Ukraine bid



  • i was thinking about what the game would be like if ukraine had an aa gun.



  • interesting idea for a $5 bid.

    If I get $8, I would use it on a transport over an AAA and inf in ukraine.



  • If the bid in Ukraine was only 1 AA I think that Russia should attack the same.

    Losing a fighter with Russian in R1 is very bad, but the odds in the subsequent battle are the same and, moreover, if the strafing went to good and russian tanks are stucked in Ukraine there is the same problem for the German in using its fighters in counterattack.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I usually don’t like to attack Ukraine, so my answer is “no” anyway.

    Further, if one is attacking Ukraine and another territory, then Ukraine can be attacked without air units, while the air units can be used against WR or Belo. So the AA makes no difference to the attack then.

    Finally, it just struck me yesterday that strafing Ukraine is a bad move. Strafing means that you are not intending to kill the Ftr, which means that you are taking hits from a Ftr for no reason. You could strafe WR instead which has the same units as Ukraine except for that pesky fighter which has a 2/3 chance each turn you strafe of killing a unit. So you have the opportunity to kill the same # of German units without getting shot at by a Ftr. Belo will do even less damage to a strafing attacker.

    My R1 now is generally to take WR in force. A strafe of Belo in addition might make sense, giving Ger less fodder for the counterattack on WR on G1. But I’d rather save my Inf and add them to WR, where they will defend on a 2, rather than attacking with them at 1.



  • @Frood:

    I usually don’t like to attack Ukraine, so my answer is “no” anyway.

    Further, if one is attacking Ukraine and another territory, then Ukraine can be attacked without air units, while the air units can be used against WR or Belo. So the AA makes no difference to the attack then.

    Finally, it just struck me yesterday that strafing Ukraine is a bad move. Strafing means that you are not intending to kill the Ftr, which means that you are taking hits from a Ftr for no reason. You could strafe WR instead which has the same units as Ukraine except for that pesky fighter which has a 2/3 chance each turn you strafe of killing a unit. So you have the opportunity to kill the same # of German units without getting shot at by a Ftr. Belo will do even less damage to a strafing attacker.

    My R1 now is generally to take WR in force. A strafe of Belo in addition might make sense, giving Ger less fodder for the counterattack on WR on G1. But I’d rather save my Inf and add them to WR, where they will defend on a 2, rather than attacking with them at 1.

    you need the figs for ukraine. you can only send cauc units plust the 2 tanks in russia.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Good point Cyan. I don’t usu. attack Ukraine as I said so I’m not totally familiar with it.



  • @Frood:

    Good point Cyan. I don’t usu. attack Ukraine as I said so I’m not totally familiar with it.

    no ones said even if it had 1 inf, 1 aa yet. aleast i know what bid i might try out next time.  :evil:

    i bet if NPB has here he would say something like:
    what?  a FREE aa gun for russia? thats better than crack for an owl.  :lol: :lol


  • 2007 AAR League

    @cyan:

    @Frood:

    Good point Cyan. I don’t usu. attack Ukraine as I said so I’m not totally familiar with it.

    no ones said even if it had 1 inf, 1 aa yet. aleast i know what bid i might try out next time.  :evil:

    i bet if NPB has here he would say something like:
    what?  a FREE aa gun for russia? thats better than crack for an owl.  :lol: :lol

    yes, thats his stile indeed 8-)


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.



  • you could probablly combine this with an IC there 1st turn. thats what i was goin at but want to see how effective a aa gun bid to  it be. so your sure to get and IC there 1st turn.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Woo hoo! An extra IC for Russia!

    If there was an IC in Russia you’d see the Med full of allied ships and Ukraine in Allied hands as priority #1.

    The advantage of the AA is that it would kill Ftrs if it hit, which is better than a tank. But it only fires on defence and only in the opening fire step.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Nah, Russia doesn’t need the IC in Ukraine.  Likewise, Germany does not need it.  If you want an IC for Germany, put it in W. Europe.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I think Norway’s about the only safe place for an IC in Europe. Building one in WE forces you to defend it at all costs when you may not want to. I could see it being good if you wanted naval dominance but that’s not a good plan for Germany.


  • 2007 AAR League

    What would an IC in Norway do for Germany?
    It would basically force Germany to build 3 Units in Norway each turn sucking away resources and eventually UK and USA will overpower it anyway IMO.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Sorry, I meant the only safe place for ANYONE to build an IC in Europe. Although the Allies can build one in WE once they have a solid beachhead. But that’s a game-finishing move.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Frood:

    Sorry, I meant the only safe place for ANYONE to build an IC in Europe. Although the Allies can build one in WE once they have a solid beachhead. But that’s a game-finishing move.

    Ooh yes in that case I agree!
    I can’t imagine any other place to build one under any circumstances I’ve seen.



  • @Jennifer:

    Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

    I have to agree 100% with Jen on this.  INF, 1 ARM is a FAR superior bid for Ukraine than 1 INF, 1 AA.

    And to add to her analysis above…
    1.  The AA Fires only once, so you roll the 2 ones only in round 1, then they are silent
    2.  The ARM will likely fire TWICE before it is killed, possibly more.
    3.  There will NOT be an AA gun to deter Germany using their FIGs and BOM for the counter-attack.



  • @ncscswitch:

    @Jennifer:

    Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

    I have to agree 100% with Jen on this.  INF, 1 ARM is a FAR superior bid for Ukraine than 1 INF, 1 AA.

    And to add to her analysis above…
    1.  The AA Fires only once, so you roll the 2 ones only in round 1, then they are silent
    2.  The ARM will likely fire TWICE before it is killed, possibly more.
    3.  There will NOT be an AA gun to deter Germany using their FIGs and BOM for the counter-attack.

    its more psychological. DO you risk losing one of your precious russian figs plus your tanks all ready associated with it. people don’t do ukraine because its risky. this makes even more risky.



  • Just FYI:

    With a 1 INF, 1 ARM bid, Russia on average FAILS TO TAKE UKRAINE, only 2 FIG remaining.
    With 1 INF, 1 AA bid, Russia on average takes with 3 ARM, 1 FIG.

    $5 IPC more dead Russians with the ARM over the AA, plus the loss of $3 of income, and no need for Germany to spend ARM on a Ukraine 1 Counter…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Used to be you could deter me from using fighters just by having an AA Gun present.  Anyone who has played me since knows that is no longer the case.  The only way you are going to deter me with an AA Gun is if Russia ONLY has her two fighters for offense left.  And if that’s the case, Russia’s probably lost anyway.

    And, for the record, I’d rather put an infantry in W. Russia and an Armor in Ukraine.  Make Russia pay heavily for both pieces of land.



  • Now for me the opposite is true… My Axis AA guns are fine to ignore if you want to run an SBR campaign against me.  I can;t hit a BOM with an AA to save my life.

    But send Fighters over my AA guns, and I will probably shoot down all of them (or maybe leave 1 to fly home as a warning).



  • this is what the aa bid is suppose to do . some psychological warfare.  :evil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I use that psychological tactic all the time. I didn’t know it had a name until now.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    @Jennifer:

    Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

    I have to agree 100% with Jen on this.  INF, 1 ARM is a FAR superior bid for Ukraine than 1 INF, 1 AA.

    And to add to her analysis above…
    1.  The AA Fires only once, so you roll the 2 ones only in round 1, then they are silent
    2.  The ARM will likely fire TWICE before it is killed, possibly more.
    3.  There will NOT be an AA gun to deter Germany using their FIGs and BOM for the counter-attack.

    Hey you, the one posting as Switch – who are you and what have you done to the REAL Switch?  I know for a FACT that the REAL Switch NEVER agrees with Jenn on anything!

    😉


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Switch and I are very alike when it comes to tactics. 😛  All I have to do is convert him for politics and he’ll be a better man! 🙂

    Anyway, AA Guns are not scary anymore.  If you put an AA in Ukraine, I’ll probably still attack it because the odds of success are not drastically different.  You have less then a 3% chance to shoot down both Russian planes and only a 17% chance to get one of them.  Meanwhile, I have good odds of taking Ukraine and getting an AA Gun to shoot at your planes, which means, you’ll have to use tanks or divert an extra plane from somewhere else.

    First few rounds, Germany cannot afford a mistake or bad dice.  Well, no one can in the first three rounds, but especially Germany and Japan.  IMHO, 90% or more of the games are decided by the dice in the first three rounds of play.


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