Not a bad G1 Fleet move…


  • 2007 AAR League

    So maybe it’s because I’ve been out of it for a while, but General D. Fox had me really stumped with his G1 move, which in fact is similar to something I’d been doing. The similarity is in moving the Med German fleet to Gibraltar, including the Atlantic sub, and also keeping the Luftwaffe in range of the Atlantic.

    However, he combined it with the purchase of an AC in the Baltic. This meant several things:

    • I could not attack the baltic fleet on UK1
    • He could use more of his Ftrs in the east, as they could now land on the AC so they could come from farther away and still engage in the Atlantic on G2

    With his position, I was essentially blocked from merging my fleet off Algeria because he had enough material in range to sink the entire allied navy, which would not be a good start.
    I also couldn’t simply build a fleet in the Channel, because both his fleets could hit it. Sure, the Baltic fleet could be kept out of combat with the Russian sub, but that big Med fleet (1 SS 1 TRN 1 BB, plus 6 or 7 air units, would easily kill the UK fleet.

    I’ve concluded that the best response was to build 1 AC 1 DD. I’ll have to use the Russian sub block, PLUS I’ll have to sac a US TRN off Algeria. That makes it a pretty even fight and reduces Germany to an Air-only attack on the UK fleet, which would be expensive.

    (So I thought I was doing okay, but then he got killer dice in Egypt - His 1 Inf 1 Arm killed my 3 inf and 1 Ftr, while I only killed one stinking Infantry. So now I’m down a Ftr and Germany has a tank in Egypt on G2…)

    So anyhow that’s how I’m responding. I’m curious if anyone has any better ideas.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I did almost that same move in my most recent game with Darth
    If you want to check it out I guess go ahead …
    I ended up winning the game but I also had some good dice 😐



  • Speaking of Darth, I think his common Allied open (Joint allied Fleet in SZ8) may be a viable option against a Channel Dash.



  • UK1- buys 1 battleship, 2 inf
    move your fleet into sz 8.

    Us 1- buys 2 bombers, 1 trn,
    land in london via sz 8,
    1 figs to london
    2 figs to canada

    UK2- attack the united sz7 for  one round. both will most likeluy lose 2 trns.
    retreat to sz8.

    US2-  send your fleet, and airforce to sz 7.
    this is a very risky battle and its most likely that no one will srrive. ( you can always retreat if you crippled the german navy)
    the us will knock himself back for a couple of trns recouvering but it is much better than being bullyied by the germans.


  • Moderator

    I like to buy 1 sub (or trn), 1 ftr, 1 dd and move fleet to sz 8.  With US I’ll buy 1 AC and 2 ftrs and move fleet to Sz 8 as well and reinforce UK.
    Then smash the unified fleet with a UK/US 1-2.  Typically UK can retreat with their BB and Bom (after 2 rds) and place new trns in sz 8 and begin landing troops in rd 3.
    US can finish off with 2 trns (only if needed), 2 dd, 5 ftrs, and 1 bom.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I looked at merging fleets in SZ8. The trouble was that if I left SZ7 free for the taking, the next turn I’d be facing a united german fleet of:

    2 TRN
    3 SS
    1 DD
    1 AC
    1 BB
    2 Ftrs

    Which would basically allow Germany to control the Atlantic, and force the Allies to spend a LOT of money on boats to take out the fleet before even being able to think about helping Russia.



  • A UK/USA 1-2 strike would still kill the German fleet… and leave both the Baltic and Med wide open to Allied advance…



  • @ncscswitch:

    A UK/USA 1-2 strike

    what does it mean


  • 2007 AAR League

    It means the UK hits the German fleet, weakens it, and then the US hits and hopefully finishes the job.

    A 1-2 strike is usually necessary to destroy a well-defended territory.

    In this case, I haven’t run the numbers - let’s see…

    The median outcome for the UK attack on UK2 is that the UK navy is wiped out and the Germans lose 2 TRN and 1 Sub

    That leaves 2 Fig, 2 Sub, 1 Des, 1 Car, 1 Bat. for the US to deal with. For that, it has 2 TRN, 2 DD, 3 Ftr 1 Bom that can be in range, and I guess the US could build 1 or 2 Bombers on US1 to prepare. I guess the US can do it with avg. 3 Bom 1 DD surviving. That’s with AVERAGE luck.

    So then the Allies have no navy at all, and neither do the Germans. Trouble is that the Allies can’t even get in the game without a navy, while Germany can be quite happy without one esp. if the Allies don’t have one and there’s still a healthy luftwaffe to force the Allies to build expensive escorts for their new transports.

    We’ll see how it plays out. Right now I’m more miffed about the loss of a UK fighter and the presence of a German tank in Egypt…



  • @Frood:

    It means the UK hits the German fleet, weakens it, and then the US hits and hopefully finishes the job.

    A 1-2 strike is usually necessary to destroy a well-defended territory.

    In this case, I haven’t run the numbers - let’s see…

    The median outcome for the UK attack on UK2 is that the UK navy is wiped out and the Germans lose 2 TRN and 1 Sub

    That leaves 2 Fig, 2 Sub, 1 Des, 1 Car, 1 Bat. for the US to deal with. For that, it has 2 TRN, 2 DD, 3 Ftr 1 Bom that can be in range, and I guess the US could build 1 or 2 Bombers on US1 to prepare. I guess the US can do it with avg. 3 Bom 1 DD surviving. That’s with AVERAGE luck.

    So then the Allies have no navy at all, and neither do the Germans. Trouble is that the Allies can’t even get in the game without a navy, while Germany can be quite happy without one esp. if the Allies don’t have one and there’s still a healthy luftwaffe to force the Allies to build expensive escorts for their new transports.

    We’ll see how it plays out. Right now I’m more miffed about the loss of a UK fighter and the presence of a German tank in Egypt…

    well it doesnt seem like a too good solution if you ask me, i simply dislike it


  • Moderator

    As long as UK buys 3 units to use on UK 1 they should do enough damage to G.
    You kinda have to buy a DD sice Ger has subs, so I like the 1 DD, 1 sub, 1 trn.  This allows UK to attack with:
    2 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb

    So you are looking at 4 hits to 5.

    Ger loses 2 trns, 1 sub in rd 1 and UK presses on with 1 dd, 2 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb vs. 2 subs, 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bb

    So, 3 hits to 4.

    UK retreats BB to sz 8 and places new trns there and can land in Nor on UK 3.

    US cleans up 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bb with 2 dd, 5 ftrs, 1 bom (if you bought 1 ac, 2 ftrs on US 1).  You can even bring in the 2 trns or go right to Alg or Nor or stand pat.

    Then benefit of letting them unite and then killing them is, not only do you kill both fleets in rd 2, but you also take down 2 G ftrs.

    With some UK moves in the Indian ocean you can still counter Egy on UK 1 and you have enough inf in the middle east to prevent Ger from blitzing around.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Hmm. Should have thought of that. Oh well, we’ll see how my dual picket thingy works. It should keep the German fleet divided and easier to kill w/ fewer losses.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    As long as UK buys 3 units to use on UK 1 they should do enough damage to G.
    You kinda have to buy a DD sice Ger has subs, so I like the 1 DD, 1 sub, 1 trn.  This allows UK to attack with:
    2 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb

    3 ftrs?

    where does the 3rd ftr come from?


  • Moderator

    The UK 1 buy - 1 sub, 1 dd, 1 ftr.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    As long as UK buys 3 units to use on UK 1 they should do enough damage to G.
    You kinda have to buy a DD sice Ger has subs, so I like the 1 DD, 1 sub, 1 trn.  This allows UK to attack with:
    2 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb

    I don’t see a ftr as part of your buy

    are you advocating 1 DD, 1 ftr, 1 trn/sub ?



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I like to buy 1 sub (or trn), 1 ftr, 1 dd and move fleet to sz 8.  With US I’ll buy 1 AC and 2 ftrs and move fleet to Sz 8 as well and reinforce UK.
    Then smash the unified fleet with a UK/US 1-2.  Typically UK can retreat with their BB and Bom (after 2 rds) and place new trns in sz 8 and begin landing troops in rd 3.
    US can finish off with 2 trns (only if needed), 2 dd, 5 ftrs, and 1 bom.

    Opps, there it is, early in the thread.  my bad.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I didn’t realize my G1 opening worried Dan so much he needed to start up a thread about what he should do.  I’m flattered.  😄 :mrgreen:


  • 2007 AAR League

    I hadn’t encountered it before, so I was really stumped. I think it’s a strong opening, that’s for sure.



  • @Frood:

    I hadn’t encountered it before, so I was really stumped. I think it’s a strong opening, that’s for sure.

    Didjoo land Russian fighters in Moscow at end of R1?


  • 2007 AAR League

    @newpaintbrush:

    @Frood:

    I hadn’t encountered it before, so I was really stumped. I think it’s a strong opening, that’s for sure.

    Didjoo land Russian fighters in Moscow at end of R1?

    Can’t recall - why? I think I usually land them in Caucasus though.



  • @Frood:

    @newpaintbrush:

    Didjoo land Russian fighters in Moscow at end of R1?

    Can’t recall - why? I think I usually land them in Caucasus though.

    . . . because landing 2 fighters in Moscow allows a different Allied response to G2 Sealion, of course.  ALSO becos I am gonna be in Moscow, and Russian women fighter pilots are hawt.

    @Frood:

    So maybe it’s because I’ve been out of it for a while, but General D. Fox had me really stumped with his G1 move, which in fact is similar to something I’d been doing. The similarity is in moving the Med German fleet to Gibraltar, including the Atlantic sub, and also keeping the Luftwaffe in range of the Atlantic.

    That is, Anglo-Egypt probably cannot be held past UK1.  Luftwaffe land in Western Europe (standard) or Norway (Norway variant).  I see in your game, most fighters landed at E. Europe.  Still, there is a significant invasion of London threat.

    However, he combined it with the purchase of an AC in the Baltic. This meant several things:

    • I could not attack the baltic fleet on UK1

    It also means that Germany has about five less units to push on Moscow early.

    • He could use more of his Ftrs in the east, as they could now land on the AC so they could come from farther away and still engage in the Atlantic on G2

    With his position, I was essentially blocked from merging my fleet off Algeria because he had enough material in range to sink the entire allied navy, which would not be a good start.

    Doesn’t mean anything if you can’t merge off Algeria early.  All you have to do is build and wait.  If Germany stays at Gibraltar, then Germany can’t get any grip on Africa, particularly after UK retakes Anglo-Egypt on UK1.  If Germany runs away from Gibraltar, then you dump units into Algeria with US and/or UK.

    I also couldn’t simply build a fleet in the Channel, because both his fleets could hit it. Sure, the Baltic fleet could be kept out of combat with the Russian sub, but that big Med fleet (1 SS 1 TRN 1 BB, plus 6 or 7 air units, would easily kill the UK fleet.

    Right, that’s why you don’t build a fleet in the Channel.

    I’ve concluded that the best response was to build 1 AC 1 DD. I’ll have to use the Russian sub block, PLUS I’ll have to sac a US TRN off Algeria. That makes it a pretty even fight and reduces Germany to an Air-only attack on the UK fleet, which would be expensive.

    To get infantry from Eastern US to Europe, it takes a chain of two transports; one transport to move units from E Canada to UK, one transport to move units from UK to Europe.  To get infantry from Eastern US to Africa, it takes only one transport; one transport to offload from E. Canada to Algeria.  HOWEVER, the African route is quite slow, so the US will probably want 6-8 transports in the Atlantic to have the ability to change to a transport-to-Europe scenario in any event.  In short - transporting US ground units is relatively inefficient.

    However, UK only needs one transport per load, due to the proximity of the UK sea zones to Europe and Africa.

    THEREFORE - if possible, you want to build the UK transports and ground units up as quickly as you can; that should be UK’s focus.  An AC and DD do not help that.

    Anyways, you don’t need to sac a US transport or even the Russian sub.  All you have to do is park northwest of UK, and keep the US fleet remote.  If you’re bound to go to Algeria on the second Allied turn, you can still produce 1-2 AC with US on US1, and unite the UK and US fleets off Algeria (assuming the Germans don’t move out into the Atlantic with the Baltic fleet - but if you build 1 AC 1 DD, that’s not particularly THREATENING to the Baltic fleet, so you can’t control the German Baltic fleet movement unless you buy 3 fighters).

    Long ass story short:  I recommend either building transports for northwest of UK and infantry for a stronger but later ground punch, or 3 fighters with UK to mess with the German fleet, but NOT AC/DD.

    (So I thought I was doing okay, but then he got killer dice in Egypt - His 1 Inf 1 Arm killed my 3 inf and 1 Ftr, while I only killed one stinking Infantry. So now I’m down a Ftr and Germany has a tank in Egypt on G2…)

    You can bring the UK bomber for insurance.  On G2, you defend with bomber and fighter in Africa against German fighter and bomber from Libya.  It doesn’t seem great on the face of it, but it is a moderately risky attack for the Germans.

    So anyhow that’s how I’m responding. I’m curious if anyone has any better ideas.

    Hawt Russian gymnast fighter pilots, yeah . . .


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I might have missed it, but:

    If Germany sets up as presented, and UK purchases only naval vessels as was suggested, how do you stop Sea Lion?

    Second point, if you are only buying naval vessels, why are you buying a transport???  Make it a submarine, use it as a casualty in the resulting battle.  At least it has offensive damage ability and you are most likely going to lose that ship anyway in the battle, IMHO.



  • The best thing to do is to keep the UK fleet remote as stated.  Then, with the US you need to buy an AC and probably two transports.  When the german fleet unites off the coast of WE you send all the UK boats 1 BB 3-4 transports and all the US boats 1 AC 2 ftrs 2 DD 4 transports.  With that you keep the german fleet out of the med, take africa and basically keep the fleet from doing much until the US gets enough transports and planes to take it out without much loss.



  • @Jennifer:

    I might have missed it, but:

    If Germany sets up as presented, and UK purchases only naval vessels as was suggested, how do you stop Sea Lion?

    Second point, if you are only buying naval vessels, why are you buying a transport???  Make it a submarine, use it as a casualty in the resulting battle.  At least it has offensive damage ability and you are most likely going to lose that ship anyway in the battle, IMHO.

    Two ways to stop SeaLion:

    Russian fighters from Moscow to London on R2.  Combined with UK build of 3 fighters and US moving 2-4 ground units in (the US sacrifices its transports), London has 1 bomber 4 inf 2 art 3 tanks 8 fighters.  You can vary by taste, building more UK ground and less UK air.

    Or, just 8 infantry with UK (saving IPCs because Germany will probably have Africa for a while).


  • 2007 AAR League

    I had foremost in my mind that I wanted to keep the fleet from merging, but maybe that’s not as important…


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