Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yes but its impossible to separate the two. One could not exist w/o the other unless the depression didn’t occur allowing the Nazis to get voted in.

    If Hitler just put his racial policies on hold until after the war the resources would have made the difference. Ukraine and the Baltic states would have fought and died for Hitler in battle rather than by Einzatsgruppen and the Reichenau order.

    It would have been easier to just tell france to ‘take one for the team’ in ww1 and just let the Kaiser win.
    Then the EU dominated by Germany anyway would have started 70 years earlier and let many people live.

    And Hitler would still be painting watercolors-



  • If Russia was the only declared enemy of Germany, then I think I would give Germany 50% or more, but several things had
    to be done very different.
    What would be most important I’m not sure, but Hitler had to stay out of all military issues, except giving the order
    to start operation Barbarossa.
    With Germany preparing from 1935, and Russia not so prepared to “outside” enemies as should be, then I think
    Germany would actually pull this off. What would then happen? Would Germany hold Moscow for more than a few months?
    And other cities? How long could Germany hold big cities and take control over the resources that Russia had?
    It would be resistance and guerrilla in Siberia. Jap would lose to US no matter what. How bout China and US
    politics and strats in mainland Asia?? I think it’s very hard to say what would happen in the long run.



  • Yes, I think you can separate the two. This is talking about alternate history and if after the depression a different politacal party took control that wanted revenge for WWI took control but didn’t want to kill people just because of race. I don’t see that as out of the realm of possibility. Like the Germans in WWI who wanted world domination but, didn’t kill jews or homosexuals for no reason except that they are different. In concern of how the Germans would control Russia, it could have happened more like WWI. With Russia collasping on it’s self because people rebelling against Stalin and is evil ways. The man was just as bad as Hitler except he got to rule even longer than him so got to kill more. Than the Ukraine and the Baltics would separate like they do in the after the Cold War. They would be come protectorates of Germany and would probably join the Axis Powers to protect themselves from Russia in the future. Germany would just leave the rest of Russia alone after it was already broken and too large to completely control.

    What some people don’t know is that at the end WWI was much closer at the end than WWII. It was very possible for the Central Powers in 1918 during the Spring Offensive to have beaten France and Britian. With Russia already knocked out of the war Germany would be unchalleged on the continent.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yes but their was no other person like Hitler in Germany. Hitler was obviously the top dog of the Nazis and the only alternative was either Communist or another Wiemar crackpot with nothing of any substantive agenda but to get unemployment under control. Their was nobody who preached “they stabbed us in the back mentality” except the Nazis.

    Of course if Hitler was dispatched early in 1939, Goering would be the new leader ( it was already the decree in that event)

    Goering would have been worse than Hitler.

    If Goering was gone then… their is a real chance for something different. Most likely Admiral Raeder or Donetz or even Manstein may have been the leader and a real chance to win was available.

    so it would take bumping off the top 2 Nazis to accomplish your idea



  • Strange how other strong leaders and intelligent strategists didn’t have the virtue to do what had to be done…
    Except near the end, the war already was lost, the plot that Rommel supported.
    To save the “system” the Reich, their home country etc, they followed the top dog rather than to care for the whole of
    the “wolf” pack as they should do.
    Many, many years since I was in the Army, but one of the many good  things I learned from officers is that a patrol, a group of
    soldiers is never stronger than the weakest point.
    Some stories tell of Hitler as kind of “magic” charisma and “above man”, almost god-like.

    Strong scene in the movie “The Boys from Brazil”.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077269/

    The scene in the end of the movie, where the young Hitler controls the dobermans as they were his own arms and legs  :evil:



  • Just to add my 2cents in, the way I have always thought of it is if  Hittler was alittle nicer to the people, he might have gone alot farther. Not killing off civilians in E Europe, France, ect, not putting all those people into the camps. The Millions of men, woman, and children who died could’ve been millions of soilders, workers, and Hittler youth to fuel the nazi war machine, the whole thing of using stalin as a horible, vissous ,communsit dictator to win the peoples hearts and hatred could’ve been acomplished but NOOOOO, the darn SS had to march in and start killing off Soviet civilians and such……stupid nazis and their dedication to the fuher  :roll:


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Gewehr:

    Just to add my 2cents in, the way I have always thought of it is if  Hittler was alittle nicer to the people, he might have gone alot farther. Not killing off civilians in E Europe, France, ect, not putting all those people into the camps.

    Are you seriously complaining about Hitler killing the French?! 😮 😉



  • @Imperious:

    Their was nobody who preached “they stabbed us in the back mentality” except the Nazis.

    Hmm…who does that sound like these days?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Hmm…who does that sound like these days?

    that would be a political discussion and we cant have that. :mrgreen:



  • Yes
    Had it not been led by Adolf -who needs any notion of military operations when you can also go about it as a lunatic- Hitler.

    but then again, would there have been a Nazi Germany?



  • @Imperious:

    Hmm…who does that sound like these days?

    that would be a political discussion and we cant have that. :mrgreen:

    In this very thread we seem to be having a political discussion about Germany and the USSR.  😄


  • 2019 Moderator

    Ah, but it’s Historical politics, that’s ok, dude. 😄



  • @dezrtfish:

    Ah, but it’s Historical politics, that’s ok, dude. 😄

    I know, dude.  Just pointing it out.  😉



  • In my opinion, Germany actually had a chance to win the war (against all Allies) had they not made some crucial mistakes. Of course, the Allies made even more mistakes than the Germans, so you could look at this both ways.

    First off, Germany’s first BIG mistake was allowing the Allies to retreat from Dunkirk. The French were already beat. If the Germans would have used their ground forces to cut off the English and French troops at Dunkirk instead of just using the Luftwaffe, moral would have been completely wiped away. Instead, the Allies saw this evacuation as a victory and that gave their people hope. To compound the problem, the same soldier who evacuated at Dunkirk ended up forcing the Germans to allocate more resources to Africa and eventually those same soldiers invaded Normandy. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable to think England may have surrendured had they suffered a catastrophe at Dunkirk.

    Second, the Germans had no business helping Italy in the Balkans or in Africa. Those resources should have been directed towards Russia.

    Third, if Barborossa had been launched earlier as planned, Russia would have collapsed. The Red Army crumbled when Germany advanved. The only problem was that the Germans couldn’t capitalize on their efforts because of the bad weather. With the extra weeks available from an earlier invasion date, the Germans could have continued encircling massive pockets of Russians. Moscow would have been reached. Once the capital was captured and Stalin fleed, Russia would have collapsed just as it did in WW1. In this case, no Stalingrad, no Kursk.

    Of course, if things did go bad (as they did in history), Hitler should have never intervened in the operations of the war. Erich von Manstien and other brilliant planners were more than capable of conducting the war.

    So…?

    Lastly, I wanted to note the Nazi ideology. Many people on here think had they “liberated” Russia instead of “conquered” Russia, more Ukrainians and Soviets would have helped. Well, the German war machine was made possible by de-humanizing their enemies. The German army was the best trained in the world and they thought they were figthing to save their master race. The believed this so much, that they were also the most motivated soldier in the army.

    I don’t want to sound like Im supporting their ideology, but it surely helped their military (and doomed their country).

    By the way… when playing Axis and Allies, am I the only one that likes to pretend they are actually conducting the real war?  😄

    One game with my roommate, I baited him to send his armor into Caucus because it was lightly defended. He took it but my counterattack was vicious and he lost all his armor and I told him, “dont worry, that happened to Paulus too!”



  • Read an interesting theory today that actually seems plausible: that Heydrich’s espionage network planted forged documents that made there way up to Stalin about an attempted joint coup against Stalin between the Red Army leaders and the Nazi. The significance is that the Germans, knowing Stalin’s paranoia, were responsible for Stalin’s purges that crippled Red Army leadership on the eve of war.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    That would be right up Heydrichs sleeve. That man was a walking brain constantly thinking of such subterfuge. He pulled off the hoax that staged the invasion of Poland, and involved with many projects as Himmler’s right hand man.



  • A walking evil brain.

    But for everyone who thinks that Germany would have defeated a ‘lone Russia’ I would have to disagree. By the time of the Battle of Stalingrad, the turning point of the European theater, Russia was facing over 200 German divisions while the Anglo-Americans were only facing 6-7, includine ONE light panzer division under Rommel in North Africa. The fact that the Russians won the Battle of Stalingrad and turned the tide suggests that Germany would have been ultimately unsuccessful in a strictly German vs. Russia war. Lets face it, Russia has not been successfully invaded since the Mongols (actually not Russia at the time) because its just too big in geography and population.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Germans beat them in world war one. They did it two ways: first by sending the communist agitator Lenin on a train to Russia to destroy the Imperial aristocracy and second by military victories further sending the Czars position into a weakened  state.



  • After Stalingrad, the Russian tanks were more sophsticated than the German tanks and outnumbered them over 4:1, as well as over 2:1 manpower. That is shear overwhelming power - not to mention behind the sophisticated German panzer units, their army was still relying on quite primitive military elements like cavalry.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yea AFTER Stalingrad…. nobody will debate that any hope remained AFTER Stalingrad. However in August 41 anything was possible


  • '11

    It’s interesting to think of how advanced and mechanized the German Wehrmacht was at the time of WWII, especially with their Blitzkrieg campaigns and yet they still relied on hundreds of thousands of horses for the supply lines in all campaigns of the war.


  • 2019 Moderator

    You use what you’ve got, I believe I read that the US had more trucks than any other nation, but it was easier for us to build and ship trucks than breed, feed and transport horses.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The issue of mechanization in the whermacht was not a reason for its failure because the winter campaigns of 41 and 42 caused major problems for trucks as the oil froze up and transports broke down. Horse was a good way to over come some of these issues. German logistical capabilities were very good probably second after USA and definatly better than the Soviets. However, not going to total war economy was a key issue for German failure but not an influence that could not be compensated by other means such as military doctrine and organizational advantages that Germany had.


  • '11

    Oh, I’m not arguing the mechanization issue. If Germany had gone into a total war economy and war production, then they probably could have matched Russia better at least in the tank and artillery department, not the man power. Germany just didn’t prepare as well as they should have for the invasion of Russia. If they had, then they probably would have had a variety of vehicles that could handle the perpetual cold, along with more winter weather gear for the troops.



  • “yea AFTER Stalingrad…. nobody will debate that any hope remained AFTER Stalingrad. However in August 41 anything was possible”

    I understand that, but the question is about Germany vs. Soviet Union. The fact remains that the VAST majority of the German divisions were fighting the Soviet Union and the battle of Stalingrad and the German decline after their defeat suggests that they would have lost the war against the Russians even if the Americans and British had nto been involved. Remember that the Germans were on the run long before D-Day, and that the Anglo-American front was seemingly only opened eventually when the British and Americans feared Soviet hegemony over Germany. On the other hand, there is something to be said about the salience of American Lend-Lease Aid.


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