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Japan invading Brazil - An option?



  • What do you think of this:

    Japan controls the entire Pacific, and the US doesn’t fight them anymore, simply because the Japanese navy is overkilling them.

    Japan goes from Tokyo with a few transports, and battleship/destroyer, submarine and a AC with 2 on it, from SZ60 to SZ45, from SZ45 to SZ42, and from SZ42 to SZ22, starting the attack in Brazil, which will have little to mostly non resistance.

    This gains 3 IPC, good one just for that, but?

    It takes a few rounds to get there, so the US might be warned, although taking the route below South-America can be confusing.
    I have chosen for that route, because going through Panama is no option, or you should attack that one, hold for 1 round, and pass it with your ships,
    No option.

    Air attacks will not happen, the movement from East US to Brazil is 4, only bombers can attack, and land in the West Indies,

    Pros/cons:
    Cons: You can’t pressure Russia much, although once bought all the stuff, you can start pushing them again back into their motherland,
    Pros: 3 IPC

    • Having America not being able to do much with their fleet, because you will start ruling together with Germany also the Atlantic,
    • Being able to invade, if needed, Africa right away
    • I doubt if this attack has ever been done, so you always surprise your US player

    Optional: when America is doing nothing, Try West Indies as well, with the entire fleet,

    • Try Alaska as well, they have to spread their forces now for: Brazil (West Indies) / Alaska / Europe.

    Give me some thoughts about this move! Thanks!



  • I played against this. Is a pain in the ass. The very first time i go for KGF and the guy buyed a Brazilian IC and began disturbing my Atlantic allied fleet  😛



  • @Funcioneta:

    I played against this. Is a pain in the a**. The very first time i go for KGF and the guy buyed a Brazilian IC and began disturbing my Atlantic allied fleet  😛

    So it is a very good move to seize control at the Atlantic. 😉



  • If Brazil is there for the taking, then I grab it.
    In some funny games, I had Brazil with Germany, and in another game with Japan  🙂
    Fun doesn’t last long. US takes it back very soon.



  • There’s lots of factors for if it’s good or bad.

    Taking the South America route makes those pieces ‘useless’ for 3 rounds (yes, grab new zealand on the way).

    It’s a long trip, US can prepare (or the US pacific fleet was saved and in the atlantic already)
    US can just sacrafice a tpt or two to take it back and now the Jap fleet has nothing to transport.

    Japanese air craft would need to be in europe to make a fleet dsh into the atlantic as effective as possible.  Without that, the allies can treat the IJN as a gnat and deal with it when they are ready.  Also, If Japan is working the Indian ocean, US might drop a small backdoor navy in WUS to harass your sz60 transports.



  • And what if… Japan send part of its fleet to Africa and then passing south of Arica attack also Brazil?

    The rest of the fleet may be left in North Pacific. I know that the division of the Japanese fleet in two half may create problems. In those way one half of the fleet is used primarily for attacking Africa, and after may be used to attack Brazil.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Japan making a run for Brazil is almost standard in games on these forums.  Rare is the day America can ignore Brazil.

    Some interesting, but not personally attempted, strategies include a US IC on Brazil on Round 1 pumping out at least 2 units a round for America to send into Africa.



  • And which course the Japanese fleet follows to get there usually?


  • 2007 AAR League

    Japan taking Brazil falls in the same category as Japan taking Alaska – annoying, but usually not a big deal.  It’s a great diversion tactic, however. 😄


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Japan, in my experience, usually takes Brazil with 1 transport, 1 infantry, 1 artillery and usually the same Inf/Art/Tran they used to take New Zealand.

    Normally speaking, the Japanese do not send fleet to protect the transport.  It’s just going to sail away to Africa anyway.



  • 😮
      As the Axis player, ( in a KGF game) I push my Japnese fleets both east and west and meet up in the South Atlantic, taking Brazil unless it is heavily defended, ( less troops in Africa). It really messes with the Allies convoy system to Europe, forcing them to beef up their Atlantic naval forces to deal with this threat. Usually ends with a great big naval battle in the north Atlantic!  :roll:
      For me, it forces the USA to retake territory, slowing up their European campaign, which gives Germany more time to beef up its’ defenses. Also, Japan gains more IPC!  :roll:


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I like to play a KJF defense with America then run away and sink the British fleet if I am relatively strong in Africa and can be assured the Suez is open. 😃

    Germany vs Russia, no British or American interference.

    How often does this happen?  Once in a blue moon on a Sunday in the Southern Hemisphere of the planet when Superman III is on television.



  • @axis_roll:

    There’s lots of factors for if it’s good or bad.

    Taking the South America route makes those pieces ‘useless’ for 3 rounds (yes, grab new zealand on the way).

    It’s a long trip, US can prepare (or the US pacific fleet was saved and in the atlantic already)
    US can just sacrafice a tpt or two to take it back and now the Jap fleet has nothing to transport.

    Japanese air craft would need to be in europe to make a fleet dsh into the atlantic as effective as possible.  Without that, the allies can treat the IJN as a gnat and deal with it when they are ready.  Also, If Japan is working the Indian ocean, US might drop a small backdoor navy in WUS to harass your sz60 transports.

    Japan only attacks when ahving enough to leave behind, doh.



  • @Sproit:

    @axis_roll:

    There’s lots of factors for if it’s good or bad.

    Taking the South America route makes those pieces ‘useless’ for 3 rounds (yes, grab new zealand on the way).

    It’s a long trip, US can prepare (or the US pacific fleet was saved and in the atlantic already)
    US can just sacrafice a tpt or two to take it back and now the Jap fleet has nothing to transport.

    Japanese air craft would need to be in europe to make a fleet dsh into the atlantic as effective as possible.  Without that, the allies can treat the IJN as a gnat and deal with it when they are ready.  Also, If Japan is working the Indian ocean, US might drop a small backdoor navy in WUS to harass your sz60 transports.

    Japan only attacks when ahving enough to leave behind, doh.

    Please add detail to your statement or else it might be mis-construed as condescending.

    “what is enough”?

    I’ve already stipulated that IF you have an Indian ocean fleet working (to feed africa or fight persia, trans-Jordan, etc), then you might not have enough capital ships in/around sz60 to not have to worry about sailing 2 capital ships with support vessels around the south american tip.

    US can drop a loaded carrier in sz55, fly a bomber in range, they would be able to hit sz60 with 3 planes.



  • It’s a diversion, nothing more. Distracts the US but it’s impossible to hold Brazil unless the US makes some major mistakes.

    I once had a game on triple where J invaded Brazil (which I ignored for that turn) and built an IC on the following turn. He had his entire fleet (2 ACs, 4 FTRs, 2 BB, 1 DES, 1 TRN) and started building submarines. The US simply bought subs, FTRs and ACs. Meanwhile the 24 IPCs spent meant that only 16 or so were being used on Asia which was great for the Russians. The US kept using their 35 IPCs until finally they attacked and sank the entire Jap fleet. The IC was lost on the following turn and Brazil recovered  😄



  • @axis_roll:

    @Sproit:

    @axis_roll:

    There’s lots of factors for if it’s good or bad.

    Taking the South America route makes those pieces ‘useless’ for 3 rounds (yes, grab new zealand on the way).

    It’s a long trip, US can prepare (or the US pacific fleet was saved and in the atlantic already)
    US can just sacrafice a tpt or two to take it back and now the Jap fleet has nothing to transport.

    Japanese air craft would need to be in europe to make a fleet dsh into the atlantic as effective as possible.  Without that, the allies can treat the IJN as a gnat and deal with it when they are ready.  Also, If Japan is working the Indian ocean, US might drop a small backdoor navy in WUS to harass your sz60 transports.

    Japan only attacks when ahving enough to leave behind, doh.

    Please add detail to your statement or else it might be mis-construed as condescending.

    “what is enough”?

    I’ve already stipulated that IF you have an Indian ocean fleet working (to feed africa or fight persia, trans-Jordan, etc), then you might not have enough capital ships in/around sz60 to not have to worry about sailing 2 capital ships with support vessels around the south american tip.

    US can drop a loaded carrier in sz55, fly a bomber in range, they would be able to hit sz60 with 3 planes.

    Enough?

    Enough when they can manage to keep the Russian pipeline flowing, supporting the fight (if needed) in Persia,

    But hopefully the UK and US build both an IC in Sinkiang and India, so units can also be placed there.

    It is a risky move, but well, aint war risky any time? 😉


  • 2007 AAR League

    Let’s see - commit 50 + IPCs in hardware to take a 3 IPC territory… if you hold it for 16 turns you’ll have enough to replace what you took out of the Pacific theater! I guess half that # of turns really, because you are also depriving the US, but still…

    This is another classic example of over-valuing territory and under-valuing units.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I agree partially. Do so only if you can hold it for more than a turn or 2 such as when the US is going to Europe. The fleet you use will be getting to Africa later but they would usually only be taking up space defending your TP’s in sz34. But that’s overkill anyway since the other half of the Japanese navy is more than adequate to defend TP’s in sz34 so their absence won’t be hurting Japan much.

    If the US is going to Africa and their fleet is in sz12, I wouldn’t recommend it because you’re going to have to use 1 naval unit each in sz17 and sz18 to block them from destroying the rest of your fleet or risk not only them retaking Brazil but also destroying half the Japanese navy. It’s asking a bit much from Japan to distract the US for a turn at that cost.



  • Japan fleets off Brazil and Egypt means wide open Pacific for a mid-game USA move against Japan (see most of Darth’s games for an example of the mid game USA Pacific move).



  • Scenario: it’s around turn 6. Japan had just taken New Zealand having there 1tra+1inf or 2, 1car+2ftr, 1BB.
    US has started to heavily KGF with a 5+5 transport fleet, has main fleet in Baltic, only 5 transports in SZ08 (SW of Britain) - enough to deter a lone German bomber - and say 3 fighters in Karelia.

    Is this early warning of Japan in NZ strong enough for US to switch to some preventive anti-Japan building ? What would that best be ?

    • Extra fighters built in EEU - reducing inf+arty flows ?
    • Taking (some) fleet out of Baltic ? But that would mean dividing the (ships-vs-German-air) defense in 3. The Channel area is targetable by German fighters in addition to the bomber. So that may mean needing to take fighters out of Karelia to land on US or UK carrier. What if these fighters were NOW critical to hold the forward European presence ?
    • Specific anti-ship units (offensive: sub, defensive and projection: carrier)

    The “opportunity cost” problem arises because Japan can’t do very much with the 2car,2BB,1des in an anti-Russia effort not opposed by US KJF. So they may use them “somewhere” essentially for free. Brazil is one possibility, Alaskan raid or Africa others…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Hobbes,

    I had Japan invade Brazil, build an IC and start invasions of W. Indies and later E. USA.

    My opponent wasn’t the sharpest stick in the world, but it was a fun game!


  • 2007 AAR League

    I find that the Jap fleet can be very helpful in bombarding Egypt / Persia / Trans-Jordan etc.

    Also, if you can get some units through the Suez in time, it can really prolong the life of the German fleet in the Med.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    No disagreement here.

    After Africa is secure, though, pushing through with the Japanese fleet can be a wise decision since it threatens the American shuck and the British shuck usually forcing them to pull their airforces back or build warships or both.



  • I find that the Jap fleet can be very helpful in bombarding Egypt / Persia / Trans-Jordan etc.

    I think this is something very interesting to investigate. Use 2 transports and shuck units from the Indian complex into these areas to up the pressure on the Allies? The Japanese have 2 bbs and a big airforce to spend in Africa while the Allies don’t really want to spend all day in there with the Germans on their minds.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    No use investigating this, it’s pretty much standard operating procedure.

    Though, I’d like to investigate the potential of sailing the Japanese fleet around the Cape of Good Hope (think that’s the one) off the coast of S. Africa and going up to SZ 12 to spit in the face of the allies. 😃

    Better make sure you keep some cash in reserve to throw down a fleet in SZ 60 if America get’s fancy though.


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