The Kriegsmarine had a “Minenschiff” called Hansestadt Danzig, it was a converted passenger ship - not a whole class and is certainly NOT the mini we have ;)
Overbuilding Transports with UK
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I, honestly, use up like 4 to 6 infantry a round trading territories.
Hmm maybe we need to play the same game. In the game I play there’s at least 1 inf in 3 border territories, with very commonly 2 and 3. That means if I’m super lucky I only have to use 6 inf (2 inf vs 1 inf in each territory), but the numbers very easily go up to 7-9 inf (2-3 in each territory).
I also agree with the new paint brush (or is it a new paint brush?) about the income levels. 39 income for 7 rounds is pretty optimistic, and like you said earlier, the exception doesn’t prove the rule. Africa is quickly overrun, Norway is gone, and so is W. Russia and no more trading in Karelia. That is down to 33 income by round 3-4.
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39 Income over 7 rounds is pretty PESSIMISTIC.
I’m not counting any rounds of you having Africa in that. It’s more probable that you are closer to +5 over start, so around 45 IPC at least for the first 4 of those 7 rounds, resulting in 15 infantry a round.
And I like to have a stack and flanking infantry. That way I only have to trade two territories. If I must trade 3, then it’s probable that I’m only using 6 infantry for the trade. Why anyone would send 12 infantry or whatever it is you think you are using up every round to trade territories I have no idea. It’s not cost effective in the least and it spreads you thin.
Maybe that’s why you think extra transports would win you the game? Because you are too diversified and not spending wisely with Germany?
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If Germany is building INF THAT heavilly, then you have lost the offensive against Russia and are trading much closer to the vest as Germany. That means Russia poses a greater threat, and that Germany has to fight harder just to stay in the 30’s for income.
You cannot BOTH build all INF AND trade at the Archangel/WR/Caucuses frontier turn after turn as Germany. Sorry, it just does NOT happen unless MASSIVE dice fracks come into play early in the game (or unless the Allies are playing poorly).
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Maybe that’s why you think extra transports would win you the game? Because you are too diversified and not spending wisely with Germany?
No, not sure where you generated yet another strawman. I build almost purely inf just like you, except somehow we have different experiences. You somehow think you can make it with 2 inf per 3 territories as an average, when it’s much more common to see 2-3 enemy units occupying, which means 3 inf per territory.
I’m not counting any rounds of you having Africa in that. It’s more probable that you are closer to +5 over start, so around 45 IPC at least for the first 4 of those 7 rounds, resulting in 15 infantry a round.
Somehow you always manage to exaggerate things. What kind of KGF are the Allies running? Without any threat to their shipping since you conveniently didn’t reinforce the Baltic, there’s no reason that the Allies shouldn’t be in Algeria on round 1 and Norway on Round 2. Remember as well that Egypt is being counterattacked for the first 2 rounds, and W. Russia is permanently lost from R1. Where is 39 IPCs coming from past round 3-4? Where’s 45 coming from? I see at most 42, not 45….and that is solely on G1-G2. Germany starts at 40 IPCs and is only going downhill fast from perhaps 42 for the first 2 rounds due to trading Karelia/Egypt. By round 4 at the latest Karelia/Egypt are no longer traded, so we’re looking at 33 IPCs with Norway, Algeria, Libya, W. Russia gone. Next up is Ukraine and Belo.
You have me curious, what exactly is flanking infantry? How do you manage to trade only 2 territories?
Extra transports do exactly what I said they would do - not win the game, a strawman you generated, but force the Germans to dedicate early extra defense to 3 territories, which shortchanges them somewhere, whether on defense or against the Russians. Extra transports don’t suddenly become a threat by a late round 7, you have to think about them on UK3 or so.
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If the enemy has 2 units defending I still attack with 2 infantry. Odds of 1 infantry surviving when you have the following:
Attacker: 2 Inf, 2 Fig
Defender: 2 InfIs pretty high.
Anyway, yea, the allies are in Norway on round 1.
Germany’s in Egypt on Round 1. Bonus Germany
Allies are in Libya on Round 2
Germany’s in T-J, IEA, FEQ, FWA, Congo and Kenya on Round 2 MAJOR bonus Germany
Allies are in Egypt on Round 3.
Germany’s back in Egypt on Round 3 MAJOR bonus Germany
Getting the idea? Who needs the SZ 5 fleet??? It has no bearing on Africa!
Sure, you get Norway. So? I’m down 3 IPC for Norway, up 2 for Egypt, 1 for IEA, 1 for FEQ, 1 for FWA, 1 for Congo, 1 for Kenya and 1 for T-J and when it appears my fleet is toast, I send them to SZ 35 and take India for Germany too.
So yea, 40 on G1, 42-44 on G2, 45-48 on G3 with 42+ each round there after for at least 2 more rounds, probably 3 more rounds
Either you are the worst German player in history, or you are playing devil’s advocate, Bean. Germany starts with 25 infantry. you can expect to lose 6 of that, so you have 19. Building 13-15 infantry a round for the first few rounds is a breeze. 12-14 infantry the next few rounds very doable if you don’t waste your resources. 10-12 a round by the fall of Moscow pretty standard in a KGF. That means you can easily field 60+ infantry a round in Europe, and that’s while you are trading Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine with the British/Russians.
Unless you play with just the three allies vs Germany and don’t have Japan do anything. Guess in THAT situation it would be a lot harder since Russia is at full strength for most of the game then.
And yes, Switch, I am trading Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine while primarily infantry. I don’t even consider tanks until I have 60 infantry not including garrisons. Then I can start getting 4:1 Infantry:Tanks with Germany and start pushing to take Ukraine or Karelia for keeps and trade deeper into Moscow.
Who cares if the Russians get to collect for Ukraine and Belo so long as they are marching away from Evenki, Novosibirsk, Kazakh and Persia. That just means Japan has all the more time to build up a huge stack and walk into Caucasus because the Russians are throwing away units into Ukraine instead of against Japan.
Hell, if you attack territories with 3 infantry defending with 4 infantry, I’m gunna make sure to put 3 infantry in! I can easily sap your strength then because you’ll have 3 infantry I can attack with 2 infantry 3 fighters and STILL WIN MOST OF THE TIME!
For the record:
2 Infantry, 2 Fighters vs 2 Defending Infantry:
Attacker: 98% Win
Defender: 1.4% WinMost likely result: Infantry, 2 Fighters remaining with over 70% chance.
2 Infantry, 3 Fighters vs 3 Defending Infantry:
Attacker: 97% Chance Win
Defender: 1.8% Chance WinMost likely result: Infantry, 3 Fighters remaining with about 60% chance; 3 Fighters remaining with 70% chance
In either event, I have killed your defenders and not over extended myself in return, thereby preserving my forces until I am stacked up enough and then moving forward.
What does that leave? England and America with barely enough forces to take E. Europe OR W. Europe and losing it on Germany’s next turn regardless. I don’t care if England has 40 transports, let alone 6. It’s just not a wise investment early in the game.
Now, if England is routinely taking W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe and collecting for Africa and Russia is keeping Japan bottled up, it’s a completely different story. Now you have money to burn!
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Anyway, yea, the allies are in Norway on round 1.
Germany’s in Egypt on Round 1. Bonus Germany
Allies are in Libya on Round 2
Germany’s in T-J, IEA, FEQ, FWA, Congo and Kenya on Round 2 MAJOR bonus Germany
Allies are in Egypt on Round 3.
Germany’s back in Egypt on Round 3 MAJOR bonus Germany
Getting the idea? Who needs the SZ 5 fleet??? It has no bearing on Africa!
I ask the same question I asked earlier, what kind of KGF are the Allies running? You should be able to counterattack Egypt on UK1 with 1 bomb 1 fig 3 inf. Germany isn’t expanding farther than Egypt usually.
Either you are the worst German player in history, or you are playing devil’s advocate, Bean.
Either/or fallacy, there’s more than 2 options =p
If the enemy has 2 units defending I still attack with 2 infantry. Odds of 1 infantry surviving when you have the following:
Attacker: 2 Inf, 2 Fig
Defender: 2 InfIs pretty high.
Hmm but where do you station your aircraft? In order to have 2 fighters per 3 territories requires that they be closer than W. Europe. You can station 2 fig 1 bomb in W. Europe and hit Karelia with 2 figs and the bomb can go to Ukraine or Belo, but how about the other 3-4 figs? I like to station all figs in W. Europe because the serve the dual purpose of creating defense and threatening a poorly managed fleet. If I flew some fighters say to E. Europe, that would mean at least 2 inf to W. Europe for each fighter missing which means significantly less infantry to trade early on. What I’m saying is that it’s hard to send 2 planes to each Kar/Belo/Ukraine and still have them on defense in W. Europe.
Hell, if you attack territories with 3 infantry defending with 4 infantry, I’m gunna make sure to put 3 infantry in! I can easily sap your strength then because you’ll have 3 infantry I can attack with 2 infantry 3 fighters and STILL WIN MOST OF THE TIME!
Err…please, another strawman. I didn’t say I’d always send one more inf than the defenders. I would send 3 inf + 2 fighters against 3 inf, isn’t that what the R1 Belorussia attack is all about? In fact I would send 2 inf + 2 fighters against 2 inf if the fighters were available, but to make them available means positioning outside of W. Europe, and each fighter outside of W. Europe means 2 infantry have to go there to compensate. That means 3-4 fighters out of position for Germany, which I don’t like.
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I like to have 2 Fighters in W. Europe, 2 in Germany and 2 in E. Europe, but I can easily change that to 3 in Germany/W. Europe or, if I have too, 6 in W. Europe. Point is, the fighters can easily shift to prevent the allies from winning with extra transports without having to tie up extra units.
BTW, the flankers would be if I had a major stack in Belorussia and 1 infantry in karelia and 1 in ukraine. That’s flankers. Someone (you I think) asked earlier.
Germany 1:
Egypt:
Infantry, Armor from S. Europe
2 Infantry, 2 Armor from Libya
Fighter from Balkans
Bomber from Germany
Fighter from Ukraine (if not killed by Russia)Survivors: Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters, Bomber
(Assumes 8 IPC bid, which is pretty much my standard unless I want the axis.)
Counter Attacker:
2 Infantry from India
1 Infantry from Trans-Jordan
Fighter from SZ 35
Bomber from EnglandSurvivors: England with Fighter, Bomber or Fighter solo (assuming fighter because your bomber would land in kill range.)
Counter: 2 Fighters, Bomber from Libya to your LZ for that damn bomber.
Result: Germany owns Africa, England’s forces depleted, loss of 50% of British Air Force.
More logical? Egypt not countered. England consolidates in India to stop Japan’s forward motions and lands in Algeria to be reinforced by America. This, of course, requires 3 rounds to get to Egypt. 1 to get to Algeria, 1 to get to Libya, 1 to get to Egypt.
Meanwhile, Germany has reinforced and blitzed all of Africa without trouble or loss.
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BTW, the flankers would be if I had a major stack in Belorussia and 1 infantry in karelia and 1 in ukraine. That’s flankers. Someone (you I think) asked earlier.
Well, I didn’t ask earlier but thanks for the explanation.
(Assumes 8 IPC bid, which is pretty much my standard unless I want the axis.)
Thanks for clarifying, I was assuming 7 or less bid. I suppose it’s different if you have an 8 bid.
Counter: 2 Fighters, Bomber from Libya to your LZ for that damn bomber.
You would most likely lose a fighter since there’s a defending fighter present, which may not work out for you. Plus if Ukraine was attacked, you will have 1 fighter in Libya, not 2.
Result: Germany owns Africa, England’s forces depleted, loss of 50% of British Air Force.
But how? The Allies can land in Algeria in Round 1, and 2 if necessary. Germany isn’t expanding in Africa until Round 3, which puts your IPC estimate in doubt. Plus there’s that Australian transport coming around east to contest/defend the southern tip. I don’t see the 45+ mark happening if the Allies are trying to do a KGF.
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Against 3 armor and an artillery defending in Egypt, I doubt England’s attacking because you’d probably be reduced to a fighter and bomber with nothing left to take the land.
However, even if you did and let’s say Ukraine was taken by Russia, I’d still attack Fighter/Bomber with Fighter/Bomber.
Germany has more fighters anyway, and can build them easier then England. And your defensive punch is only 5, my offense is 7. And, if I get a hit, which I’m almost sure to do, you’ll almost have to chose the bomber, the more expensive and flexible of the two units while, if you get a hit, I can easily lose the fighter and retreat the bomber.
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@ncscswitch:
If Germany is building INF THAT heavilly, then you have lost the offensive against Russia and are trading much closer to the vest as Germany. That means Russia poses a greater threat, and that Germany has to fight harder just to stay in the 30’s for income.
You cannot BOTH build all INF AND trade at the Archangel/WR/Caucuses frontier turn after turn as Germany. Sorry, it just does NOT happen unless MASSIVE dice fracks come into play early in the game (or unless the Allies are playing poorly).
What games are you playing?
I hardly see G trade Arch, except rnd 1, never WRU, and when G starts trading cauc thats bad for allies.
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