Destroyed carrier and fighters



  • hi,

    one question came up in our latest game…

    if an defending/attacking carrier is destroyed do the fighters have to land immediately in a friendly territory if able or at the end of the combat if they survive/withdraw?

    thx!



  • They land at the completion of the battle.

    They can move 1 space to a safe landing zone.  If no landing zone is within range, they die at the completion of the battle.



  • thx!

    doesn’t the 1 space rule count only for defending fighters?
    1 space for attacking too or is there any other restriciton(movement range or something similar)?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I believe the 1 space rule only applies to the defender, yes.

    Attackers can continue moving provided they have movement spaces left to land in valid sea zones/land zones.



  • thx a lot guys  :mrgreen:



  • Jen is correct…

    The defending FIGs can move 1 space to land safely.

    Attacking FIGs can move the remainder of the allowed movement range.  If they have no moves left when they reach the battle (their only original landing choice was the AC that was lost during combat), or if no other landing zone is within range, they die.



  • additionaly i have one question

    lets say japan attacks the british fleet at india and india on the land way … the british fleet except the fighter is destroyed -> so the fighter can land in india due to the 1 space rule… can this fighter defend at the land fight? i guess not but im not sure…

    thx again guys


  • 2007 AAR League

    All combats are simultaneously it lands if able after all combats have been completed, in non.combat move phase.



  • Right, it actually does not land until the end of ALL combat.

    So in your example, it COULD land in India, IF India did not fall to the enemy that turn.

    If India did fall, and there was not an allied AC in a SZ adjacent to SZ35, then the FIG would die.



  • @ETPlayer:

    hi,

    one question came up in our latest game…

    if an defending/attacking carrier is destroyed do the fighters have to land immediately in a friendly territory if able or at the end of the combat if they survive/withdraw?

    thx!

    I’ve asked this same question in two A&A forums:

    http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1199&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=8

    http://aamc.net/bunker/forumsql/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=217



  • @ncscswitch:

    Right, it actually does not land until the end of ALL combat.

    So in your example, it COULD land in India, IF India did not fall to the enemy that turn.

    If India did fall, and there was not an allied AC in a SZ adjacent to SZ35, then the FIG would die.

    A couple follow-ups…

    1. Does the fighter still roll defense in the SZ combat before retreating?

    2. The fighter can retreat regardless of how many attacking units remain in the SZ combat, correct? (This is the only instance of a defending unit “retreating” from a battle without being shot at that I can think of)



  • The defending FIG does not have the choice to retreat.  It remains until the end of the battle.

    The only time the defending FIG move comes into play is if the FIG survives the battle either by
    A) the attacker is destroyed or
    B) the attacker retreats.



  • @ncscswitch:

    The defending FIG does not have the choice to retreat.  It remains until the end of the battle.

    The only time the defending FIG move comes into play is if the FIG survives the battle either by
    A) the attacker is destroyed or
    B) the attacker retreats.

    Well hell…my friends and I have been doing that one all wrong for quite a while now!  😛

    Ya learn something every day.  🙂


  • 2007 AAR League

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…



  • @mateooo:

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…

    Since there is no DD present, the carrier is sunk in opening fire.
    According to LHTR, subs can submerge AFTER any round of battle as long as no enemy DD is present.  This implies the ftrs do indeed get to fire upon the sub.

    Of course, you could also w/d after the round of battle if the sub survived as well (instead of submerge)
    –-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Other variant rules allow your more realistic observation of a true sneak attack, like A&ARe (Enhanced)…

    sorry shameless plug there  :mrgreen:



  • @ncscswitch:

    Attacking FIGs can move the remainder of the allowed movement range.  If they have no moves left when they reach the battle (their only original landing choice was the AC that was lost during combat), or if no other landing zone is within range, they die.

    Oh, so in combat move phase you can actually use all 4 movement points of a fighter? (if you have or will have aircraft carrier in the destination combat space)



  • @tekkyy:

    @ncscswitch:

    Attacking FIGs can move the remainder of the allowed movement range.  If they have no moves left when they reach the battle (their only original landing choice was the AC that was lost during combat), or if no other landing zone is within range, they die.

    Oh, so in combat move phase you can actually use all 4 movement points of a fighter? (if you have or will have aircraft carrier in the destination combat space)

    yes, but then if you w/d from that battle, the ftrs that moved 4 can not come with you.



  • Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.



  • @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    Yahoo!

    I’m 2 for 2… quiz me some more 🙂


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Which is why, if you have 4 fighters and 2 went max distance, and you have to retreat, kill the ones that are bingo fuel first!



  • @axis_roll:

    @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    Yahoo!

    I’m 2 for 2… quiz me some more 🙂

    What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?



  • What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?

    Is that a long range European coconut-laden swallow or an Jet Fighter African swallow?



  • @Bean:

    What is the range of a coconut-laden swallow?

    Is that a long range tech coconut-laden swallow or an African swallow?

    I don’t know……AAAAAAAaaauuuuuggggg


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    Axis roll is correct in that if you move 4 spaces to combat, and the AC withdraws, the FIGs cannot retreat.

    Also, you cannot partial retreat.

    So once you pull back the ships, the FIGs also disengage from combat, even though they cannot leave the sea zone.

    And to the prior question… yes the 2 FIGs would get their defensive rolls on the SUB.

    I’m not disagreeing, but this is inconsistent with how other units retreat:

    When an Inf retreats, it has moved its full amount.
    A tank can retreat whether it has moved 1 or 2 spaces.
    In fact, you can retreat to a territory on the other side of the target territory, provided that attacking units also came from that territory. eg. UK units attack Karelia from Norway and Archangel and UK tanks from Moscow, and then retreat. All units can retreat to Norway. You end up with Infantry that have moved 2 and Arm that have moved three, and this through hostile territory yet!

    Where in LHTR does it say that Ftrs have different retreat rules?

    Also re: subs firing:@axis_roll:

    @mateooo:

    quick question, probably an obvious answer

    SS attacks AC 2 FTR
    sub hits in the first strike round, and kills the AC
    do the fighters get to strike back?
    Im sure the answer is yes, but I would think it makes more sense to say no

    that sub attacks before anyone knows its there. those fighters dont get a chance to take off… in real life.
    of course it does take a little while for a carrier to sink…

    Since there is no DD present, the carrier is sunk in opening fire.
    According to LHTR, subs can submerge AFTER any round of battle as long as no enemy DD is present.  This implies the ftrs do indeed get to fire upon the sub.

    With respect, when the subs submerge has nothing to do with whether the Fighters are still alive to fire at them. If they sank with the AC, it doesn’t matter when or whether the subs submerge.

    However, Mateoo makes a good point - it can take a while for an AC to sink. Perhaps the air units are patrolling anyway. The question is, when do Ftrs launch? Before the opening fire step? After it? During it?



  • Pg 14 of LHTR 2.0:

    Air units withdraw by “disengaging” and staying in the contested space. Only air units do this.
    They must complete their withdrawal by moving to a friendly space in the noncombat movement
    phase. If they do not have sufficient movement points left in their total allocation to do this they
    are destroyed.

    Pg 16 of LHTR 2.0

    Return disengaging air units to the game board contested space. Air units complete their
    withdrawal in the noncombat movement phase by moving to any friendly space within the
    remainder of their total movement range.
    A fighter can complete its withdrawal to a friendly aircraft carrier or to a friendly sea zone, as
    long as a carrier moves there this turn.
    You may have planned to have your fighter end its total movement for that turn at the contested
    sea zone. You moved the fighter its full movement point allowance to reach the sea zone in
    combat movement. You had intended to have a carrier there to pick it up before the conclusion of
    this turn. If you withdraw your units from this sea battle, your fighter disengages from battle as
    per the paragraphs above, but it has expended all its movement points with no place to land and is
    lost and removed from play.
    Your fighter is permitted to complete its withdrawal in a sea zone adjacent to an industrial
    complex you own if you have purchased an aircraft carrier that turn and will subsequently place
    that carrier in the sea zone where your fighter ends its turn.


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