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Siberian Units



  • I tried a new strategy in my last game. Face to face, 5 players, revised with faq’s. I was USSR.

    In all my past games, siberian units (6 inf) joint in Buryatia or Yakutia. That mean Japan chewed them in Buryatia by shore bomb + massive amphibious assault or doing nothing in Yakutia because japaneses many times send massive forces anyway by 6-7 turn.

    This time, I sent siberian and Novosibirsk units to China, plus 2 inf from Russia’s IC. Added to Indian and Sinkiang ICs they managed hold China and even conquer Manchuria and Kwantung! We got a bit (only a bit) of luck and even a soviet inf managed survive a showdown with massive japanese units (10 sov+3 chinese vs about 15 japanese units)!

    Japan couldn’t recover his Kwantung IC, so it was out of Asian mainland, reduced to 21 IPCs. Plus, japanese player sent his fleet to a suicide attack against superior USA/Australian joint fleet who can’t hit Japan anyway and got only 13 IPC’s. It was about turn 7. German player was too far away from Moscow (I had 7 tanks  :mrgreen:) and surrended.

    Strangely, japanese player said he still have a chance  :lol:

    Well, obviously, japanese player played very bad his fleet. But I think siberian soviet units are better aiding China survive than doing nothing in Yakutia. Thoughts?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    They’re usually even better marching through Ukraine to Poland (E. Europe) to Berlin. 🙂

    But that’s a classic Kill Japan First strategy.

    A smart German player would have gone for a tank and fighter dash.  Fighters to kill or slow down the British, tanks to crush the Russians.  Maybe develop rockets to slow Russia more and maybe a second bomber to reduce Russia to cinders.

    But yea, it’s the only way America can keep an IC in Sinkiang against the Japanese is with MASSIVE Russian reinforcements, usually up to about round 10 when America finally has 10 armor there to defend it without help.



  • There is another way to defend that IC other than “massive” USSR assistance.  Perhaps I will show you sometime in a game where I play the allies 😛



  • like what? sending in tons of figs? Seems like a waste to me, if the allies are spending their ipc on figs that are going to defend Sinkiang.



  • The best defense is a good offense…

    From there I will let you folks figure it out.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    The best defense is a good offense…

    From there I will let you folks figure it out.

    sounds interesting

    but i ve played you twice already 😢

    nah, no more sorrow :lol:



  • Well, German player buyed an aircraft carrier in Baltic Sea, and make some carnage with allied fleet in Atlantic, so german fighters were busy killing allied ships. Luckily, western allies managed buy another fleet at time.

    In fact, I only sent 8 siberian units plus 2 new built to China, all the other buys went against the german. Last turn before axis surrendering, my income was 34 with USSR.

    I think saving Sinkiang IC is a good way of stopping japanese advance in Asia. Sure, that 10 units would stop the germans a bit, but they may arrive too late, and letting japaneses alone in Asia are bad news for USSR … losing siberian production means less units against germans anyway …


  • 2007 AAR League

    I’ve never faced a Sinkiang IC before. Hmm.

    I think there is definitely value in making Japan fight for every advance, instead of just pulling out entirely.

    There are basically three mini-fronts against Japan on the main-land. If you put a little resistance up at each one, Japan may be able to overcome you at any one of them, but not at all of them - that’s the point. If you just pull out they can advance along all three without any delay or loss, and they get real huge real fast. If you force them to commit more to taking India, they have sent less through to Sinkiang, and you can reinforce there another turn and make that even harder, perhaps even re-take China, and so on.

    You have to make Japan pay for real estate, don’t just give it away. But don’t get your units killed for nothing either.

    A little stack of Inf in Novo / Kazak, backed up by tanks in Moscow, can really keep the Japanese at bay because you can slaughter any significant force they put in to Yakut / Sinkiang.



  • I agree, with Frood.
    Moreover a good use for siberian troops is: massing them in Novsibirsk, reinforcing them, and using them to counter Japanese advance in Yakut and Sinkiang.

    The objective is to delay the Japanese to give time to Britain and USA to reinforce URSS. Then URSS may pull off some tanks and infantry from the Western German front and then use them to reinforce the Eastern Front.



  • @ncscswitch:

    There is another way to defend that IC other than “massive” USSR assistance.  Perhaps I will show you sometime in a game where I play the allies 😛

    My strategy involves shaved monkeys

    Because NOBODY can ignore a shaved monkey.



  • @ncscswitch:

    The best defense is a good offense…

    From there I will let you folks figure it out.

    I bet he’s talking about the India/Ssinkiang/US Pacific offense.

    OR . . .

    SHAVED MONKEYS

    Frood, your post never put in any mention of time frame.  That’s a very important omission.

    If you leave a little stack in Novosibirsk/Kazakh, when you attack into Yakut/Ssinkiang, the even bigger block of infantry stomps on your force without fear of retribution.  IF it’s some time after turn 5, that is.

    If you leave a little stack in Novosibirsk/Kazakh, when you attack into Yakut/Ssinkiang, you can probably wipe out some Japs with little fear of return losses.  IF it’s turn 2-3, that is.

    Gambling with Allied ICs is very dangerous.  Once Japan secures an additional mainland IC close to the action, there is a lot more pressure on the Allies.  If you are going to go for India/Ssinkiang ICs, Russia MUST assist with defense.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    2 Infantry in Sinkiang, 1 Industrial Complex.

    Japan has 5 Infantry in China + half a dozen fighters and a bomber.

    Please, tell us how you defend Sinkiang without Russian reinforcements?  And how do you keep it if Japan keeps stacking up next to it without at least matching 50% of Japan’s stacks with Russian units.

    BTW, you only have 5 rounds.  Because most games result in Russia needing to fight off the Germans by then at the very least.


  • 2007 AAR League

    NPB, I’m talking turns 2-4. Beyond that I don’t like to discuss general strategy because so much can change by then it becomes meaningless.

    Even if the Sinkiang IC CAN be defended, the fact is that you are then forced to defend it. Your hands are then somewhat tied strategically, and your opponent can exploit that.



  • I never said w/o Russian reinforcements, i said without MASSIVE Russian reinforcements.

    And for anyone to see what I have in mind, check out the Games area… Nix pulled it on me about a year or so ago, and it wreaked havoc with my Japan moves until around J11 or so when I FINALLY took the USA IC in Sinkiang…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Ah, okay.  So the boggle is what you consider massive reinforcements for Russia and what I consider Massive reinforcements from Russia.

    If on Turn 1 you put more then 2 infantry in Sinkiang with Russia, that is massive
    If on Turn 2 you have more then 9 IPC of units in Sinkiang as Russia, that is massive
    If on Turn 3 you have more then 32 IPC of units in Sinkiang if two are fighters, or 18 IPC in units in Sinkiang, that is massive.

    Etc.

    IMHO, if Russia has to dedicate more then 24 IPC (not including Fighters) to the defense of Sinkiang in any round before Round 7 you have too many reinforcements in Sinkiang for an IC that only produces two units a round and you are weakening yourself against Germany, who is probably pistol whipping England and calling her a bad girl while England says “thank you, may I have another?”



  • Then Turn 1 is “massive” in my scenario, turn 2 is marginal, but form Turn 3 forward, hell and gone from massive.



  • When I play Russia usually I withdraw my infantry to Novosibirsk. Then from R3 on I start to reinforce there with 1 infantry at turn. Depending on the German results on the West, and from the reinforcement brought by UK/USA, my strategy is to counterattack the Japanese advance in order to gain time, the problem is that only infantry do not achieve nothing.
    Usually I buy a tank or an artillery piece a turn to be used againist Germany with the hope to free the FIG for counterattacking Japanese.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I used to go 4 Infantry to Sinkiang on R1.  Then I realized that 4 infantry on the german front is HUGE!  Sinkiang is worth 2 IPC to Japan.  Ukraine is worth 3 IPC to Russia.  Which is more valuable to Russia?


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    I used to go 4 Infantry to Sinkiang on R1.  Then I realized that 4 infantry on the german front is HUGE!  Sinkiang is worth 2 IPC to Japan.  Ukraine is worth 3 IPC to Russia.  Which is more valuable to Russia?

    Both.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    It’s an either or question, Dan.  You can either reinforce Sinkiang massively on Russia 1, or you can hold Ukraine on Russia 2.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I was being cheeky. My point is hold both if you can, for as long as possible. I think its v. important to slow Japan down as much as possible. The US and UK can help with Germany, but only Russia can really keep Japan at bay. Germany can’t hold Ukraine early on without getting into a war of attrition with Russia, which will leave it underpowered

    But your Eastern Inf can’t be in Ukraine (except the 2 in Kazakh until R3, R4 at the earliest) anyway. So hold Yakut / SFE / Novo / Kaz etc. a few turns longer and you can build extra Inf much closer to the German front.



  • It’s an either or question, Dan.  You can either reinforce Sinkiang massively on Russia 1, or you can hold Ukraine on Russia 2.

    I would be scared to try to hold Ukraine on R2. Germany could strafe you down a lot! I guess it depends on your first moves. Is the standard still W Russia + Belorussia, or is it Ukraine/W. Russia?


  • 2007 AAR League

    @trihero:

    It’s an either or question, Dan.  You can either reinforce Sinkiang massively on Russia 1, or you can hold Ukraine on Russia 2.

    I would be scared to try to hold Ukraine on R2. Germany could strafe you down a lot! I guess it depends on your first moves. Is the standard still W Russia + Belorussia, or is it Ukraine/W. Russia?

    There’s some controversy there. IMHO Ukraine is not worth it, but WRus + Belo is pretty solid because taking out the Belo units, rather than spreading you out, actually makes your WRus position more secure because you remove most of Germany’s fodder for the counterattack on WRus.

    You can take out Ukraine to kill a fighter, but it likely means sacrificing a few tanks, which are more important to Russia than the Fighter is to Germany. That’s my view anyway. Some players talk about “strafing” ukraine on R1 which I think is silly because then you are taking fire from a Fighter that you are actually not even hoping to kill.

    Ukraine is a “trading” territory for the first couple of turns. It takes a while for either Russia or Germany to be able to move in with enough hardware to deter the counterattack.



  • Should have a vote for this:

    WRU+Ukr, WRU, WRU+Belo, or something else?

    For me it’s always WRU + Ukr.



  • There was already a thread with a voting about possible first turn Russian attack in past threads.
    Attacking Ukraine and holding is costly for Russian but allow to cash higher and force German to commit force there.
    Moreover it is good in the following turns trading for Ukraine.

    Strafing Ukraine is not silly. Strafing as always been aimed to kill infantry not tank nor fighter.
    Attacking Ukraine with 3 inf, 1 art, 3 tank and 2 fig allows for 21 die points. German defends with 15 die points. It is a perfect strafing scenario. Russia on average will inflict 3,5 hits and Germany will inflict 2,5. The strafing helps in securing West Russia because Germany have only 3 inf from Belorussia to cover the attack there. What is not gained from the strafing are the IPC from Ukraine.

    Attacking to conquer Ukraine is better then conquering Belorussia, IMHO. You destroy 1 more tank and 1 more fig and take 3 more IPC.
    The cost is the loss of 3 tank in the following counterattack.
    After West Russia and Ukraine Russia has 29 IPC = 1 Tank + 8 INF, starting to rebuild the tank force.

    Siberian Units are better employed in Novosibirsk. As Frood said on R2 only 2 inf may reach Ukraine and 4 may on R3. It is better to leave them in Siberia, stacking them for containing Japanese and trying to cashing high against Germany and then buying infantry directly on the German front.


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