German Norway



  • In the games I have played, the Allies either attack Africa on turn one or attack Norway by turn two (depending on German AC build).

    So my question is: Is there a safe way to keep Norway for more than one or two turns? It starts with 3 inf, and you can transport at least two more over… you could even blitz a tank through (if Karelia is unoccupied) to Norway. However, if you spend too mucn resources on keeping Norway, then you become too weak to counterattack against the Russian.

    Is there a way to keep Norway? Or is it doomed to fall?

    In World War II, France was retaken before Norway. I think German troops were still in Norway when Berlin fell (correct me if Im wrong). This hasnt happened in any of the games Ive played so far (not even close).



  • I am Norwegian, and I can assure you that Festnung Norwegen was the last German garrison to surrender. Some historicans even belive that the top-nazies was planning to keep fighting from Norway after Germany fell.

    In A&A Norway is just a plain territory, in real world Norway is impassable mountains, and in 1940 it was no roads or railways between north and south Norway, all traffic was by ship. The allies was not able to cross the Alps from Italy and into Germany neither, because of the mountains. It is a fact that mountains favour the defender, but this is not reflected in A&A games. To add to that, the Germans even fortified the Norwegian coast. Today I can look at the local beach, and see german blockhouses, they are still here, too strong to demolition. An allied invasjon of Norway would look like the Gallipoli landings in WW I, the allied would be slaughtered.

    If Larry will add mountain terrain and blockhouses to A&A Revised game, and restrict UK/US from making a pipeline cross Sovjet territory, then the game may look like real world. But that will never happen. Playability before historical correctness.



  • The Polar Express

    Norway is mountains and Finland is marshes. Karelia too is marshes. Western Canada is mountains, and Eastern Canada is marshes. Sovjet territories east of Moscow are mountains and marshes.  But the A&A units can move very fast in this impassable territories. Europe is plain with many roads and railways, but the A&A units need a long time to travel in this urban area. Look at a real map. From France to Moscow is a short way, and easy to go. From Japan to Moscow is a travel around the world in impassable mountains and marshes. But the Polar Express give the Japs an easy tank-route, thanks to playability before correctness.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I think you need to get off your soapbox there, Aldertag.  And for the record, not ALL of Western Canada is mountainous.  Manitoba and Saskatchewan (GO RIDERS!) are all very much prairies.  Parts of Alberta are prairies as well.  Most of the mountains start at the Alberta/BC border.  Just so ya know for next time…



  • So I guess what that all means is that Norway is doomed to fall ?        😄


  • 2007 AAR League

    @mjkusn01:

    So I guess what that all means is that Norway is doomed to fall ?        😄

    Yep, pretty much.  You’re better off making up that income in Africa or, better yet, Russia!  😄


  • 2007 AAR League

    @mjkusn01:

    In the games I have played, the Allies either attack Africa on turn one or attack Norway by turn two (depending on German AC build).

    So my question is: Is there a safe way to keep Norway for more than one or two turns? It starts with 3 inf, and you can transport at least two more over… you could even blitz a tank through (if Karelia is unoccupied) to Norway. However, if you spend too mucn resources on keeping Norway, then you become too weak to counterattack against the Russian.

    Is there a way to keep Norway? Or is it doomed to fall?

    In World War II, France was retaken before Norway. I think German troops were still in Norway when Berlin fell (correct me if Im wrong). This hasnt happened in any of the games Ive played so far (not even close).

    Stepping away from the discussions about playability vs real world…

    Follow the CSUB Baltic Fleet paper recommendations and build 2 or 3 transports in the Baltic on G1.
    (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/)
    Then gather all otherwise unassigned ground forces into Eastern Europe.  Norway, Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine have now all become a Dead Zone for the stack of forces you are using to face the Russians.  Additionally Germany no longer needs to be garrisoned because your Baltic fleet (with 1 DD and 2 SS) is not an easy push over for the Allies anymore and you will get to see that fleet coming one turn before it comes in.  Additionally those Transports now put your G2 infantry build in Karelia on G3, shortening your invasion pipeline to Moscow by one turn.  If you have a pipeline that is 5 to 8 infantry units per turn (Infantry Push Mechanic), by G3, the Transports are “paid for” in terms of a faster pipeline and a larger deadzone.  Add in the “gotcha” threat of 4 transports pulling an Operation Sea Lion and you have a decent way to keep the Allied player honest.  The UK player now has to keep 8 ground units plus air cover in the UK to prevent SeaLion from ruining his day.

    You should still put enough ground units in WEU to allow the FTRs you are going to base there make the Allies pay dearly for D-Day.  BTW, the FTRs in WEU in conjunction with a fleet in CMD or WMD make the African Landings a lot more difficult for the Allies.  Those WEU FTRs can also hit all the land areas adjacent to the Baltic and still return to WEU.

    So, the “Atlantic Wall” is:

    Norway

    • 1 Inf

    Baltic Fleet

    • 1 DD, 2 SS and 3-4 Transports
      Check the CSUB paper and see the logic on this.  It is not aimed at invading England but at making sure the UK/US airforce pays dearly for any attempt to sink the Baltic Fleet.  A CV is also effective but it does not add the benefit of extending the Dead Zone by virtue of transports.  If the Allies are building up a force that can threaten the Baltic Fleet, contemplate adding a CV.  For 16 IPC you can base two FTRs and now the threat of Sea Lion really gets ugly while all you are doing is making sure you can keep Karelia in your Victory City count.  You may find yourself “trading” Norway/Karelia but with a little planning you can make this a very expensive proposition for the Allies.  A sortie of subs into the invasion fleet can change the economics of the situation pretty rapidly.  There are players who don’t keep the Baltic Fleet strong enough as time goes by, accepting that eventually it will be sunk.  Personally, I think it should be kept strong enough to defend itself successfully.  By default this tends to mean that it will also keep the Allies focused on defending London and the “shuck-shuck” convoys will not have an easy trip.

    WEU

    • An infantry unit in WEU for every ground unit the allies can transport into it (ie, every transport that can hit WEU -> add 2 inf)
    • Half of the Luftwaffe fighters, this should be at least three fighters.
    • An AA gun

    Med Fleet.

    • 1 BB, 1 SS and 1 Transport is what you have available to begin with.  Keeping them alive and using them to fend off the British at the Suez, the Americans at the Straits of Gibraltar and still putting enough ground units into Africa to earn those IPC is the challenge but that is beyond the scope of how to keep Norway…

    There are, of course, counters to all of this but they require different builds and tactics than the typical “shuck-shuck beat Germany to death with Allied units landing in Norway/Karelia” game.  Different builds and tactics open up more options for victory.

    The most obvious counter is a more agressive Russian player but that then makes it easier for Japan since IPCs being sent to Berlin are not standing between Japanese forces and Moscow…



  • WEll what if he just kills his UK air and kills your transports.

    He has 10 attack vs your 7 defence so you will most likely survive with just a destroyer and 2 trannies not much to make norway a deadzone and 4 inf a turn to karelia aint that powerfull either.

    IF you dont rebuild that fleet the T2 us air can kill your fleet and there goes your 24ipcs worth of naval assets. while the russians have a far easier deal and can even threathen your EEU stack with a force in belo or ukraine.

    It deprives the UK of some much needed airforce but it also deprives gemany of much needed land units to defend against russia.



  • If I can kill UK’s air AND still ahve fleet units that I can then use as fodder for a Luftwaffe attack on the UK’s fleet I am happy.

    But even if he keeps his fleet out of range, I still get to drop 4 land units into Norway backed up by up to 6 FIG, 1 BOM.  Have fun with the repeated assaults there UK.  It will cost you everythign you make to keep trying, and it will cost Germany only $12 a turn.  That leaves me $28 to handle Russia, plus the Japan forces coming in form the back.

    Sea Lion in general is a SCARE, not a real threat (unless the Allies make mistakes, or ignore the risk…)



  • After turn 2 you wont have a fleet because of the US airfleet taking it down.
    That is the point the UK and US together can take that fleet down turn 2 or 3 latest.

    3 trans is just a bit to weak to survive,



  • NO allied air forces as of Turn 2? (except 2 Russian FIGs?).  I like it as Germany.

    I also like that the US will not be doing  Pearl Counter as Japan, since they have to send their AF to UK on US1, or if they do counter they will do so underpowered and lose their other AF and PACFLT.



  • @ncscswitch:

    PACFLT

    what does it stands for



  • PACFLT is a modern Department of Defense acronym for PACific FLeeT



  • @ncscswitch:

    PACFLT is a modern Department of Defense acronym for PACific FLeeT

    I think Pan-Atlantic Conference Flight Leadership and Tactics makes so much more sense.


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