• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Bean:

    That was beautiful Jen…

    At the risk of finding out, beautiful good or beautiful bad? (In your individual opinion. 😛  In my individual opinion I think I summed up the entire American culture, spirit and way of life.)


  • why do we need social programs and chiarites then? its a lot harder to be a have if you grew up in teh projects and never owned a dollar untill you were 18 than if your father is bill gates. nay way i think we have defierant defintions of haves and have nots. my definstion are those that do not have. as in they are poo, destitute without the ability to feed and warmth there family.


  • Beautiful good.  🙂

    If I were being sarcastic I would make a point of not being misinterpreted.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @cyan:

    why do we need social programs and chiarites then? its a lot harder to be a have if you grew up in teh projects and never owned a dollar untill you were 18 than if your father is bill gates. nay way i think we have defierant defintions of haves and have nots. my definstion are those that do not have. as in they are poo, destitute without the ability to feed and warmth there family.

    Oh yea, it was so peachy growing up in the slums of communist Russia.  I just had everything given to me on a silver spoon.  Sorry, I forgot that part of my life….you know, the part where I was given everything including a free download of information right into my skull so I wouldn’t have to learn anything.

    We don’t NEED social programs.  I’d even argue that social programs do more to KEEP people from achieving more havingness then anything else.

    Lineage also has no bearing.  John Rockefeller became someone with exceedingly strong havingness despite growing up in the slums.  So did many people.  This entire nation was built by people who thought they were have nots and attempted to become haves.  There was no social programs for them, there were charities, they were called Church.  They lived in their version of the projects (a backwater colony exceedingly far from civilization inhabited by murderous natives (or so they thought.))

    America has no have nots, even by your definition.  Even if you are completely without physical possessions in this nation, you have your life and the skills you learned during it.  You have the ability to go to a shelter to go to a soup kitchen to go to a free medical clinic.  Your have nots live like kings compared to the have nots of other countries, my friend.  There were no free medical clinics in Kiev with good doctors in them like here.  Not while I lived there!  The GOOD doctors (aka the ones who didn’t try to rape or molest you each visit and actually owned a medical book, maybe even read it once or twice) all worked for the politicians/police/military.  Though, every home was a soup kitchen, we couldn’t afford anything BUT SOUP.  I hate friggin soup!

    You know your poor in this nation average two color television sets and a car!  Your POOR!  The low lifes, the ones you are telling me are have nots.  They have televisions and cars!  I lived on a flat with three other families and our television was ourselves acting out plays in the dirt and kicking the bugs around.  Don’t even tell me about how bad Americans have it.  It will fall on deaf ears here.  I’ve seen more trials and tribulations then most Americans can even think about.  And what’s worse, there are countries that thought I lived like a queen because once a week I got 4 ounces of meat as my allotment from the government.

    All Americans are Haves.  There are no Americans that are have nots.  None.  Not a single one.  The mentally insane guy in the sanatorium with no family who thinks bugs are trying to eat his testicles but has American citizenship is a Have.  Why?  Because he has citizenship, that means he owns the government in part.  That means he has someone in office looking out for him.  He has a medical system of trained doctors and nurses who provide nourishment and shelter every day of every week until he dies.  It may not be the best shelter and nourishment, but he still HAS it making him a HAVE, not a have not.



    @Bean:

    Beautiful good.  🙂

    If I were being sarcastic I would make a point of not being misinterpreted.



    Then I thank you. 🙂  Just with the bickering in another thread tween us, I wanted clarification. No offense intended.

  • 2007 AAR League

    people make terrible decisions in life cyan.  you can choose in highschool to take mass amounts of drugs, get horrible grades, not get accepted to a college, continue to take drugs, and not be able to hold a job.  then you need welfare.  at least half of the people on welfare have only themselves to blame for their problems.

    and if you grow up in the projects, who’s to keep you from getting a job.  find one at the Mcdonalds, its a start.  then take highschool SERIOUSLY and get out of the projects by going to college.  then never come back to the projects.  just b/c people dont this, there’s not someone/something to blame.  only themselves.

    trust me, at my age of 22, i know i could have done my highschool and college a lot differently.  like actually play rugby and such.  i just never got around to it.  i could of joined a frat, boned a lot of sorority girls,  just b/c that didnt happen doesnt mean there is anyone to blame.

    jen is saying all americans are haves b/c ALL americans have the same OPPORTUNITY.  sadly and truly, many squander theirs.

  • 2007 AAR League

    oh yeah, Gupta, the owner of InfoUsa, started in a freakin garage w/ an idea.  he’s a billionaire now.


  • everyone has oppurinty I just feel like some have it easier than others. like certian brats doing drugs their whole live and leaving out of mommy’s and daddy’s pockett book. this discussion reminds me or pursuit of happiness. its a really good movie. but what about all the homeles that live in places like in NEw york . I would say thier have nots.


  • the problem with just looking at the post-9/11 post recession recoevry of the dow is that its short term thinking. Had the dow dropped to 2,000, then rebounded back to 4,000, jen would probably declare it a victory (its more than doubled its value!). looking at the picture long-term, it would be a disaster. long-term views lead to different conclusions:

    historically the dow averages 9% growth. from the peak of the bull market of the 90s (11700), the dow has done horribly. its grown 1% in the LAST EIGHT YEARS.

    Now part of that is a natural corection to an artifical run-up during the 90’s. but as NCS pointed out, there are fundamentals of the econonmy that are troubling. if we want to look short-term, as Jen likes to:
    DOW near end of 2003: 11,000
    DOW near end of 2007: 13,000
    16% growth over a 4 year period. well below the historic 9% growth rate per year.

    and the dow is only one component of the picyture. Median income still hasn’t recoverd from 1999. thats far more telling than how the corporate world is doing. offhand, I cant think of a time period where median income has been stagnant for such a long period of time (8 years). maybe during the late 70’s-early 80’s? that is troubling for a consumer driven economy like ours, with housing collapsing and gas skyrocketing.

    Balung, youre 22. I was voting for Reagan before you were born. grow a little chest hair before you question my belifs.

    As a side note, isnt intetersting how everyone on the internet is as good as Warren Buffet, but in real life most people carry thousands in credit card debt and cant balance a checkbook? funny how that is.


  • shouldn’t judge people on there age smacktard. ( if you knew my age you’d spit at whatever i said) judge people on thier abilities not anything else and all that type jazz.  but teh dow has been growing pretty slowly. but the stock market that isn’t the mst troubling but I think cost of living is going to sky rocket while wages stay the same.  I think switch said this allready talking about how the dollar is falling and affecting everything else.


  • Another whippersnapper mouths off. Jk  :lol: you’;re right. still a 22 yr old has only lived in the real world a short while. theres much to learn young jedi.

    The dollar is a mjor concern. did you see the Canadian dollar passed us up? we NEED countries to buy our bonds & fund our extravagent spending. if they start dumping dollars, were screwed.

    I was glancing through the have/ have not discussion. 25% of the homeless are vets.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,309416,00.html
    unbelievble that we would let our veterans down in such a way. i guess they should have invested in the market.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Isn’t this a political discussion? :mrgreen:


  • Just to keep it light…

    YO MOMMA’S a political discussion  😮

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Smacktard:

    the problem with just looking at the post-9/11 post recession recoevry of the dow is that its short term thinking. Had the dow dropped to 2,000, then rebounded back to 4,000, jen would probably declare it a victory (its more than doubled its value!). looking at the picture long-term, it would be a disaster. long-term views lead to different conclusions:

    historically the dow averages 9% growth. from the peak of the bull market of the 90s (11700), the dow has done horribly. its grown 1% in the LAST EIGHT YEARS.

    Now part of that is a natural corection to an artifical run-up during the 90’s. but as NCS pointed out, there are fundamentals of the econonmy that are troubling. if we want to look short-term, as Jen likes to:
    DOW near end of 2003: 11,000
    DOW near end of 2007: 13,000
    16% growth over a 4 year period. well below the historic 9% growth rate per year.

    and the dow is only one component of the picyture. Median income still hasn’t recoverd from 1999. thats far more telling than how the corporate world is doing. offhand, I cant think of a time period where median income has been stagnant for such a long period of time (8 years). maybe during the late 70’s-early 80’s? that is troubling for a consumer driven economy like ours, with housing collapsing and gas skyrocketing.

    Balung, youre 22. I was voting for Reagan before you were born. grow a little chest hair before you question my belifs.

    As a side note, isnt intetersting how everyone on the internet is as good as Warren Buffet, but in real life most people carry thousands in credit card debt and cant balance a checkbook? funny how that is.

    You’re making a false premise here.  Historical averages, as I tried to point out, cannot be made equal to each other over long periods of time in regards to the Stock Market.  Only actual points can.  8% of $100 is only $8.  Anyone can make $8 just by working for 1 hour in Illinois!  8% of 10,000 is $800!  That’s significantly more money!  The same $8 of the original 100 is 8% but against the 10,000 it’s only 0.08%!

    So to slam the current market because it’s growth in points is ONLY 10 times what the average is over the life of the program is just plain silly!  You have to look at the actual numbers of grown just as you would your actual dollars in your bill fold.  I don’t care if you made 20% profit on the dollar you had yesterday!  But if you made 1000 dollars on 10,000 dollars you had yesterday, that’s a lot more!  Sure, percentage wise you made 20% on a dollar vs 10% on 10,000 dollars, but the actual take home is significantly more on the 10,000 then the 1.

    Anyway, I never claimed to be Warren Buffet or as good as him.  I have 0 in credit card debt because I only carry one card (max is $300) for use establishing revolving credit history.  Anyone who carries more credit card debt then they earn in a week is stupid.  (I make more then $300 a week obviously, but I don’t spend more then $300 on gas and oil changes a week, which is all the card is used for.)

    Investing in the market is also not brain surgery.  Just apply some forward thinking.  Not to get into politics, but if certain politicians appear to be winning the Presidency, leading us towards nationalized health care, then I wouldn’t recommend buying stock in pharmaceutical companies.  If someone’s getting elected and is pounding the lectern at every event rallying the nation to go to war, maybe you should purchase defense industry stocks.

    Things I don’t invest in anymore (because they do worse then what I do invest in!) are gold and oil.  They’re near their cap and could fall at any minute.  All President Bush and the Democratic Congress, has to do is get a bill passed opening up the Gulf or Alaska to domestic companies to drill and the price of oil per gallon can realistically fall 30-45% over night.  That’s a lot of risk if you ask me.  Hearing aids, long term, low risk.  With people blowing loud music directly through ear buds into their ears loud enough to drown out train horns resulting in their death, hearing aids are gunna be huge business.

    Just apply some common sense and do NOT follow the crowd.  People who follow the crowd buy high and sell low.  (They sell when the crowd moves on, meaning no demand anymore.)

  • 2007 AAR League

    ugh, the dollar is being depreciated on purpose everyone. to reset the trade imbalance.

    didnt anyone notice that with our cheap dollar, our exports are becoming bargains(like china), and our trade deficit is the best its ever been.  and that means more people keep their manufacturing jobs here.

    there’s always a second glance to see what else is going on.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Interesting theory, Balung.  I’m not a subscriber to it, yet, need more details.  But it’s interesting.

    Also by forcing all the debt right offs before the bankruptcy law changes it removed a lot of profit from the creditors which probably did a lot of devalue the dollar.  No confidence behind it with all the bankruptcies. 😛

  • 2007 AAR League

    and also for debt.  its an old trick.

    say we owe 2 trillion or however much dollars.

    if what was one dollar now takes two dollars to make as much, we have halved our debt in half, and the people who we owe it to get pissed.  but thats fine.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Well, that’s true.  But to be honest, how much do we owe to France?  Can’t we just say “Hey France, what language do you speak now?  French?  You’re very welcome, how about we don’t owe you anything, period.”

    That should eliminate some of it.

  • 2007 AAR League

    if we were to make all countries went lent cash to in WWI and WWII pay us back, we’d have no debt.  we should bitch slap those europeans into paying us.  or else if we owe any of them money, just write it off as a non issue.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t think America lent that money, I think America borrowed the money and then GAVE it to Europe which is where a large portion of the national debt began.  Though, I’ve never taken a course in the history of American Government Economics.  To be honest, I never would take such a course, I prefer 1+1 equaling 2.  not 1+1 equals $1000 in spending and $3000 in loans and 27% interest compounded daily.


  • @balungaloaf:

    if we were to make all countries went lent cash to in WWI and WWII pay us back, we’d have no debt.  we should b**** slap those europeans into paying us.  or else if we owe any of them money, just write it off as a non issue.

    I think only Britian payed us back I  remeber hearing about it in the news like during the summer or something.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @cyan:

    @balungaloaf:

    if we were to make all countries went lent cash to in WWI and WWII pay us back, we’d have no debt.  we should b**** slap those europeans into paying us.  or else if we owe any of them money, just write it off as a non issue.

    I think only Britian payed us back I  remeber hearing about it in the news like during the summer or something.

    England’s full of good chaps.

    France has one good chap I know of, Sarkozy.  (Sounds like a Russian name….)

    Anyway, if we could get them to pay us back so we can pay down some of our foreign debt, that would really speed things along.  Though, I like the idea of thinking my current government is smart enough to cause a recession to devalue the dollar and then pay off the debt, I fear it’s more likely they will increase spending and print more money instead.

    BTW, I would have no problem with the national debt doubling if all that debt was to American citizens and companies wholly owned by American citizens.  At least then the interest would be boosting our economy, not dragging it down.

  • 2007 AAR League

    actually, finland was the only country of both wars, theirs being after WWI, to pay back America for its loans.  they are still proud of this fact.

    and in actuality, it was our money lent to the europeans during both wars, and it was never paid back.  they said their blood was payment enough.  but we didnt have to win their wars for them, pay us back.  look at the marshall plan to save much of europe from communism, even that wasnt paid back.

    our debt should be solved this way.


  • So the answer to our 9 trilion $ national debt is collect on loans from europe from 60 and 90 years ago? and if they dont pay I guess well point some ICBMs at them?

    Frances budget last year was 300 billion euros. Germany’s was 260 billion. Britain recently paid off its ww2 debt.

    since were in lala land, how would the repayment schedule for these countries look?


  • @balungaloaf:

    actually, finland was the only country of both wars, theirs being after WWI, to pay back America for its loans.  they are still proud of this fact.

    and in actuality, it was our money lent to the europeans during both wars, and it was never paid back.  they said their blood was payment enough.  but we didnt have to win their wars for them, pay us back.  look at the marshall plan to save much of europe from communism, even that wasnt paid back.

    our debt should be solved this way.

    the US not having to speak nazi and eat sasuages all the time is payment enough. Europe would of been a horrid place if we let germany win either of the world wars. We helped our allies survive against the crazy regimes that attacked them. thats what allies do. I would much rather rebuild London from being bombed rather than Washington and Paris brutally occupied instead of NEw york. but getting off topic.

    so how do you think we should stop the US dollar from deflating? and also I know the pound is worth twice as strong as the dollar so does that mean the UK has twice as good of an economy?


  • OK, I tried to let this run, but it simply has far too much of a political element.

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

80
Online

15.1k
Users

35.9k
Topics

1.5m
Posts