What to do with the German Bomber?


  • 2007 AAR League

    In most games I use the G Bmb to take EGY on round  1, help out in a “trade” battle on the Eastern front on turn 2, and turn 3 onwards it runs SBR bmbing missions. But I am getting tired of being shot down after 1-2 SBR missions, and Germany needs planes in order to trade territory with the Ruskies.

    How do you play the German bmb?



  • @Perry:

    and Germany needs planes in order to trade territory with the Ruskies.

    How do you play the German bmb?

    exactly as you indicated.

    Don’t risk the German bomber.
    It’s range can be very effective in africa or also if staged in Western, a good deterrent to a single allied tpt roaming the atlantic.  I’d risk the 1 there for $8.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Yeah, i suppose that’s the way to play…
    Too bad it took me three years of revised playing to come to that conclusion  :roll:


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I use the bomber in Egypt, actually.



  • If you trust averages the bomber, or any plane, does 5 successful bombings before dying to AA. With 3.5 IPC per strike that makes 17.5 IPC for its useful life. 6 less enemy inf are MUCH more valuable than the support value of 1 bmr when the attack will come.

    So my priorities are:

    1. Help close naval battles, or easy long range lone strikes (1bmr vs 1-2 tra)
      1’) Keep it around with fighters as a threatening mass to force enemy fleet defense.
    2. Help decisive land battles (if there is one - rarely until the end - and bomber survives until then) or even strafes (weakening hit-and-runs) if no defending AA
    3. Help swapping territories - if enough enemy troops are exposed (for instance, 2inf 1ftr 1bmr is overkill against 1inf, but 1inf 1bmr is just right)
    4. Bomb target capital (i.e. Moscow) until shot by AA.

    This applies to all powers except Russia.

    The real trade-off is between 1’) sitting as naval threat and 4) bombing.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Oh I dunno, Egypt can be pretty decisive.  If Germany doesn’t close the canal, then Germany can write off ever getting Africa!

    Later, I like to use the bomber either against Russia’s industrials (if I have rockets) or like I would a fighter, as in air support for infantry reclaiming land.

    Reason I say if I have Rockets is because the bomber + 2 rockets against Russia should average 10-11 IPC in damage with a 17% chance of the bomber being lost to AA Fire.



  • I usually use the bomber in Egypt and after I use it in the trade of Russian territories.
    I rarely use the bomber in SBR.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I stopped doing sbrs after I got 3 german bombers shoot down in a single turn to AA gun fire.  (2 went to russia, 1 went to cauccasus)….

    Use it in Egypt, and along with the other figs in raids on navy or trades on russian front, good deterrent to lone trn´s in atlantic.



  • The BOM is generally best used against ground forces.

    Using a BOM for SBR is a nearly 17% chance per run of losing a $15 BOM in order to do an average $3.5 of damage.  Over many games, that will average out to a slight boost in terms of economic trade to the nation doing the SBR.  But the risk of loss of the BOM against AA fire is high.

    Using a BOM for land combat, when adequately protected by ground units, is a MUCH better trade.

    If you have enough ground forces, and are not attacking AA protected territories, your risk to your BOM is minuscule (total dice fracks being the only real risk, and you can still retreat once your ground fodder is gone to avoid minor dice fracks)

    Used for ground combat, the BOM will do $6 of damage to your opponent (2 dead INF) per 3 rounds of combat.  It will shorten battles by killing defenders faster (preserving your own units).

    SBR MAY be the best use of a BOM if you get a free-roll (no AA gun present) against an opponent, but even then it depends on how beneficial the BOM would be in other combat being conducted that round (You are probably better off bringing the BOM to a battle that will go 2 or more turns than you are using it even for a free SBR).  There are of course exceptions, but the above is a good general rule.

    Finally, even on rounds when teh BOM is not needed for combat, I still think twice about doing an SBR against an AA protected target.  Sure, the BOM may not have anything to do THIS turn, but what about next turn, or 3 turns from now?  If I send it on SBR, I have a 1 in 6 chance to lose it, and then it will not be available for later attacks.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I have to mention, however, that doing SBRs can be effective if you can afford to lose the bombers.

    Let’s say England is an island locked nation, you dominate Africa, Germany and Japan are at Moscow’s borders, but the allies have dumped too much there for you to attack for the next few rounds.  Why not SBR Russia and make it that much easier to take later?



  • Used for ground combat, the BOM will do $6 of damage to your opponent (2 dead INF) per 3 rounds of combat.  It will shorten battles by killing defenders faster (preserving your own units).

    SBR MAY be the best use of a BOM if you get a free-roll (no AA gun present) against an opponent, but even then it depends on how beneficial the BOM would be in other combat being conducted that round (You are probably better off bringing the BOM to a battle that will go 2 or more turns than you are using it even for a free SBR).  There are of course exceptions, but the above is a good general rule.

    This is all very good analysis, but I would like to add that one must think how many rounds you think the bomber will actually participate in combat. Think about it - there are precious few engagements that are going to last more than 2 rounds of combat (unless your enemy likes to expose himself more than simply trading), so it may be more difficult than one thinks to get the worth out of a bomber by attacking military targets.



  • In a single round, yes the BOM will likely only engage in 1 round of combat… if you planned your combat well.

    But that 1 round is enough to usually get you $3 of dead enemy INF… WITHOUT RISK OF LOSS BY AA FIRE.

    It takes SIX TURNS on average to kill only $1.5 extra enemy forces over the value of your BOM using SBR.



  • It takes SIX TURNS on average to kill only $1.5 extra enemy forces over the value of your BOM using SBR.

    Well… by your own reasoning you said earlier that you kill 2 inf per 3 rounds, so per 6 rounds it’s 4 inf. 4 inf is $12 IPCs, which isn’t recovering the cost of the bomber. At least in 6 turns I’ll get more than the returns on the bomber for SBR. I realize that the bomber can potentially participate in more rounds of combat per turn so it might rack up those 6 combats faster than the 6 turns, but that shouldn’t be happening unless there’s luck involved - either the enemy took trading zones with more units than expected or made mistakes with overextending.

    I used to think like you did, like everyone thinks actually, but I think it is a little bit more complex because it is rare to get into large combats where the bomber hits lots of military targets. It’s useful in trading no doubt but your fighters could do about the same.

    Just a little bit more complex, because I would still usually keep the bomber for trading and strafing runs for the reasons you stated.



  • Per TURN OF COMBAT not per game turn.

    Somewhere in that 6 game turns that is required to get the average $1.5 gain from SBR’s, you would fight a couple of combats that run 2+ rounds of combat.

    So you get the 4 dead INF (on average) faster than 6 game turns since you only need six COMBAT rounds to obtain that average result.

    And again, 4 dead INF over 6 combat turns, if played correctly, is a NET $12 increase because you STILL have your BOM, while the $1.5 average increase over 6 tuns of SBR includes the loss of the BOM.

    In a single game, sure you can get hot dice and SBR the snot out of your opponent.  But after 50 or 100 or more games, the law of averages kicks in, and killing INF adds up easier, safer, and FAR FASTER than SBR damage…  all without risk to a $15 asset.



  • Per TURN OF COMBAT not per game turn.

    Somewhere in that 6 game turns that is required to get the average $1.5 gain from SBR’s, you would fight a couple of combats that run 2+ rounds of combat.

    Don’t make Jen’s mistake of not reading something I already posted.

    I quote myself here, because I already knew you would try to make the argument:

    I realize that the bomber can potentially participate in more rounds of combat per turn so it might rack up those 6 combats faster than the 6 turns, but that shouldn’t be happening unless there’s luck involved - either the enemy took trading zones with more units than expected or made mistakes with overextending.

    And again, 4 dead INF over 6 combat turns, if played correctly, is a NET $12 increase because you STILL have your BOM, while the $1.5 average increase over 6 tuns of SBR includes the loss of the BOM.

    But you do not have to pay for the loss of your bomber. You do not have to spend 15 IPCs to replace it, because you never spent the cash to build it in the first place. The enemy is looking at less IPCs if you SBR rather than if you just use the bomber in one turn combats, which is the most likely situation. But this is of course only if you can spare your bomber, which may not happen depending on the first couple rounds of necessary attacks.

    If the bomber participates in more than one turn combats, it is only because either the enemy got lucky and took the territory with more forces, in which case you NEED the extra returns just to catch back up, or theh enemy made a mistake in overtaking a territory.



  • But the loss of the BOM is still loss of a combat unit… one with tremendous range AND punch.

    So long as the BOM lives, you add 1 kill to every attack you make.
    So long as the BOM lives, your opponent cannot leave unguarded TRN’s within range

    Let’s say for sake of argument that you only ever use the BOM for engagements of 1 round duration.
    Now let’s take an average length game… 12 turns.

    Using the BOM for SBR, you will do $17.5 IPC’s of damage to your opponent before the BOM dies.
    That is it.  Odds are by that time the BOM is dead, and you do not have it to use at all for the last 5 turns of the game which means harder trading by Germany for turns 7 through 12 (which means more German land units die)

    Using it for ground combat, it will kill, on average, 8 enemy units.  Let’s assume they are all the lowest value possible:  INF.
    That is $24 in dead units over a 12 turn game.

    And you STILL have the BOM alive to add punch to those major attacks, like sacking Moscow, where it adds 2 kills per 3 rounds of combat.

    Not sure why you are having trouble seeing that difference…



  • Not sure why you are having trouble seeing that difference…

    If you do not need the bomb to trade territories anymore, why not SBR? You’re not gaining anything special by using a bomber if you also have enough fighters available to trade. I’m certain the Germans require their bomb for intensive trading for the first few rounds, but after that it doesn’t seem necessary. So you rack up the first few rounds of risk-less work, then you go off and deal your $17.5 damage. That can be super helpful because after a point all you’re doing is trading 2 territories with Russia which only requires figs, and the bomber isn’t helping very much, so you might as well help Japan by doing more damage through SBR.

    And you STILL have the BOM alive to add punch to those major attacks, like sacking Moscow, where it adds 2 kills per 3 rounds of combat.

    What I have trouble seeing is how battles last that long. It was difficult for me to see this at first, but very few battles last 3 rounds or more.

    So long as the BOM lives, your opponent cannot leave unguarded TRN’s within range

    This is about irrelevant past a certain point. If you can tell that having a single bomb no longer threatens the Allies transport chain, then it’s time to send it to SBR. I see no reason to conserve a bomber if it no longer significantly threatens the transport chain and also its services are no longer required except for some minimal change in % for trading.

    I’m having trouble seeing why you want to save your bomber past the point when it’s just not helping much anymore, when your figs are capable of handling the trading and there is no more reasonable possibility of threatening navy. You might as well help Japan out by bombing 17.5 IPCs out of Russia, because you sure aren’t going to get that many IPCs out of your bomb when it comes to the final attack, and remember this is after the bomber has served its useful life in trading territories, when you have lots of figs available to do that.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Bean, Switch is afraid of the AA Gun.



  • The one AA gun….TO RULE THEM ALL.

    I do very much think you should keep the handy bomber at your side for much of the early to mid game, but I also think that there is some point at which you should let it go free and experience the world for itself. Bombers get skittish when you coop them up too long. Just like the cow on the left here.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I stopped being afraid of AA Guns.  Too many players were putting an AA Gun in my way and winning because I wouldn’t attack it.



  • I’m afraid of AA guns when they’re in places where I’m only going to spend one round of combat. It’s not a very good trade economically. A $10 IPC fighter means if you go into a territory with an AA that you’re losing 1.66  IPCs on average and likely you are doing 1.5 IPCs (killing infantry). That’s no good. If I see something like 1 inf 1 aa in a territory I will either go 2 inf 1 art or simply try to overpower it with a big force then retreat the next turn with a new shiny AA gun.

    But you’re right, you shouldn’t be afraid of the AA gun if it is a battle in which your fighters will be used for a few rounds.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Nah, cause taking them gives me a free AA Gun to use against them.  If they are too afraid of the gun, I net the territory for multiple rounds and can pull the gun back if I want too or press forward and land my planes.  Or maybe he attacks with armor so I can kill a few of them off.

    Anyway, I’ll attack anything I want.  I’ve sent 5 fighters and 2 infantry against an infantry and AA Gun with out regard to the potential loss.



  • Anyway, I’ll attack anything I want.  I’ve sent 5 fighters and 2 infantry against an infantry and AA Gun with out regard to the potential loss.

    Well that’s your prerogative to make decisions as the CO.



  • But isn’t there some limit…I mean theoretically if you had 100 fighters with nothing else to do, would you send 100 fighters + 2 inf to attack 1 inf 1 aa? It seems silly to me to lose 16 fighters to take the aa gun, unless the enemy has more fighters and no land units to take it back.



  • Stop stop stop.

    There are situations in which you want to save your bomber (of any power) and not risk them.  Switch did a good job in summing up most of the cases - anyways he covered most of the stuff I would have mentioned offhand.

    There are situations in which you want to strategic bomb.  NOT just when US has “Superfortresses” either.  Usually this is when Russia was overaggressive first turn, and you’re going Turbo Tank Dash to Moscow, but NOT always.  There are other situations too.


Log in to reply
 

20th Anniversary Give Away

In January 2000 this site came to life and now we're celebrating our 20th Anniversary with a prize giveaway of 30+ prizes. See this link for the list of prizes and winners.
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys
T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 22
  • 159
  • 30
  • 5
  • 4
  • 36
  • 46
  • 83
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

50
Online

14.9k
Users

35.6k
Topics

1.5m
Posts