Germany contained without US?
    Play me Jennifer, plz  😛


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Lucifer:

    @Cmdr:

    Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.

    Germany contained without US?
    Play me Jennifer, plz  😛

    It’s not so hard to imagine.  Germany earns 40 IPC.  Russia + England earn 54 IPC.  Japan earns 30 IPC.  America earns 42 IPC.  In both cases, the axis start out with a -15 IPC detriment.  From there it’s just a matter of positioning yourself so Germany cannot break out anywhere.

    Though I might consider a KJF with the IC in S. Africa.  Never even tried that one!



  • If I saw a SAF IC UK1 as the axis, I would pretty much feint africa and use the med fleet to push after Russia underneath.  The axis should ignore this investment by focusing on Russia exclusively as fast as possible.  I also would most certainly look to destroy any allied atlantic transports if I ever could.

    I think the Germany trying to fight/take africa is like power on power and unless this was Russia where the axis can do a 2 on 1, that is a losing proposition.

    So in short, Africa with a UK SAF IC, I’d fake interest, pull out after UK has invested some money and whallop Russia.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    The trick, of course, being that you have to be able to pull out.

    If there’s significant threat to Africa, you may not have anything TOO pull out, ya know?



  • @Cmdr:

    The trick, of course, being that you have to be able to pull out.

    If there’s significant threat to Africa, you may not have anything TOO pull out, ya know?

    stack up on AES with 4-6 units and ftrs… then bail.

    good thing wuold be to add another tpt sz14 on G2 if possible, really looking like you’re gonna put up a fight… move sz15 on G3, then empty G4 onward…

    Hello Ukraine


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    That could work, Axis, if you move that fleet to take India, Australia, New Zealand and Madagascar for Germany.

    Darth likes to do that with Germany anyway, I love to get away with it as well!



  • I played a multi player game not very long ago, (somewhat decent players) where G took a big part of Afr, Madagascar, Australia,
    N.Z., and Hawaii !! Don’t think they made it to Alaska…  :lol:
    Germany didn’t win the game though  🙂


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