• 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    In fact, barring horrid Allied play, I have yet to see a Channel Dash/Fleet Unification strat that was worth the cost to Germany.

    What am I? Chopped liver? I’ve won multiple games using the Channel Dash. Of course I’ve modified it to only be used when Germany hasn’t lost any of it’s fighters on R1 because of my Low Luck results but I’ve still used it effectively with only 5 German fighters. I’ve also had to build a CV in the Med to make sure if anything is left in sz7 they can be protected from attack when they move to sz13 the following turn. Without the Med fleet for cover the Allies can just stack in sz8 and let the German fleet go. The UK can clear out any blocking forces in sz12 and take Algeria and the US can hit sz13 with 1 DD, 2 TP, all of the aircraft that moved toward the Atlantic on US1, and any aircraft that are in E Can or on a CV built in sz10. If you are going to make that move without building navy on G1 then your best bet would be to build at least 1 more fighter in case Germany loses everything in sz7 but the UK has taken more than average damage to still give yourself the option of attacking with only aircraft if it is to your advantage.

    @ncscswitch:

    So the initial fight is:
    UK:  2 TRN (fodder), 1 BB, 2 FIG, 1 BOM
    Germany:  1 TRN, 3 SUB, 1 DST

    Right. Not exactly overwhelming odds. There are 2 things to remember here. First, as powerful as two 3’s and two 4’s look, the average number of hits is still only 2. Second, Germany has 5 defensive rolls there. Again, the average is only 2 hits, but 5 rolls, even at low numbers, is still not bad. 3 hits is not out of the question.

    Even at 3 hits for both sides it doesn’t hurt Germany that much because now Germany can save 1 SS, 1 DD and make the UK gamble that if they push that attack the remaining German SS doesn’t sink the UK BB. And if they retreat, the US is stuck letting them survive or risk the bomber attacking with the DD covered by the SS to take a hit for it.

    But lets assume average results. 2 hits for both sides. That leaves Germany with 3 submerged subs. The US can reasonably kill 1, but that leaves the UK with 1 CV, 1 BB, 1 DD, 2 fig, 1 TP and Germany with 2 SS in sz7 and now Russia has to gamble on attacking 2 SS just to get their sub in to reinforce the UK fleet. If they trade subs, I’m happy. If they all miss, I’m still happy. If Russia doesn’t attempt an attack there, I’m REALLY happy. Any one of those results leaves the UK staring at likely losing their starting fleet plus 1st round builds and Germany coming out of it with probably 1/3 or 1/2 of their airforce intact and no UK threat for 2 turns.

    It might look bad for Germany to lose most of their aircraft until you realize that the UK would be losing all but their bomber and even the remaining German airforce will require that the UK build at least 1 more capital ship to protect their newly built TP’s. With UK’s income being reduced both in Africa and the Pacific they can hardly afford to have to rebuild their entire navy.

    There are a few things that can go wrong for Germany there, but a lot more bad things can happen to the Allies in that situation. Germany can afford to lose their Baltic fleet if the rolls go against them but the UK can be in real trouble if the rolls even go average or favor Germany.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Oh yeah. Welcome back Tri.


  • @Romulus:

    The opening is interesting but it should be compared with other options, to be evaluated.

    Leaving the baltic fleet in Sz5, for example, is a better idea, IMHO.
    If UK attacks with 2 Fig and 1 Bmb then German have a chance to kill at least one fig, that is also an inreresting gain.
    In this way Sub in sz 8 goes to attack Sz13, and so the BB goes to attack the DD in Sz15, followed by the TRN for invading Egypt (if you have also a bid there) or TJ (just to seal the Suez canal).

    Moreover 1 DD for UK is not such a great gain for Germany. 1 DD for UK is an useful build, it adds defensive power to the fleet and lessens the danger from SUB attacks. Normally, in fact, I do not attack the Baltic fleet in UK1, postponing the attack to Uk2 or UK3.

    Yes, but, what happens when there are no subs left to defend against? Then you’ve basically got an almost useless piece on the board.  The DD can’t bombard like the Battleship, it can’t hold fighters like a carrier, it can’t transport guys like a transport.  It’s only really useful if the enemy is putting down subs like  no tomorrow.


  • When I attack the German Baltic Fleet I send the DD.
    Naturally DD is not such a useful ship for UK, but I think that British may afford to buy one of them, if they do not lose FIG in UK1.

    I agree with U-505 that to have worthy results from a Naval strategies German player have to spend something for buying ships.
    Otherwise having as objective forcing UK to buy a DD is not a bad result but neither is great one.

    Leaving Baltic Fleet in sz5 and shooting down a FIG is a comparable result IMHO. If two FIG are hit then is the case to be really happy!


  • @U-505:

    What am I? Chopped liver?

    Sorry, I should have said in games I have played :-D

    No offense intended U-505.  8-)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Why buy a Destroyer OR a Carrier with England?  Combine your fleet in SZ 12 (USSR Sub, UK BB/2Trn, US DD/2 Trn) and have America buy the blasted aircraft carrier!  For one, she can afford it.  For another, America’s going to move between England’s turn and Germany’s next turn, so she can always put the Aircraft Carrier where it is needed most anyway.  For yet another, America’s going to be the one who has to deal with the German and then the Japanese fleets anyway, so she may as well be ready for it.

    What to do with England?  Get enough units to fill your 2 transports, and get fighters, lots of fighters.  Meanwhile, get your Indian Ocean and SE Australian fleets to England ASAP.  this will give you: 1 BB, 1 AC, 4 TRN, 1 SS, 1 DD which is plenty for England.  And it only takes a few turns, plenty of time for the Russians to hold the Germans and Japanese back.  Just don’t waste time!

    What to do in the meantime?  Well, America has a pretty nice fleet of planes!  Get those suckers to Africa and sink the German fleet!  Lost your air force?  Awe, well build it again!  It’s America, you arn’t exactly going to be financially strapped anyway!  (By turn 3 or 4 you are down to 37 IPC, more then Russia starts with, more then England starts with and more then Japan starts with.  Not exactly hard pressed IMHO.)

    America, IMHO, can afford a fighter every round.  You can still fill 4 transports and get a fighter every round with left overs at 37 IPC and with that many fighters, who needs tanks?

  • 2007 AAR League

    Jen, did you just suggest that the Allies should stack in sz12 with a German fleet of 1 DD, 3 SS, 1 TP in sz7 and most, if not all, of their aircraft within range? That’s asking for a fleet trade that entirely favors Germany. You’re basically telling the Russian player not to expect any help for at least 2 turns with Germany outproducing them by probably 50%. That doesn’t even factor in the situations where Germany has the Med BB/TP in sz13. In that case, what Germany would have left in sz12 would cost the Allies even more to clean out. The Channel Dash severly limits the UK build and move options on UK1.

    @ncscswitch:

    @U-505:

    What am I? Chopped liver?

    Sorry, I should have said in games I have played :-D

    No offense intended U-505.   8-)

    None taken. It makes more sense now that my existence isn’t in question. :lol: :wink:

    I know it’s a risky move but, it’s a risky move that forces the Allies into a possibly riskier move to counter it or allow Germany to more solidly control the Med and threaten any African landings and Allied navy in sz12.


  • Why buy a Destroyer OR a Carrier with England?

    Ah, that’s my girl! But you have the idea wrong, you shouldn’t stack SZ12, just like U-505 says. The UK can simply drop troops along Karelia’s northern border, free from all Luftwaffe, without purchasing any naval defense. Isn’t that awesome? And here we were talking about buying a dest/car to counter a running Baltic.  :roll:

    I believe that the best option is to strafe the Unbaltic fleet. It is no more dangerous to strafe the Unbaltic than it is the normal Baltic fleet because the added sub doesn’t add any direct danger to airplanes. It does make it harder to completely triumph there because you have to cut through an extra ship, but I think you do need to do some damage to it before it escapes to the Med. Otherwise it will come out roaring and massively disrupt the US chain.

    Total victory has very tepid odds when you’re sending 2 fighters 1 bomber against 3 sub 1 tp 1 dest, but you should be able to nail the 3 subs before you’re on your way out, which detaches a lot of the threat. Or if the subs submerge, you might want to buy an extra carrier with the US and also remember to strafe them with the bomber. When you take out 1/3-1/2 of the Unbaltic fleet, the UK can simply start with a 3 tran build and hide in SZ2 with 1 bb 4 tran 1 sub. 2-3 subs isn’t going to accomplish very much against that, considering it takes more than 2 hits to actually get to a transport.

    Leaving the baltic fleet in Sz5, for example, is a better idea, IMHO.
    If UK attacks with 2 Fig and 1 Bmb then German have a chance to kill at least one fig, that is also an inreresting gain.
    In this way Sub in sz 8 goes to attack Sz13, and so the BB goes to attack the DD in Sz15, followed by the TRN for invading Egypt (if you have also a bid there) or TJ (just to seal the Suez canal).

    If the Allies want Africa, they will get it. Even with a bb + tran contesting Africa from the beginning, I somehow do not manage to get very far anyways because of how easily the Allies can reinforce Africa. However, if you make the effort to salvage as much German fleet as possible, it will serve you better as suicide fodder to knock out a round of Allied shipping. Leaving the Baltic navy in SZ5 is just as Jennifer noted in another post - at best annoying, at worst impotent. The UK could even wait a turn to build an extra fighter or two before taking out the static Baltic, but if the Germans actively run it away, it calls for immediate, and IMO risky action.

    If the Allies are so passive as to not do anything, the German fleet looks like 3 sub 2 tran 1 bb 1 dest in the Med. That’s an incredible amount of fodder which could completely sabotage both US and UK ability to transport things for 1-2 turns, combined with airforce. The UK should strafe the Unbaltic, which would generally mean still losing 1-2 fighters (same as attacking regular Baltic). So again, I don’t see how sitting in the Baltic produces better results. If you do that, you usually wind up with a total fleet of 1 bb 1 tp and that’s it for the whole game, at the cost of 1-2 UK fighters. The Unbaltic is much scarier! ‘;…;’

  • 2007 AAR League

    @trihero:

    If the Allies are so passive as to not do anything, the German fleet looks like 3 sub 2 tran 1 bb 1 dest in the Med.

    Add to that a CV or CV/TP built in sz14 on G1 and that fleet becomes instantly formidable enough to venture out of the Med to menace Allied shipping.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I still refuse to believe that Germany should be wasting that kind of money on fleet.

    I just finished a game where the German player kicked the allied navies out of the Atlantic by Germany 3.  He lost.  Why?  Because Russia turtled up, England and America moved in massive air force and then Russia pushed forward.  A russian infantry stack + 20 allied fighters landing behind it is NOT getting strafed by Germany.

    Course, I was also annoying the ever living hell out of Japan with a sizable British navy and a small American contingent of warships.  He was able to hold off without losing more then New Guinea and E. Indies, but at the cost of not being able to push hard on Russia.

    In that game, Germany should have stopped iwth fleet.  But he didnt.  he kept building just enough that I couldnt sink him with a 1, 2, 3 punch with my air force.  (not that I was going to throw away 260 IPC in fighters to do it! (7 British Fighters, 1 British Bomber, 13 American Fighters, 1 American Bomber, 3 Russian Fighters) but he did.


  • I don’t think the Germans should buy any navy, either. I did start out thinking that the Germans should always buy a carrier at first, I suppose like anyone else. It’s just one of those things you grow out of I guess, like peeing in your bed!  :? :-o :-D


  • @trihero:

    I don’t think the Germans should buy any navy, either. I did start out thinking that the Germans should always buy a carrier at first, I suppose like anyone else. It’s just one of those things you grow out of I guess, like peeing in your bed!  :? :-o :-D

    If you know what I mean by golden showers, you know that some people don’t grow out of peeing in their beds.  :wink:

    I’m still undecided on whether or not purchasing navy for Germany’s first turn is a categorically bad decision.


  • Considering what has been said on another thread, I am wondering about buying an AC on first turn: could it be a good counter for a KJF? (if Russia player make an opening that may support a KJF)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Nothing is a categorically bad choice for German builds.  It’s more a question of what is more effective?


  • @Jennifer:

    Nothing is a categorically bad choice for German builds.

    Eight tech rolls for Combined Bombardment destroyer tech.

    pwnt?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Not categorically bad.  You could force the allies to garrison the hell out of England at the cost of Africa. :)

    Not very likely, but not categorically bad either.


  • Eight tech rolls for Combined Bombardement detroyer tech…. FAILED!


  • :-o
      Seems I’m behind the curve on this thread, it has morphed from the original subject a bit. But everyone seems to have forgotten about the RUSSIAN sub? It can easily block the germans from dashing out of the med on G2 to attack the left over Britts off of the Brittany coast. I worked this out on an earlier thread when I suggested a bid-build buy of a sub to be placed in the mid-Atlantic. In that scenario, Germany would have had 4 subs, DD and a Transport in sz6! But without the threat of the BB and transport from Gibralter, in a counter-attack, the Britts wiped out my re-inforced Baltic fleet. Their build of a carrier+fighter and a transport went in with the BB to keep my luftwaffe in their hangers or go looking for easier targets. :|
      My Germany Navy builds are a bid-buy of a transport in the Med followed by a regular buy of a 2 transports in the Baltic. This makes it much riskier, (and possibly rewarding) for the Britts to attack any of Germanys fleets on UK1. Germany needs to bring its’ Atlantic sub to the attack of the British Med BB with the german BB and Transport and invade Gibralter, thus removing that landing field. Reinforce Algeria with armor, inf, and fighters, to keep the Britts out is also very important.
    The big ? is how far should Germany go with this strategy? What is your goal? Delay or Superiority in the Med/Atlantic. It is really up to the individual player after all.
      C.I  :roll:


  • That’s an interesting point about the Russian sub, but “all” it takes is for one German fighter to go attack it and force it to die or submerge, then the German fleet links up in SZ7 as predicted  :wink: It does require for a German fighter to be open, but rarely do I find I can’t spare 1 fighter unless Russia was super aggressive and super lucky on their first push.

    Superiority in the Med is costly :*( You can spend a lot of IPCs there just to go back and forth with the US over 1-2 IPCs -_-a

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Kriegsmarine Superiority is usually an exercise in futility.  You just cannot out produce the Americans, no matter how hard you try.  And with minimal investments, England can easily sink your fleets in the Med or in the Baltic or both.  It may slow the allies down, which I think is the point, but at what cost in the long run?

    How many aircraft carriers and destroyers and submarines do the Germans need to win Axis and Allies?  On the other hand, how many battleships does Russia need to win Axis and Allies?

    In other words, is your goal Moscow, or elaborate Fish Condos?

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