• @Cmdr:

    @cyan:

    @Cmdr:

    I do believe I said America only NEEDS one transport.  That’s not to say extras are not helpful.  But to be perfectly honest, you only NEED one, you can (and should) have plenty of submarines to take as fodder to keep your transport alive.  Transports defend for crud and they attack for nothing, to top it off, they only cost the same as a submarine.

    2 Aircraft Carriers
    Battleship
    2-3 destroyers
    6-10 submarines
    1-2 transports
    4-6 fighters
    +
    England

    Plenty to keep Japan at bay, and should be plenty attainable in the game.  Not very late, either.

    However, your initial probe, if nothing more then to rescue the British, can be nothing more then BB, TRN, DD, 2 AC, 4 FIG, 2 INF.  You are not attacking Japan with it and if they attack you, then they’ll lose even more assets and leave the remaining units in range of the ships you just bought in SZ 55!

    england shouldn;t have a navy after round 1 or else Japan doesn’t know what  its doing.

    I said + England because I don’t know if Japan will attack the combined British fleet in SZ 30.  If they do, splendid!!!  I sank a capitol ship and 4 fighter squadrons and didn’t lose a single American unit to do it!  If they don’t then I have a large fleet with England to defend my American fleet!

    Actyually Japan shouldn’t lose any of its fleet. it takes two hits on the battles ships and if they still haven’t killed every thing. then retrteat and straff agian next round. America can’t do anything about it.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @cyan:

    @Cmdr:

    @cyan:

    @Cmdr:

    I do believe I said America only NEEDS one transport.  That’s not to say extras are not helpful.  But to be perfectly honest, you only NEED one, you can (and should) have plenty of submarines to take as fodder to keep your transport alive.  Transports defend for crud and they attack for nothing, to top it off, they only cost the same as a submarine.

    2 Aircraft Carriers
    Battleship
    2-3 destroyers
    6-10 submarines
    1-2 transports
    4-6 fighters
    +
    England

    Plenty to keep Japan at bay, and should be plenty attainable in the game.  Not very late, either.

    However, your initial probe, if nothing more then to rescue the British, can be nothing more then BB, TRN, DD, 2 AC, 4 FIG, 2 INF.  You are not attacking Japan with it and if they attack you, then they’ll lose even more assets and leave the remaining units in range of the ships you just bought in SZ 55!

    england shouldn;t have a navy after round 1 or else Japan doesn’t know what  its doing.

    I said + England because I don’t know if Japan will attack the combined British fleet in SZ 30.  If they do, splendid!!!  I sank a capitol ship and 4 fighter squadrons and didn’t lose a single American unit to do it!  If they don’t then I have a large fleet with England to defend my American fleet!

    Actyually Japan shouldn’t lose any of its fleet. it takes two hits on the battles ships and if they still haven’t killed every thing. then retrteat and straff agian next round. America can’t do anything about it.

    I have no idea what forces you are talking about.

    If Japan did NOT attack SZ 30 they are facing:

    USA: 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Transport, 2 Destroyers, Battleship
    UK: Carrier, Fighter, 2 Transports, Submarine, Destroyer

    Japan has 2 Carriers, 2 Battleships, 3 Transports, 6 Fighters, Bomber

    After one round, with Japan attacking to “strafe” you would have:

    Japan kills 3 Transports, Submarine for 32 IPC in damage to the Allies
    Japan loses 3 Fighters, 3 Transports for 54 IPC in damage to Japan

    If Japan does kill the SZ 30 fleet, then they are reduced by 4 fighters and a carrier.

    Japan attacks with 2 battleships, 2 fighters, bomber, 3 transports
    America defends with battleship, 4 fighters, 2 carriers, transport, 2 destroyers

    Japan kills a fighter and a transport, 18 IPC in equipment destroyed
    Japan loses 3 transports with a good possibility of another fighter, 24-34 IPC lost

    Honestly, Japan is not in a good position to attack the American fleet at any point. Let alone being able to attack without “losing any of its fleet.”

    And yes, that’s only 1 round of American builds for fleet.  You might be able to punch out more damage if you build a destroyer and 2 transports, I assumed Japan with only two transports for builds to give you more flexibility.  However, the damage you take from the Americans or the Combined fleet wouldn’t change, only the possibility of doing more damage to them in round 1.


  • UK moving to sz 30 rd 1 is stupid. it leaves the szs 59 trn alive, allows Japan to do Pearl Heavy and won’t reach the solomns until UK3. at least.  so the UK’s fleet is toast. by eithre attacking rd 1 or allows the american navy to be toast while simultaneously putting the uk fleet out of range.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Moving the UK fleet to SZ 30 gives England options.

    Why throw the fleet away to sink a transport?  Japan can go Pearl Heavy either way, so why not consolidate and pose a threat to a second front until you can unify with America?

    From SZ 30 you can invade E. Indies with 3 infantry, fighter, should be more then enough to win.
    From SZ 30 you can invade New Guinea with 3 infantry, fighter, if that’s not enough to win, resign now!
    From SZ 30 you can move to SZ 40 and then rendezvous with America in SZ 45 on UK 3 with a fleet sufficiently large that Japan has no possible chance to sink it and set up for an invasion of Philippines, Borneo and E. Indies next round.  Japan cannot protect all three!

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    I have no idea what forces you are talking about.

    If Japan did NOT attack SZ 30 they are facing:

    USA: 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Transport, 2 Destroyers, Battleship
    UK: Carrier, Fighter, 2 Transports, Submarine, Destroyer

    Japan has 2 Carriers, 2 Battleships, 3 Transports, 6 Fighters, Bomber

    After one round, with Japan attacking to “strafe” you would have:

    Japan kills 3 Transports, Submarine for 32 IPC in damage to the Allies
    Japan loses 3 Fighters, 3 Transports for 54 IPC in damage to Japan

    If Japan does kill the SZ 30 fleet, then they are reduced by 4 fighters and a carrier.

    Japan attacks with 2 battleships, 2 fighters, bomber, 3 transports
    America defends with battleship, 4 fighters, 2 carriers, transport, 2 destroyers

    Japan kills a fighter and a transport, 18 IPC in equipment destroyed
    Japan loses 3 transports with a good possibility of another fighter, 24-34 IPC lost

    Honestly, Japan is not in a good position to attack the American fleet at any point. Let alone being able to attack without “losing any of its fleet.”

    And yes, that’s only 1 round of American builds for fleet.  You might be able to punch out more damage if you build a destroyer and 2 transports, I assumed Japan with only two transports for builds to give you more flexibility.  However, the damage you take from the Americans or the Combined fleet wouldn’t change, only the possibility of doing more damage to them in round 1.

    C’mon, c’mon. I want to see results, not theory. Play some damn games with this crazy strategy. Besides, your math is completely off. It takes 3 turns to link up those fleets. And how can you assume that Japan only has 3 TP’s in that time span or hasn’t even built more attack fleet or aircraft?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    UK 1 to SZ 30
    UK 2 to SZ 40
    UK 3 to SZ 45

    That’s what I said, if you read something else, then I apologize for being confusing.

    As for “crazy strategy” the thread is called Crazy George!  Of course, that was the idea of 3 infantry + fighter from India/SZ 35 to FIC on Round 1, thus negating the survivability of a SZ 30 fleet merger.

    As for just the SZ 30 fleet merger, that’s a pretty safe move.  Costs Japan a lot more then England to sink that fleet.

    As for builds, i already adjusted for that.  I said Japan’s builds would do nothing more then do more damage to the allies when he attacks.  But since you said you wanted to hit them for one round and retreat, the extra damage to the defender is not very important, only the damage you take.  You stated that your strafe wouldn’t cost Japan anything, I’ve shown that it actually will, on average 32-40 IPC in damage on top of damaging the two battleships.



    Okay, so in Round 1 Japan buys 2 Transports, Destroyer (Switch’s stated build when suspecting KJF.)


    In Round 2 you have 34 IPC (32 + 2 Saved ) as you are only up China.  You sank the SZ 30 fleet and have a Battleship remaining (what the odds say you will have.) You sunk Pearl and have a Submarine, Destroyer, Battleship, Carrier and 2 Fighters in Pearl (You lost the 4th transport as fodder in SZ 52, Switch’s attack plan, as stated above.)

    You purchase 6 infantry to fill your transports (after J2 you have no infantry in range of SZ 60 to fill transports) leaving you 16 IPC which you buy 2 submarines.

    End of Round 2 Fleet for Japan: 2 Battleships (1 extremely far away and out of battle for a long time coming from SZ 30, so 3 turns it’s out of the picture at least), 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, 3 Submarines, 2 Destroyers, 3 Transports

    End of Round 2 American Fleet: 2 Destroyers, 1 Transport, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Battleship, 5 Submarines


    Round 3: You are forced to retreat out of SZ 52 because you cannot defend against the American fleet.  Also, any “strafe” on the American fleet would be meaningless.  A few submarines sunk in exchange for your submarines, destroyers and possible fighters.

    You decide, with 32/33 IPC to build 6 infantry to fill your transports (assuming you have Buryatia and China now, moving to take India with the IC!) leaving you 15 IPC, that’s only 1 ship, let’s call it a destroyer.  You save 3 IPC.

    Japans Fleet now: 2 Battleships, Carrier, 2 Fighters, 3 Submarines, 3 Transports, 2 Destroyers
    America’s Fleet now: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 7 Submarines, Transport, 2 Destroyers


    Round 4: You still cannot attack India, but at least England cannot get FIC!  You would be able too, but your threw your fighters away in SZ 30 sinking the British fleet!  You other fighters are with your fleet protecting it from America.  And all you have on the mainland are some infantry, 1 artillery, 1 armor.  You’re facing at least 10 infantry of England in India +/- some Russian armor as anchors or even a Russian fighter, if needed.  But you have Sinkiang finally…

    Japan has 38 IPC (35 + 3) allowing you to build 6 infantry, submarine, destroyer

    Japanese Fleet now: 2 Battleships, Carrier, 2 Fighters, 4 Submarines, 3 Transports, 3 Destroyers
    America’s Fleet (now in SZ 45 with ownership of Solomons): 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 7 Submarines, Transport, 2 Destroyers
    +
    America’s reserve Fleet (SZ 55): Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters, America saves 2 IPC

    You can neither sink the American fleet in SZ 45 and won’t be able too on offense for at least two rounds, nor will you be able to stop it from taking either E. Indies or Borneo and once America has that, it’s only time before the game is over for Japan.

    Meanwhile, America’s putting together a small fleet to bring reinforcements from home.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Blah blah blah. Less talk the talk, more walk the walk.

    P.S. Japan no sinkee the sz30 fleet on J1. Peon fleets don’t get attention until they can be crushed proper like.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Let’s pretend Japan does not hit SZ 30, thus saving 4 fighters and a carrier, but leaving the British fleet to harass them.

    UK 1: Carrier, Fighter, Destroyer, 2 Transports, Submarine (SZ 30)
    Japan 1:  2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 3 Transports, Submarine, 2 Destroyers (1 Transport lost as fodder in SZ 52)
    USA 1: 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Battleship, Destroyer, Transport (SZ 55)


    UK 2: Carrier, Fighter, Destroyer, 2 Transports, Submarine (Either SZ 37 or SZ 47 with ownership of either E. Indies or New Guinea)
    Japan 2: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 3 Transports, 3 Submarines, 2 Destroyers (SZ 60?)
    USA 2: Battleship, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Transport, 5 Submarines, 2 Destroyers (SZ 55)


    UK 3: Carrier, Fighter, Destroyer, 2 Transports, Submarine (Either SZ 37 or SZ 47 with ownership of both E. Indies and New Guinea)
    Japan 3: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 3 Transports, 4 Submarines, 3 Destroyers (SZ 60/61?)
    USA 3: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Transport, 7 Submarines, 2 Destroyers (SZ 55)


    UK 4: Carrier, Fighter, Destroyer, 2 Transports, Submarine (SZ 45 with ownership of E. Indies?, New Guinea and Solomons)
    Japan 4: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 3 Transports, 6 Submarines, 3 Destroyers (assuming no transports lost reclaiming E. Indies)
    USA 4: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, Transport, 7 Submarines, 2 Destroyers (SZ 45 with England)
    USA 4: Carrier, 2 Fighters in SZ 55


    Japan 5:  Japan can attack SZ 45 and it will look like this:

    Attacker: 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 3 Transports, 6 Submarines, 3 Destroyers, Bomber (assuming your other two fighters are assisting in taking India or other lands on Asia)
    Defender: 2 Battleships, 3 Carriers, 5 Fighters, 3 Transports, 8 Submarines, 3 Destroyers

    Estimated result of a battle to the death: Defender losses 8 Submarines, 2 Transports (saving American transport), 3 Destroyers.  Attacker wiped out.

    Attacker survives: 1.8% of the time
    Defender survives: 98% of the time

    Sure, it cost the allies 116 IPC in equipment.  But Japan lost 243 and their entire navy and most of their air force to do it.

    Meanwhile, sure, they have the Industrial Complex in India at this point, and have probably set up a trade of Novosibirsk with Russia.  Germany’s probably consistently trading W. Russia, Ukraine and Karelai/Archangelsk with the allies and owns most of Africa.

    But from this point on, Japan is no longer landing troops in Asia.  Limiting them to 3-6 ground units a round while America cleans up the remaining islands and puts ICs in E. Indies and Borneo so they can land directly in FIC without needing a train.

    If Japan falls and Russia falls, I think the Allies are ahead.  England’s an island and it’ll take a turn or two for Germany to get transports in the water to even start landing.  Meanwhile, America is secure enough to move the fleet anywhere and can land directly in Asia.  Germany’s going to have to deal with 6 Industrial Complexes in Asia + an American fleet. (Manchuria, Kwangtung, FIC, Borneo, E. Indies and Japan.  Total output 25 units a round, capacity wise.)

    Yea, that’s 75 IPC a round if it’s all infantry.  But with USA (42) + Japan (30) and, Buryatia, Yakut and Soviet Far East, America HAS 75 IPC a round!  And if America doesn’t, then there’s no reason to say they HAVE to use all those ICs to capacity!  Or even build 2 more in Asia (I’m assuming Japan built one somewhere after their navy was destroyed to at least be able to put feet on the street in Asia.)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @U-505:

    Blah blah blah. Less talk the talk, more walk the walk.

    P.S. Japan no sinkee the sz30 fleet on J1. Peon fleets don’t get attention until they can be crushed proper like.

    I type fast, NOT THAT FAST!  Sheesh.

    Anyway, I’ve never lost a game where I went KJF on this or AAMC boards.  I don’t play on DAAK and FOE is out for the count as far as I can tell.

  • 2007 AAR League

    La la la la la la la la la la la. I can’t hear you!

    You go play games now. You win, you come back rub my nose in the poopy. You lose, you come back admit defeat and I rub you nose in the poopy.


  • I’d just like to note that I’m playing a game of Enhanced right now where Britain unified in SZ 30 on UK1.

    My Japanese partner hit it with 1 BB, 1 Carrier, and only THREE Figs, and won…losing only the carrier and 2 Figs (the other landing on the second carrier near Australia).

    In my experience, every time UK has unified in SZ 30, he has lost all of his ships. Japan’s losses vary, but the end result seems to be the same for the UK everytime.

    Sure, the dice might go your way…but if they don’t, you’re going to be kicking yourself.

    I can think of a dozen things I’d do in the Pacific as UK before I would unify in SZ 30…I’d rather give Japan a bunch of little targets rather than a single giant bullseye to shoot at.


  • Britain can also unify its Indian / Australian fleet southwest of Australia, where they can’t be hit by more than a couple of fighters.  If I remember correctly, that is.

    Of course, that usually costs a retake of Anglo-Egypt.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    No, only SZ 38 and SZ 30 are valid links for UK on UK 1.

    The point of the unified UK fleet is to ask Japan to hit it.  Any losses by Japan here makes KJF more viable, not less.

    And 505, I’ll gladly challenge you to a KJF.  I’ve yet to lose a KJF and only won a KJF where I was the axis once, and that was more due to the dice allowing Germany to take Moscow then any strategy employed by Japan.


  • @Cmdr:

    I’ve yet to lose a KJF and only won a KJF where I was the axis once, and that was more due to the dice allowing Germany to take Moscow then any strategy employed by Japan.

    Out of how many games ( a guess is good enough)
    5?
    10?
    20?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Not many people go the KJF route, so I’ve defended against 3 or 4 games of KJF.  I’ve engaged in half a dozen to a dozen games of KJF in the year I have played Revised.  Probably closest to about 8 games +/- 1 or 2.

    Total (defense + offense) about 12 games.

    Of which, I’ve seen Axis win once.  By win, I mean Russia falls with sufficient time for Germany to kick the Allies out of Asia before Japan falls.  Japan falling, to me, means that they are land locked to the Japan territory with no significant fleets or land based forces. (1 infantry dude in Evenki holding down the fort is NOT significant.  21 Infantry, 8 Armor, 2 Fighters holding down the fort in Evenki is significant.  To put some perspective on it.)

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