Where to place Bid Builds?



  • 😮
      It seems that everyone has their own idea of the best way to invest their bid builds. Which is good because it deminishes the tendency towards stagnet games.
    But my question is where do you think the money is best spent? With Germany or Japan? Or portion it out to both? To more define the Query, let’s say the bid is agreed at 9 IPC.
    I have seen some threads touching on this subject, but I don’t recall a thread that started out devoted to this subject recently. If it has been done already I apologise for the rehash, but if anyone wants to discuss it, I, at least would like to know what you think.
      Crazy Ivan  😮



  • It should all go to Germany, no more than 2 ipc to japan at most.
    I like to put the build either in Libya for a fast African push or into Ukraine to save my fighter. (which then can go to Egypt) A West Russia build sounds interesting but never done it.



  • I like a unit to Ukraine, a unit to Libya, and an IPC to Japan ($7 if I can get it).

    That makes Ukraine painful enough on average that Russia avoids it (or takes total loss with a minimal German Counter)
    It boosts the Egypt attack to dissuade a UK counter in Egypt (or if they do, I can take it again, and UK is gone form the Middle East)
    And it adds the flexibility for Japan to do an IC on J1 if they choose.



  • 1 think you need atleast 2 inf to ukraine to make it any kind of a threat to Russia. so i like on or the other. the 2 ipc to Japan would be to build 4 trn on rd 1.



  • Ukraine w/o 1 INF from a bid is 95.7% win w/ an average of 3 ARM remaining for Germany to counter
    Ukraine w/a 1 INF from a bid is 87.0% win w/ an average of 2 ARM remaining for Germany to counter.

    3 IPC bid = $5 less Russian Hardware to kill… and increased odds that Ukraine goes in the toilet for Russia.



  • yeah, 1 inf wouldn’t personally stop me, cuz your tanks are going to die in the counter anyway



  • Thank you Cyan…

    THAT is the point of only 1 INF to Ukraine.  It is not enough to STOP a player from doing Ukraine on R1, but it IS enough that on average, Germany needs to use fewer units to liberate it on G1, thus preserving more of their units from either being lost in Ukraine, or being killed by an R2 counter-counter in Ukraine.

    The cumulative effect over 2 rounds is about 10 IPC to Germany’s benefit.



  • okay i understand, my bids a tied into making Egypt/africia fall fast and hard.



  • @cyan:

    okay i understand, my bids a tied into making Egypt/africia fall fast and hard.

    1 INF is enough to accomplish that as well.

    It is actually a sucker play for the UK to counter Egypt, then for Germany to counter-counter on G2.  From there it is zero opposition for Japan through India, and for Germany into central Africa.

    Sometimes it is not the actual move, or even the counter… it is the probable result of the counter-counter (or even another turn down the line), that makes a move a good move.

    You sucker Russia into Ukraine so that Germany can re-take it lighter than normal, perserving German forces to be used in the coming turns to spank the Russians as they try to preserve their income.

    You sucker UK into liberating Egypt so that Japan can ram through India early (making a $6 IPC shift that is basically permanent for the Axis), and then waste the UK forces with the original Algeria forces (that moved to Libya) and your TRN and BB, then it is off to the races in Africa further depleting UK income (and strafing the snot out of the US and/or UK as they pass Libya using your BB plus AF and TRN(s).


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’ll counter Egypt if, and only if, Germany only has tanks there.  This prevents a blitz of all Africa.

    Otherwise, not much real use to attacking Egypt.



  • It is actually a sucker play for the UK to counter Egypt, then for Germany to counter-counter on G2.  From there it is zero opposition for Japan through India, and for Germany into central Africa.

    Well, UK can counter-counter-counter if you leave their tran alone off of Egypt. I actually prefer to let the UK counter counter counter so that India is truly abandoned. If you kill their transport that usually has a couple of connotations: first, that you usually sacrifice some Japanese saftey on J1, because if you send a fighter or bb to kill the tran that significantly alters the safety of the typical China + Kwang + Pearl Heavy strike (also adds a little chance that you will lose the fighter to the tran). The other is that the UK will have 2 infantry sitting in India, which is annoying to divert some attention to; fighters are susceptibile to that AA gun and you want your BBs elsewhere early on to expand.

    As for bids, I like 2 inf to Ukraine (saves a lot of German gear) or the typical 1 inf/art to Libya. If you go bid in Ukraine, make sure to attack Anglo with your bb/tran. If you bid in Libya, you have the option of landing heavy in Anglo, or also sending your bb/tran westwards to prevent a turn 1 landing from the Allies in Africa. It’s up to debate what the best route is to go, personally I’m liking the 2 inf to Ukraine to save on lots of gear which lets you build a carrier in SZ5 with less strain on your forces and also leaving the med navy to contest Anglo, which just about forces the Allies to deflect at least a round of troops into Africa.



  • I think biding 8 or more is too risky. A tranny in baltic sea can mean a G1 sea lion even without tech … with long range tech, is G1 axis conquer England, Allies can’t retake, axis victory. Even with LHrules still can buy a trannie in Mediterranean Sea, so África is lost fast anyway. So i never would bid more than 7.

    Bid of 6 or 7? Germany gets two units in África. If Japan don’t go haste, it could mean Germans in India  😮

    Bid of 4-5. It means one unit bid in Libia or Ucrania, PLUS 1 IPC to Japan for 2 trannies, 1 IC in J1. Too powerful.

    I think any bid greater than 3 is too advantage for axis



  • You might be right, Funcioneta.

    But remember, people bid what they think they need with the Axis to win > 50% of the time. If you bid something, that means you feel confident you will generally win with the Axis with that bid. In order to make a fair game, we’d probably have to cut the lowest bidder by 1 IPC at least.



  • You can do Turbo India with 1-2 Japanese infantry at French Indochina and/or tank at Kwangtung.

    Similar bid in Africa (1-2 infantry at Libya and tank at Algeria) frees the German Med transport from having to hit Anglo-Egypt (allowing either a hold of Anglo-Egypt past G1, or threatened German fleet unification after Med fleet moves west)

    Either way, the effect is quite good for Axis.  Turbo India lets the Japs take India early and put their IC there.  Holding Anglo-Egypt is excellent for Germany, as tank blitzes on G2 secure much of Africa.  Alternatively, German fleet unification allows for more high jinks.

    I wouldn’t place 1 infantry in Ukraine.  If Russia does West Russia/Belorussia, the extra 1 German infantry in Ukraine is often mostly useless.  German infantry in Ukraine can force 3 Russian tanks to attack Ukraine if the Russian player is fixated on Ukraine/West Russia, but there’s no guarantee the Russian player will do that.


  • Moderator

    I like to use my bids all for Germany and all to Libya (or sz 14).

    I think it gives you the most flexability since you can still bring 2 more units to Egy for an Egy Heavy attack, or you can go to Sz 13 and take Gib and save your sub (or attack sz 1), or you can also pull those units and counter in Europe if something goes bad on R1 and they leave a door open for you.

    An all Europe bid cuts down some of those options since you are probably forced to send the trn and BB to sz 15 for help in Egy on G1.

    I don’t like a split bid between territories b/c I still think it leaves you vulnerable in the Egy attack without bringing the trn/bb from sz 14.

    I think Egy is a must win for Germany on G1 so I tend to err on the side of caution and will go extra heavy.  Now with an 8-9 bid to Lib I feel a lot better with the inf/arm or 3 inf that I don’t need the trn anymore and can hit Sz 13/Gib if I want to instead.

    A tran bid to Sz 5 won’t work (for Sea Lion), Russia will land 2 ftrs in London and stop the attack.  
    UK will have: 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 1 bom
    Germany can attack with:  2 inf, 2 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom
    Even with no planes shot down, UK should hold with 2-4 ftrs left.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    A tran bid to Sz 5 won’t work (for Sea Lion), Russia will land 2 ftrs in London and stop the attack.  
    UK will have: 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 1 bom
    Germany can attack with:  2 inf, 2 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom
    Even with no planes shot down, UK should hold with 2-4 ftrs left.

    If I am Germany and Russia puts two ftrs in UK R1, I am very happy.

    That means both ftrs did no combat or Norway was attacked with the karelia ftr, a less than optimal R1 attack since it can be easily countered with the 4 ground units from the sz5 tpts.

    Either way, I’d be very happy.

    Both russian ftrs are probably the safest play, but probably 1 is sufficient.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I’ve done a variety of things… Usually I go with the Algeria/Libya bid, because as others have said it enables Germany to take Egypt (key for destroying a UK fighter and preventing the UK fleet from getting into the med) while still moving the Med fleet to Gibraltar, where it really keeps the allied shipping on its toes, esp. if a bunch of Ftrs are in WEU.

    I’ve also done 1 TRN to Z14, but that extra TRN is a waste first round if you don’t go to Egypt.

    Have also done the Turbo India thing, it’s not bad.

    On the whole though, you can’t go wrong with putting the bid in North Africa. Any other choice is more “experimental”, at least for me. But if you are bored of the same old opening everytime, just try something new!

    Anyone ever consider a Norway bid? Would Germany be free from having to abandon it then, if it reinforced it with the Baltic TRN? Interesting idea, but not looking at map right now…


  • Moderator

    @axis_roll:

    @DarthMaximus:

    A tran bid to Sz 5 won’t work (for Sea Lion), Russia will land 2 ftrs in London and stop the attack.  
    UK will have: 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 1 bom
    Germany can attack with:  2 inf, 2 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom
    Even with no planes shot down, UK should hold with 2-4 ftrs left.

    Both russian ftrs are probably the safest play, but probably 1 is sufficient.

    True.

    I don’t see the loss of the ftrs for a turn or two as that big of a deal.  You can still hammer Wrus with everything on R1 while Germany will be struggling in Afr and have no added units to help the push on Mos to show for it.



  • The 2 USSR fighters in England is annonying … for USSR. It avoids any useful fighting in R1 (cannot hit west russia) and maybe even R2. And lets Caucasus almost undefended in R1 if you do Ucrania attack. Anyway, long range tech would still work, and i would happyly trade german fighters for soviet fighters plus 30 IPCs for conquering England.

    And a trannie in Med. sea means, as i said, a race german vs japan for conquering India, even with IC

    So, no bid greater than 7 for me. 9 is scary, lets german transport and 1 IPC for IPC+2 trans combo for Japan.

    You could even buy a sub on sz8, try long range and volatilice the 2nd british battleship  😮



  • @DarthMaximus:

    @axis_roll:

    @DarthMaximus:

    A tran bid to Sz 5 won’t work (for Sea Lion), Russia will land 2 ftrs in London and stop the attack.  
    UK will have: 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 1 bom
    Germany can attack with:  2 inf, 2 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom
    Even with no planes shot down, UK should hold with 2-4 ftrs left.

    Both russian ftrs are probably the safest play, but probably 1 is sufficient.

    True.

    I don’t see the loss of the ftrs for a turn or two as that big of a deal.  You can still hammer Wrus with everything on R1 while Germany will be struggling in Afr and have no added units to help the push on Mos to show for it.

    hmmm… 2 extra inf in karelia G1 is not considered pushing on Moscow?  
    It’s analogous to Ukraine…

    These are all very subtle differences and prone to personal strategic preference more than one bid placement being so much better than another.

    Moreso, certain bids make certain allied things happen (i.e. russian ftrs in london).  Choose the bid that best supports the allied reaction you wish.

    For example, if want your Ukraine ftr to live, put 2 units there.
    OR
    If you’re a firm believer of gathering African IPCs as fast as possible, place the units in Libya and also transport units to AES from southern.  Make AES impervious to a UK counter round 1.

    Lots of options!



  • I’ve tested a bit with a Japanese arty in French Indochina. It does the work of a fighter in the battle for China, but often it’s not decisive later. And even then, there may be 1J situations even more overwhelming.
    For the remaining 5 IPC: tank in Libya, or even inf (and save 2 for Japan to build 4 transports)



  • True, but not all use the LH rules. And without long range, sub in sz8 means bomber, 1 fighter and 2 subs against 1 trannie, 1 sub, 1 BB(assume USSR joins fleet). You still have 3 fighters against Gibraltar BB and italian BB against Israel destroyer. German should save at least the bomber, maybe even the fighter.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @axis_roll:

    If you’re a firm believer of gathering African IPCs as fast as possible, place the units in Libya and also transport units to AES from southern.  Make AES impervious to a UK counter round 1.

    I’ve actually attacked w/both TRN units AND bid units into Anglo-Egypt, and lost the battle as the germans, or had only 1-2 armor left for the UK to blow up. 😞

    It can happen more often than you think that you get no hits in your first attack, and then if the defender gets some, and your 2nd round is also sub-par… Hence I like to go for overkill. However I also like to move the med fleet west, so it’s usually just bid units for me that get used in Egypt (+ Libyan forces)

    If only the Alg and Libya forces were switched around for G1, it would make G1 so much easier…



  • I liked Jap arty in French Indochina enough to test it repeatedly. Useful, but not as much as Libya. See “1UK explosion > 1J counter” topic.

    Someone mentioned 2inf in Ukraine. I’ve even seen 3inf - totally deterrent, more than counterbalancing a weak Egypt. Forbidden in the TripleA Ladder to add more than 1 unit per area. Can anyone say in which tournament version is this allowed ?


  • Moderator

    @Funcioneta:

    The 2 USSR fighters in England is annonying … for USSR. It avoids any useful fighting in R1 (cannot hit west russia) and maybe even R2. And lets Caucasus almost undefended in R1 if you do Ucrania attack.

    Russia can still attack Wrus with 12 inf, 2 rt, 4 arm.  They take it out in one rd with 10 inf, 2 rt, 4 arm remaining.

    It would be a bad bad bad idea to attack Ukr with 3 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm only and split the Wrus attack.

    Leaving 1-2 inf Cauc on R1 is a nice way to get Germany to over extend early if they fall for the trap.

    For your R2 attacks, your fts can still be used in Kar and you have Rt/arm for Belo/Ukr.

    I see players constantly throwing away 3 Russian armor in Ukr on R1, so if you save them you are certainly free to use 1 or 2 on R2 if you need them.

    @axis_roll:

    @DarthMaximus:

    I don’t see the loss of the ftrs for a turn or two as that big of a deal.  You can still hammer Wrus with everything on R1 while Germany will be struggling in Afr and have no added units to help the push on Mos to show for it.

    hmmm… 2 extra inf in karelia G1 is not considered pushing on Moscow?  
    It’s analogous to Ukraine…

    Not really.  8 =/= 6   🙂
    Why not just bid 6 then and place the units on Ukr?  Or bid the 8, place two inf on Belo or Ukr and have 2 extra in cash?  Why waste all 8 on a trn just to get 2 units to Kar during G’s NCM, you could even bid 6 to EE and do that.

    Transporting 2 extra inf from Ger or WE to Kar is a whole territory behind direct placement on Belo or Ukr, at least those bids can be used to threaten Wrus/Cauc immediately.

    IMO the only reason to bid to Sz 5 is to infact try and scare the UK since it is more cost effective to place the ground units directly in Europe or if you choose to go with a Germany naval strat b/c it is likely you’ll need to buy an AC on G1 for protection anyway, otherwise you’ll lose your bid trn to Allied aircraft in round 2.


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