@pacifiersboard Italy is only restricted on who it can attack on the turn it declares war. (and Paris is not already in Axis hands)
The restriction is only that it can’t attack territories that have units on that first turn.
AAE Scenario: Europe 1939 (France, USA, Germany, Britain, USSR, Italy)
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Well, could we play the “normaol”/“original” rules.
That way theres no confusion. :-)the only thing I would like to add, is that the only country that can attake the pink terirories is the SU (Hitler-Stalin Nonagression Act) Even if Hitler did blitz his way into east poland, he would have had to back out due to the act.
He, hey Thrawn, that means that if you play as all the allies then you’ll technically have to invade your own terirori. :lol:
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that not a very normal way to spell that word. :wink: okay you can stay with you rules. i thought it was simple just let finland have the abilty to fight the ussr like it did. it would slow down a massive militry build up in moscow.
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Here are some of my suggestions at changing the setup when someone plays this scenerio next time.
1. Italy should have battleship no subs-There biggest contribution was there navy
2. Netherlands Belgium should have 2 Inf.-They had armies too
3. Maybe cut back Yougoslavia to 3 or 2inf. Germans had no problem occupying the country
4. Give the UK another destroyer or 2-Seems extremely weak. Maybe One off of Canada
5. Give US the start off like from the chart in AAE
6. Delayed entranced of Italy,Bulgaria,Rumania,Hungary,Finland-Italy should not join the axis until Poland,Netherlands-Belgium,And eastern France are conquered. The rest joins with free armies after Denmark,Yougoslavia, Greece, Crete, France, and Norway are conquered.
7.Surprise Attack For Axis attacks SU. All units defend on a 1 for the first combat move against them.
like Pacific first move -
News report. - mid to late april 1940.
Germany and Italy are at war with the queendom and the republic of france. On the western front the magiot line as been pulled back just east of Paris. trenchs have been dug at a last defence line aroung the Sine river and its tributaries. ot resembles the great war with massive german and french armies starring at each other, each too afraid to make a move. the italians control the port cities of Marseille and tolun with much of the southern sectors. the french airforce has been recently reduced to oblivion when after being postiton in algerra try to liberate the mederterrian from italian hands. Canada the the UK are slowly build up but lack naval domonice. If Paris fall will britian be able to liberate them. the Britsh are all ready digging in with a large force in egypt.( don’t they know trenchs don’t really work in the sand guess italy will have to give them an a** whopping) with out this vital oil transporation will be greatly reduced wit the italians staring greedily at them from libya.in thw east front everything is quiet and a slow build up is occuring but WHERE is america?
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News Report june 1940(ed 2)- Italy has called off the bombing of Paris to wipe out all defenders in Egypt. looks like the Churchill tanks will be tugged by horses into battle. italy is reigning supreme in the Medeterrian while Britain is slowly building they’re navy back up in the frigid ice caps but is still too weak to defeat Germany. no change in the western front except the German army is growing massively compared to the French snail. The Luffawatte bombers have mistaken Scottish sheep farms for London cities but both the RAF and the French air force have been lost due to failed counterattacks against the elite axis navies. all is quiet on the eastern front except there as been MIG-15’s spotted in the Zagaros Mountains. while they be trying to tear down Italian tank columns if advanced upon or are they a political message to say Stalin is preparing for war? either way Mussonlni who has remanimed himself Emperor Septembus( to symbolize the succeeding roman Empire) has threaten Stalin saying if they don’t back down italy won’t stop untill they reach moscow. Battleplans for a Massive pincer blitz from Germany and Italy are being Formed to bring Moscow under siege by EARLY fall. THIS IS THE FATE OF STALIN’s INFERIOR NATION IF HE Does NOT BACK OFF NOW!. It looks bleak for France and the UK. they need american aid now and quickly. will Rrussia remain neutral with rising tensions between the emperor-fuhor alliance and the premir? can they repulse any attack? all this told on the next edition of the world news.
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@ Admiral Thrawn: Those are some good ideas, but most of them won’t work for various reasons.
#1 - this seems good until you realize that the BB, with its powerful bombard, would make Italian invasions along the N African coast too easy. Moreover, Italian mini subs (and other Axis submersible weapons) were responsible for a great deal of damage to Allied shipping and even managed to cripple portions of the British fleet during the early parts of the war. Therefore subs it is.
#2 - Netherlands-Belgium used to have Armies in previous versions but aside from the fact that historically they were small potatoes and did almost nothing to halt the Axis steamroller during playtesting it was decided that any Allied presence in the Netherlands-Belgium would ahistorically halt the German advance into Western Europe, forcing the Axis to wait a turn longer for the fall of France than they could really afford to.
#3 - Although the Germans may not have had much difficulty occupying Yugoslavia, the Italians did. Moreover, Yugoslavia was a hotbed of Communist resistance during the war, and so the strong Allied presence in this territory is meant to reflect all that.
#4 - The British are quite strong in this game and need no such help.
#5 - What, really, is wrong with having the USA start off when France falls? For all we know, had Hitler not actually controlled most of continental Europe when the Japanese attacked, the USA might have concentrated first on the PTO instead of the ETO, as the ETO wouldn’t have looked all that grim.
#6 - This is an uneccesary rule and does not reflect the early actions of Italy in the war.
#7 - This rule may yet be implemented if the USSR proves to be too powerful yet. Otherwise it would be best to avoid using this rule in order to keep the rules simple and prevent an ahistorical single infantry meatshield across the entire Soviet border. Granted this can still happen without the rule, but this rule would only aggravate the situation.
@Gewehr: Although it is true that it is ahistorical to allow Axis to occupy pink territories, it is allowed in this game in order to both simplify the rules and provide for yet another potential historical deviation - what if Hitler’s armies, more confident of their blitzkrieg tactics, rolled all the way to the Soviet border, not allowing Stalin to make good on his side of the treaty? Certainly it is possible that Stalin, both amazed at the ability of the Nazi war machine and anxious to avoid war before his own military was properly mobilized, might have backed down and allowed Hitler to take all that he had conquered? After all, this was the precedent set by other national leaders - to back down and hope that this was the last demand of Hitler.
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I disagree with some of your points. The axis minor powers should have a delayed entranced to reflect history. If not you mine as well have America in the war right away too. Italy did not join with the Germans until it was clear Germany was going to defeat everyone else. He only joined the fight at the very end of the Battle of France.
#5 you misunderstood me. I meant the USA you start with some units like AAE chart has them having or maybe a little less. Yougoslavia did not have a more poweful army than the US.
In my experience the UK fleet can mostly be destroyed Axis turn 1 and very hard to rebuild with uboats on the convoys. Germany at no point could come close to the UK’s navy.
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Hopefully, someone else can jump in here without being executed on the spot. First, some general comments on the idea of the scenario, and then some responses to comment made.
The scenario idea is pretty close to one that I am working up to include Italy in the European game, but I am assuming the Fall of France has occured and Italy is then in the war. However, I am going to allow the Italian player to change sides if he/she can be persuaded to by the Allies, and also have both an Axis Italian player and an Allied Italian player, as actually occured. I figure that the difference in color between the Japanese units in A&A Pacific and the new A&A game will make that possible. I am going to increase the British Navy a fair bit, like two more battleships, two carriers with one fighter each, probably 3 destroyers, and two subs, with some of the ships in the Mediterranean. The US and SU will not be in to start with, but the US will be supporting UK with its convoy IPCs as a minimum, and also a really modified form of Lend-Lease that more accurately represents the program. If German subs interdict the US convoys, the US is in the war. Once the US is in the war, its IPC count doubles. The Italians get a battleship, a couple of destroyers, and probably two subs, and 2 or 3 transports, as units will need to be transported to Africa. Germany will get a battleship on turn 2 or 3 as a bonus unit. The US gets a bigger Atlantic Fleet. Iceland is occupied by Britain, and the troops there defend at 3.
I am not worried about the Italian battleship doing excessive damage as I use a different rule for ships and shore bombardment that the game rules. Basically, no infantry can be killed by naval bombardment, but the naval guns can support an infantry attack like artillery, without the independent roll. The same thing applies to aircraft. They cannot kill infantry, but only support ground unit attacks. Naval bombardment and aircraft can kill tank and artillery units. This more accurately represents what happened. I am still working on all of the other changes I plan on making.
Now, some responses to comments made here.
1. Not sure where Eschaton gets the idea that the Italians attacked Yugoslavia. They took over Albania in the spring of 1939, and attacked Greece in the fall of 1940. The UK diverted some of its very small Mid East assets to help the Greeks. The Italians never attacked Yugoslavia. The Germans had an easy time due to dissension within Yugoslavia between the Croats and the Serbs, one reason why they still hate each other.
2. With respect to fighters and the Stuka. I agree that it is weird for the Germans to use a Stuka as their fighter. The Bf109 and the Messerschmidt 109 are the same aircraft. The only other option for the Germans would be the Focke-Wulf 190. For the US, if you want a good ground support fighter, use either the P-47 Thunderbolt, or the P-51. For the British, use the Spitfire, as that also was used as a naval fighter. For the Russians, use the Yak 3 or Yak 9, as they already do. The Japanese already are using the Zeke.
3. As for the UK already being powerful enough, with 10 subs, the German player should be able to continue to control the convoy routes for quite a while, especially if the SU is not in the game yet. Without the convoy supplies, Britain is in severe straits. The Royal Air Force is also pretty small in the normal game rules.
4. Considering that Corsica is part of France, and Sardinia is part of Italy, I would hope that they would be considered as two separate islands. Sardinia was a major Italian airbase and naval base facility. Aircraft from there figured prominently in the Malta convoy battles.
5. In all of the Axis and Allies games, the US is severely unpowered economically. This is done mainly for game balance, as otherwise, in any kind of a long game, the Axis get smashed. Since I will be using this as a teaching device, I am less worried about game balance, and more concerned about historical accuracy. I want the Axis to be smashed if the Allies cooperate and play well.
If it is okay with Eschaton, I will copy his rules and see how they work. If there is sufficient interest, I will post my modification on the forum as well.
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WIth all this talk of history…I must add…its hard to be historical.
AAE shouldn’t be using the straight AA rules to begin with. AAE territories are smaller.If having the right forces is important to me I would alter the income/construction or the unit movement.
Say make units costs more (to make each turn represent less time) or blend combat cycle with unit movement points.As for giving Italy Battleship is too unbalancing for amphibious assault on Africa,
a simple house rule will fix that. Battleship no longer destroy units, they give +1 to infantry 1-to-1 like artillery. -
bitian and france are at war with germany.
Paris falls: Italy enters the war and 1 british destroyer is placed in the us convoy section.
Britian FAlls ussr enters the war( ussr defend on a -1 for all units before it enters the war)
us enters the war when 2 capitals are attacked.( note don’t have to be taken. this is because the us entered around the same time as the battle of Moscow) -
Realistic alternate reality games are cool.
You gotta have a good victory condition system with it though.
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Italy would have historically had a very easier time taking the med but it was only for the british attack on toronto which sank a large portion of their surface fleet. ironically it was this attack which inspired the japanese (namely yamomoto) to try pearl harbor raid. In order to reflect mini sub options, my friends and I have it as a tech, whereas a country may use an infantry once per turn to try and sink enemy ship adjacent to where the infantry. On a roll of 1, the ship is hit. We have had some modifications to the rule, such as in pacific, its only if the ship is in a port zone, or if the attacker gets to choose the casualty etc. but its a good way to refect the mini-sub option.
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First let me preface all of this by saying that your comments have led me to offer a modified variant of the scenario which I will present below.
@ Admiral Thrawn: On the point of whether or not Italy should join at a set date, I must maintain that I think this is a bad idea. Italy was in the war before the USA was, and I believe that it would be too hard for me to get the gameplay mechanics right if Italy just sat around until France fell. As it is, a good Italian player might not attack his or her first turn anyway, building up forces for a more powerful strike in Africa. At the end of considerations, I have decided to leave Italy as is.
And while it is true, as you pointed out, that the USA had a larger army than Yugoslavia, I don’t believe it was really mobilized for war at the time, and therefore America’s start from scratch (aside from a lack of naval forces) I find to be generally close enough to the reality of the situation. Moreoever, it just helps the scenario play better.
@ timerover51: After giving myself a good history lesson, I learned that you are right about Yugoslavia. In the new version of my scenario, however, I am still giving Yugoslavia 2 infantry to reflect the Communist resistance under Tito as best I can without adding complicated resistance rules. Greece and Poland are defended differently, as well.
As for the issue of the UK’s power, I have found through playing the game that the initial German dominance of the Atlantic is momentary and limited in its effect, especially once the USA gets in the game. In all reality, I might yet increase the size of the German navy or shift things around. For now, however, everything appears balanced to me. If you disagree, I suggest you play the scenario according to the rules given here. I think you will decide differently in the end. Realistically, I think that if there is any unbalance in this scenario, it rests in favor of the Allies. The idea of the Axis actually taking Moscow, much less Britain or the USA, seems very difficult at best, especially when considering Lend-lease and several other allied options that I have delineated earlier in this thread.
OK, now here are the tweaked rules - feel free to contrast and compare with the original on the first page:
Axis & Allies Europe: 1939
VICTORY CONDITIONS: Control two enemy capitals (capitals are comprised of Moscow, Germany, Northern Italy, United Kingdom and United States) for one turn.
There are 5 playing nations: Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom (and minor allied and neutral countries), France/United States. Italy is played using Japanese pieces from one of the other game boards, and France/United States uses United States pieces.
Turn Order: Germany, Soviet Union, Italy, the United Kingdom, and France/United States.
SPECIAL RULES:
Additional IPCs on Turn 1: Germany starts with 12 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
Italy starts with an extra 6 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
UK and France start with an extra 10 IPCs to spend between the two of them.
NEW UNITS MAY ONLY BE PLACED IN THEIR PLAYER’S INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX OR ADJACENT SEA SQUARE. THIS NEGATES THE PACT OF STEEL RULE.Soviet Union:
The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.
Soviet convoy does not become active until Germany or Italy attacks the USSR.
The Soviet Union may only use half of their income, rounding up, until Italy or Germany initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union may invade any of the pink territories not owned by the Axis and gain plunder from them as Germany would. Note: once one side has gained plunder from a territory, no other country may gain plunder from that same territory.
France/United States:
U.S. convoys become active when the USA enters the war (i.e. France falls).
Maginot Line: French infantry in Eastern France or Vichy France defend on a 3 if attacked from Germany or Northern Italy, respectively.
The two British Convoys valued at 3 IPCs are French; if France falls they become British. If they have been occupied by Axis naval units, they will still need to be reoccupied by Allied powers.
Mid-East:
The total IPC value of the yellow Mid-East territories is counted to the end of each round. This money is divided between the French and British immediately for use on their next turn (in a fashion similar to British convoys in A&A Pacific).
The Industrial Complex in Egypt may only deploy 1 British unit per turn.
Vichy France:
If France falls to the Axis, French IPCs are claimed by the conquering player and any French land or air units in Vichy France or North Africa immediately become German (they may not move until the following turn). Any remaining French land or air units in Allied territories become British. French naval units are scuttled (removed from play). The French convoys become British (if under Axis control at the time, they must be liberated first). From this point forward the French player is now the United States; nothing special happens if France is liberated.
Plunder:
If the Axis conquer any of the minor allied powers or neutral British-occupied territories (all of which are originally under the jurisdiction of the British player), that Axis country immediately gains “plunder” from the bank equal to twice the IPC value of the territory conquered to spend on their following turn (territories with no IPC value yield a plunder of 1). This only works the first time a territory of this nature is conquered.
Pact of Steel:
Axis powers can deploy units using each other’s Industrial Complexes.
Lend-Lease:
Allied units in Red territories can be absorbed by the Soviet Union during the Soviet’s purchase phase.
Other Rules:
Strategic Bombing raids can only destroy up to the IPC value of the territory in which they are conducting the raid.
Fighters cost 10, Carriers 16. Tanks defend on a 3.
Destroyers can bombard.
The United States gets an industrial complex. No new ones can be built.
Allied units may not enter Soviet territory until the Axis initiates hostilities against the Soviets.
If France falls, all Mid-East IPCs go to the UK by default. They may not be given to the United States.
The British marker is used on the side of the IPC chart to keep track of Mid-East territories.
UNIT PLACEMENT
GERMANY: 13 IPCs
Germany: 8 infantry, 4 tanks, 2 artillery, 2 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Austria: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery.
Czechoslovakia: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter.
Hungary: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter.
Finland: 2 infantry.
Baltic Sea: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer.
Danish Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.
Denmark Strait: 2 subs.
Barents Sea: 2 subs.
Mid-Atlantic: 2 subs.
South Atlantic: 2 subs.
Iraq: 1 infantry.SOVIET UNION: 18 IPCs
Moscow: 1 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Leningrad: 1 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Stalingrad: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Archangel: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Siberia: 1 infantry, 1 tank.
Turkestan: 1 infantry.
Caucasus: 1 infantry.
Ukraine SSR: 1 infantry.
Belorussia: 1 infantry.
Russia: 1 infantry.
Karelia: 1 infantry.
White Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.ITALY: 9 IPCs
Northern Italy: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Southern Italy: 2 infantry, 1 tank.
Libya: 2 infantry.
Sicily: 1 fighter.
Rumania: 2 infantry.
Bulgaria: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Central Mediterranean: 1 sub, 1 battleship.
Tyrrhenian Sea: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Sardinia unoccupied).UNITED KINGDOM: 19 IPCs
United Kingdom: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Canada: 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex.
Malta: 1 fighter.
Atlantic: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
Celtic Sea: 1 transport.
English Channel: 1 destroyer.
North Sea: 1 sub.
Davis Straight: 1 transport.
Straight of Gibraltar: 1 battleship.
Eastern Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 2 transports.
(Gibraltar and Iceland unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 5 IPCs).
Mid-East: (see special rules for Mid-East income).
Egypt: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex* (see special rules)
Trans-Jordan: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
(Syria, Iran, and Palestine unoccupied)
Neutral and Minor Allies: (do not contribute to UK income)
Poland: 4 infantry, 1 artillery.
East Poland: 1 infantry.
Yugoslavia: 2 infantry.
Greece: 3 infantry, 1 artillery.
Crete: 1 infantry.
Denmark: 1 infantry.
Norway: 1 infantry.
(Baltic States, Vyborg, and Bessarabia unoccupied).FRANCE: 17 IPCs
France: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Eastern France: 1 Tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery.
Vichy France: 2 infantry.
Tunisia: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Morocco: 1 infantry.
Bay of Biscay: 1 transport, 1 sub.
Western Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Corsica, Netherlands-Belgium, and Algeria are unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 3 IPCs). -
I like the Industrial Center in Egypt, as that basically simulates the gradual build up of British troops via convoys around Africa. I will be working on a scenario assuming that France has fallen and the US and USSR are still neutral, but with enough irritants between the US and Germany that Germany will eventually attack the US.
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I have played a version where any land units in the US cost -1 to build and naval and air units -2. This better reflects the massive quanitites of material the US created and places more emphasis to build and transport units, making the war in the mid-atlantic that much more vital.
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Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.
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We have a problem with rules and I want to hear what other people think. I’ll set it up. Me as the Soviet Union has a sub in the South Atlantic and and Transport in the Azores sea. The British have a Destroyer,sub,and transport in the Central Atlantic. It is Italy’s turn and he has 1Destroyer,1sub,and 4transports in the strait of Gibraltar. The SU and the Axis are not at war. In this scenerios rules it says and I quote:“The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.” Thats all it says about how the SU becomes at war with the Axis. Can the Itialians move there fleet through the Russian fleet to get to the british without declaring war on the SU? I say no. When in A&A is it not “initiating hostilites” to put your war ships into the same sea zone as the opponent?
This how I responded to the German players claim that the Italians could move through the Russians to get to the British.
I can kinda of see where you are coming from but putting naval units in the same sea zone as mine seems to be starting hostilites. Let me put it this way. I as the Soviet Union would consider it an act of war if you bring your naval vessels anywhere near mine. I.E. in the same sea zone.
So what does everyone else think? Do you think I am right or wrong?
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Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.
You’ll fall soon enough, all apart of my plan :wink: :evil:
As for the soviet fleet, your actualy the one making hostilities against the Axis by blokaading the med.
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Me blockading the med. is no different then me putting troops into the middleast. It is the best interest of the Soviet People to contain the Axis.
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