Fullplacement bids vs 50/50 Units/Cash


  • 2007 AAR League

    I can’t help but feel that Fullplacement bids actually makes the Axis worse of than the 50-50 Units/Cash bids (I’ve heard the term FIDA bid for those games, don’t know if it is the correct term).

    • Fullplacement bids typically varies between 6-8 ipc on this site.
    • 50-50 bids were varying around 12 ipc (am i correct??)

    That means that the Axis are getting lower bids with fullplacement vs 50/50 bids.

    Yes, the Axis get to place all the bid on the board at start, which of course is an advantage , according to the economic priciple of Net Present Value ("a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow), but it is not enough to compensate for the lower bid-levels.

    So - what do you think ? You think that full-placement has led to more of an advantage for the Axis, the Allies, or is it the same as with 50/50 bids?



  • in sheer numbers, a FIDA bid (50/50) is better for the axis.

    I personally think the axis need a FIDA bid to overcome the allies (all things being equal, specifically, the dice!)


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    My experience is that a FIDA bid will usually be 1 IPC less then double what a person would normally bid for the Axis anyway.

    For instance, my habit has been to bid 9 IPC. (Partially because I’ve wanted the allies until I ironed out a workable Allied attack.) However, if I was forced into a FIDA I would go 17 IPC. (9*2-1) so that I could get the same units as normal, but still have enough cash to meed the FIDA requirement.

    This results in bids for the Axis in the 14-20 range instead of the 6-9 range that is normally seen.



  • FIDA bids average 9 overall (see the TripleA Ladder where the pre-set bid is $9 for all games)

    Here we average about $1.5 less for the Axis.  Some of us traditionally bid lower than that.

    And to be honest, my win rate is STILL better with the Axis than it is with the Allies, even with my reduced bid.


  • Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    FIDA bids average 9 overall (see the TripleA Ladder where the pre-set bid is $9 for all games)

    Wait, I didn’t think they used FIDA, I thought you could only place 1 unit per ter, which is different from FIDA.

    IMO, FIDA bids artifically inflate what the Axis gets.
    I don’t think the extra cash is that big of a deal, and I’d guess that those that win with say 12 FIDA, likely would have won with just the 6 bid.

    When I was playing some DAAK players I eventaully found that 12 was the going rate (with 2 inf to Lib).  That was probably 7-8 months ago.  Now it might be a little higher, but I’d probably start at around 15 now for FIDA and eventually work up to 17.  Which is right on to what Jen was saying (*2 - 1).

    If you think about, UK and US could SBR Ger in rd 2 and if they both score 3’s, then bye bye extra cash.

    It is the units that you immediately put on the board and where you place them that will make the biggest difference in the game.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    It is the units that you immediately put on the board and where you place them that will make the biggest difference in the game.

    True, but you can not discount getting the extra units AND having buying options for Germany/Japan round 1.

    It’s alot easier to afford a carrier with Germany if they get $4-5 extra. Ditto the option for 4 transports for Japan with only $2 extra.

    these can be huge differences between the standad all placement bid and the FIDA 50/50 bid.


  • 2007 AAR League

    IMO, FIDA bids artifically inflate what the Axis gets.

    Yes, that is kind of my point: FIDA bids result in bids that gives Axis approx. the same amount of units, as in a Fullplacement bid, but in ADDITION to that , the Axis also get a handful of $$$.

    Thus - the Axis is better off with FIDA bids , than with Fullplacement.

    I am leaning towards the  opinion that Fullplacement bid levels of 6-8 ipc, are too low for the Axis to be fully competitive. Therefore I think FIDA bids are preferable, in that that they give the Axis an extra edge, that I think that they need. Just my personal opinion though, that’s my I wanted to hear other peoples thought on this too.

    If you think about, UK and US could SBR Ger in rd 2 and if they both score 3’s, then bye bye extra cash.

    If UK/US uses their bombers to SBR Ger, then they can’t use them for attacking Axis units. And that account for something too.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    FIDA results in more units for the Axis, yes.  But half those units are on the capitol of those nations, usually at least two rounds away from the front. (Germany may put them on S. Europe, but close enough to the capitol.)

    Yes, it makes it more affordable for Germany to get a carrier.  However, I’d rather have 14 Infantry with 2 IPC bid to Berlin and more play with Japan with what’s left.  IMHO.  To me, 14 Infantry on G1 > 1 Carrier, 8 Infantry on G1.



  • Maybe the question should be phrased more like:

    Are the FIDA bids basically double (less one or two IPCs) of a standard straight bid?

    I think an $8 IPC bid is a large leap from $7 mainly because a transport can now be added for the axis.

    so the average bid is 8-7 (or less for those who like the axis)
    FIDA would mirror this 16-14.

    In my book $16 to $14 is greater than 8-7… am I missing something?  Just trying to get back to the original question.

    We're not discussing WHAT TO DO WITH THE EXTRA IPCs the axis gets (carriers or mas ya-men).

  • Moderator

    @Perry:

    Yes, that is kind of my point: FIDA bids result in bids that gives Axis approx. the same amount of units, as in a Fullplacement bid, but in ADDITION to that , the Axis also get a handful of $$$.

    Thus - the Axis is better off with FIDA bids , than with Fullplacement.

    Well yeah, its better to get 16 ipc (FIDA), than 8 (full placement).  Heck the more the merrier.   😄

    But my argument would be more geared toward the “extra” 8 in cash
    will not be the reason you win the game.  I just don’t think it adds significantly to whether the Axis will win.  Say a bid of 7 gives you 50/50 to win, I’d argue that a FIDA with 14 gives you essential a 50/50 shot as well.  Maybe it bumps you up to 51, 52?  Big deal.

    Consider a Full cash bid.  I’d grant someone as high as 20+ in a straight cash bid.
    Why?
    Cause that bid won’t help the Axis attacks G1 or J1.

    Not all bids are equal to begin with.

    IMO,
    PAfr (or a Med trn bid) is the strongest (2-3 units to Lib)
    PE is the next best with 2-3 units to Europe, and
    PA is the weakest (anything bid to J)

    I’d be more likely to grant 4 inf to Japan then I would 4 inf to Ger.

    The cash component acts the same way, the extra cash is nice but not the difference maker in the game, since it most likely will take you 2-3 turns to get that unit into play.  Example, 2 inf to Lib, 6 IPC to Ger bank.  Say they buy 2 more inf, they place in G1, move to EE on G2, move to Ukr G3.

    That is three turns where inf get traded and nickled and dimed on multiple fronts, SBRs happen, etc.

    There is so much that happens over the course of 2-3 rds that by the time they reach the front they might not be as valuable as they would have been if you could have just placed the extra inf on Ukr to start the game.

    I’d grant a FIDA bid up to 15-16 before I’d grant a 9 Full placement bid.

    Which is what I mean by artifically inflates bids.  Why have people bidding 15, 16, 17 when all they need is 7-9.

    As, I said I’d gladly take more but one of the biggest complaints about Classic was you needed to bid 22+ to have a shot, and I thought Revised was supposed to be more “balance”, so why start introducing bids that approach Classic levels (15-16+).

    It might be neat for a change of pace game or try new things to spice things up just like a declared bid game where you get higher bids cause people want to see what it is like to play Ger with an extra bom (15) or maybe 1 ftr, 1 inf (13), etc.

    But if you’re looking for the lowest bids needed to get a relatively even game Full Placement will get you there with the least amount of altering the initial game.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    Consider a Full cash bid.  I’d grant someone as high as 20+ in a straight cash bid.

    ZOMG!!!1!!


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @newpaintbrush:

    @DarthMaximus:

    Consider a Full cash bid.  I’d grant someone as high as 20+ in a straight cash bid.

    ZOMG!!!1!!

    Can I take you up on that, DM? 🙂



  • Jen beat me to it Darth…

    But if you want a League game with NO units as as the Axis and a bid of, shall we say $19, I would be happy to give you a run for your money.

    I have the Tournament pending, and Amon-Sul is giving me a run for his money with a near suicidal (but damn dangerous) German push on Moscow.  But I would still be happy to see what you have up your sleeve against an Axis $19 cash-only bid…


  • Moderator

    Lol!  🙂

    I was wondering who the first would be say, I’d take that!

    As I recall, someone already won a game giving up 20 one time, and that may have even been FIDA.  Hmmm, I can’t remember who though.  😄

    I’d play a “for fun game”, Axis get 20 in cash only.  It would have to be TripleA though, since I already have 2 games going.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    As I recall, someone already won a game giving up 20 one time, and that may have even been FIDA.  Hmmm, I can’t remember who though.  😄

    That would be me… Round 1, 2006 Singles Tournament against Trigger.  And it was an unrestricted bid…


  • Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    @DarthMaximus:

    As I recall, someone already won a game giving up 20 one time, and that may have even been FIDA.  Hmmm, I can’t remember who though.   😄

    That would be me… Round 1, 2006 Singles Tournament against Trigger.  And it was an unrestricted bid…

    Yep, it is all coming back to me.  🙂
    I should have used this –>  😉  instead of this -->  😄



  • And truth be told, it was a DAAK screw up.  My bid was like $7, but somehow DAAK gave the axis to Trigger.

    Fortunately, I still won with a Sea Lion Scare after G2 if memory serves 😄


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I just got nailed with a stealth FIDA.  Championship round AAR tourney in AAMC.  Trying to talk to my opponent cause it’d been 3 months since a round started and I totally forgot it was FIDA.  Almost nothing is FIDA anymore. 😕

    There’s a reason why almost nothing is FIDA.  Giving the axis anything more then 10 IPC is asking for problems for the Allies.  Even if it is 50/50.  Though, 100% cash isn’t as bad because you can decimate the Axis before they can bring those units to bear. (ie, take Algeria and Egypt.  Take W. Russia, Ukraine and maybe, if you are gutsy, E. Europe.)


  • 2007 AAR League

    What is FIDA?



  • @AJ:

    What is FIDA?

    http://aamc.net/bunker/forumsql/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68

    All AARevised games played in AAMC use FIDA bidding unless the players agree to another bid system prior to the game starting.  FIDA stands for Flames of Europe, IAAPA, DAAK and AAMC, the four clubs that developed the bidding system.  Under FIDA bidding, each player submits a number of IPCs for a bid.  The lower bid plays Axis.  Up to half of the value of those IPCs can be placed on the mapboard prior to the start of the game in new units.  Germany can place units in territories and sea zones that already contain German units.  Japan can place units in territories and sea zones that already contain Japanese units.  Neither Axis player can place units in territories or sea zones where it does not already have units.  The remaining balance of IPCs from the bid can be given to either Germany or Japan or split in whatever manner the Axis player chooses.

    Example of a bid:  15, 1 Inf in Ukraine, 1 Rtl in Libya, 6 IPC Germany, 2 IPC Japan.


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