• How do you sink the UK fleet T1 as Germany w/ 2-hit BBs?

    Ozone27


  • North Sea: 4 Fighters, 1 Sub, 1 Transport (Lose a Ftr ~ 85% of the time)
    Gibraltar: 1 Sub, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber (Lose a Ftr ~ 25% of the time)
    Egypt: Battleship

    ‘Typical’ losses (roughly):
    Both subs, 1 transport, and…

    O Fighters - 10%
    1 Fighter - 70%
    2 Fighters - 20%


  • Excellent job of summing up all of the major variations, SUD!

    Each has it’s own merits, and largely depends on your playing style - I think I have used every one of those at one time or another.

    Currently, I prefer to take out the BB in Gibraltar so that a.) it can’t protect UK/US transports to Africa in Turn 1, and b.) the UK will be forced (more or less) to buy an AC on Turn 1 instead of bombers. These two go quite a way in helping to secure Africa.

    If I am UK and I don’t lose my BB on G1, I will buy 2 Bombers on UK1 and the German Fleet is toast on UK2.

    However, if I am Germany with Axis Advantage I will be more conservative with the fighters and use the 5 fighters to the North Sea variation that SUD mentioned.


  • Well, done SUD. Which variant do you most often play with? I don’t use Russia unrestricted that much anymore.


  • Cool. Here are the rules my crew are currently playing with. It’s a wierd hodgepodge. Basically we’ve got 2nd Edition w/ the following modifications:

    1.)RR
    2.)Submerging Subs
    3.)No East/West Canada (meaning no movement between West Canada and Hudson Bay SZ–if that’s not already standard 2nd Edition; I can’t remember).

    Naval Occupation is allowed–that is, no launching ships while the SZ is occupied by enemy units.

    One of our players is considering a house rule of 2-hit BBs, so I wanted to get an idea of how it impacts the game before I came down on one side or the other. I’ve heard it helps the Axis, but looking at Germany T1, I couldn’t really see how–except for the Anglo-Egypt Sudan amphibious invasion.

    What would you do given the above rules + RR?

    Ozone27


  • Sir Ozone,

    Given your rules on Naval Occupation, I will try my best to blockade the Allied Ports as the Axis. This way I can delay the Allies from launching ships into the adjacent sea zones. This gives Germany time to cut across Africa with the forces would normally be sent to Western Europe or the Russian-German Front.

    PS: I think two hit battleships are more of a benefit to Japan so that they can attack the US Navy on Hawaii without the fear of very many causalities. As far as Germany goes, two hit battleships will improve the German Navy in the Mediterranean.


  • Yeah, 2-Hit BBs are tough on the Germans when they have 2 uk BBs to contend with. Hopefully you can still wipe out uk’s entire navy T1, though this requires RR and the lose of 1 or 2 ftrs in the process.


  • :cry: but I Ozone don’t WANNA lose 2 FTRs!!! :cry:

    Ozone27


  • Don’t worry, the risk of 2 ftrs isn’t that high ~30. But chances are you will lose on fighter ~80


  • 'K, how about this for a tentative opener featuring the above rules plus 2-Hit BBs…(a harsh scathing critique is what I’m looking for–I need an idea of the impact of this rule)…

    USSR moves its fleet to North Sea. Moves 3 INF CAUCASES->KARELIA;4 INF, 2 ARM, 1 FTR RUS->KARELIA; places 8 INF Karelia.

    Germany: Purchases 6 INF, 1ARM, 1 SS

    CM:Africa:1 INF ALG->F.W. AFRICA;1 ARM LIB->F.E.AFRICA->EGYPT;1 INF LIB->EGYPT; 2 INF S. EUROPE->EGYPT

    Mediterranean: 1 BB S. EUROPE->SYRIA SZ;1 TR p/u 2 INF S. EUROPE->SYRIA SZ land on EGYPT

    N. Atlantic: 1 BMR GERM->HUDSON BAY; 2 SUB (BALT/FRANCE)->NORTH SZ; 5 FTR (various)->NORTH SZ

    Eastern Europe: 2 INF 1 ARM UKRAINE->CAUCASES(throwaway force)

    N-CM: All surviving planes land W. EUROPE; 1 TR p/u 1 ARM F/NORWAY->ALGIERIA; 1 INF E. EUROPE->UKRAINE; 2 ARM W.EUROPE->E.EUROPE; 1 ARM UKRAINE->E.EUROPE; 1 ARM 4 INF GERMANY->E. EUROPE

    Place: 4 INF 1 ARM GERMANY; 2 INF S. EUROPE; 1 SS S. EUROPE SZ

    So basically at the end of the turn we hope we’ve got 6 INF, 5 ARM IN E. EUROPE; 2 INF UKRAINE; 1 INF 1 ARM CAUCASES; 1 ARM ALGIERIA;1 INF F. W. AFRICA; 2 INF 1 ARM EGYPT; 1 BB (1/2 strength), 1 TR SYRIA SZ; 1 SS S. EUROPE SZ; 2 INF 4 FTR 1 BMR w. EUROPE; 4 INF 2 ARM GERMANY; 2 INF 1 ARM S. EUROPE; 3 INF F/NORWAY

    CI: 39 IPCs, now has 40

    This move seems mediocre to me at best. I liked SUDs “c**k-blocker” idea in the Med, and I saved most of my Air Force, but I am gonna let USA move around w/ her TR (the only alternative would be to use the SS in W. EUROPE to hit it and I might lose an extra FTR or waste the TR in the BALTIC); I left a UK BB (a most odious option to me); and can just barely kill the Soviets after they attack E. EUROPE T2. But I do have 40 IPCs. What should I do different? Seems like 2-Hit BBs are bad for Germany right now–except for the attack in Egypt…

    Ozone27


  • Looks good! But next time… can you make it a little easier on the eyes to read? :)


  • SUD is right, either you hold Eastern Europe with everything or retreat to SE or Germany to launch a possible counterattack if you can lure the Russians into taking it. However, with only 6 INF, 5 ARM IN E. EUROPE, as Russia I will attack Germany the next turn and make them pay. The loss of ARM is enough for the Axis to lose the game. Usually, I will shift all possible forces to EE at the end of G1 (even ARM). This prevents Russia from taking it might even allow me to take Ukraine G2 depending on the Allies’ actions.


  • @Soon_U_Die:

    My main messages are:

    Hold EE with EVERYTHING, if you are going to hold it at all, otherwise pull out.

    Hold WE on G1, with the minimum units required if you decide to hold EE, otherwise hold it with Arm, and free 1 or both Inf to move to Ger.

    If you buy a blocker, make certain the EMed sub dies when playing Naval Occupation.

    Preserve your armour, don’t waste 1 on Caucusus if there are 2 Inf there. If only 1 Inf, then risk the 2 vs 1 if you like.

    God gave you Russia Restricted so that your tranny could die a glorious death in NAVAL combat. Don’t waste it on transporting an armour to Algeria…which can get pegged easily anyway. You risk losing an air elsewhere for a dubious gain.

    SUD

    OK I sorta get it, but bear w/ me :wink: …

    I see the risk of the SS purchase w/ Naval Occupation. I will be vigilant…

    Hold Western Europe w/ ARM? What if I wanna hit Karelia sometime soon? Doesn’t that “trap” my ARM there?

    Why not take Caucases w/ a throwaway force if it gets you a few extra IPCs T1 (when theoretically you can’t be bombed too bad) and makes USSR take it back? I mean there’s only 2 (or 1, or 3) guys there…sure looks tempting. I believe you, I just don’t get it :( …

    I don’t understand how trading Western Europe (essentially giving the Allies an extra 6 IPCs each turn) is gonna be worth it. Karelia is worth more strategically, but economically–man it seems like an awful risk!Explain…

    What is my overall strategy in Africa? Dominate for several turns? Or just pick away at territory until the Allies kill me? In other words–how many troops am I to commit there in the long run?

    Realistically what are my chances against Russia in the long run if they do NOT attack Eastern Europe T2 (that is I put virtually everything there and they wimp-out)?

    If East Europe is the “key”, then why not use the Baltic TR to move 2 additional guys over from Finland/Norway, and use an extra 2 elsewhere (like Caucases or Western Europe for defense)?

    Please explain–I wanna know!

    As far as your question about the rules: I dunno why exactly it is! :) Basically we started w/ the 2nd Edition, we added Submerging Subs a few games later 'cuz it sounded cool (and we kept it 'cuz it worked well) and we’d been playing like that for a very long time. Then a few games ago we (after much political wrangling) got everyone to agree on RR and of course it improved our games immensely. Then one of us created his own goofy “house rule” that if anyone gets a new tech, and their Capital is subsequently taken, the conqueror “steals” the tech (incidentally, as can be expected, that rule has never been applied to anything). Now everybody wants their own “house rule” and one of the guys wants “2-hit BBs”. That’s the story of how this wierd combination of rules we play under has evolved. I wanted an idea of the impact of the rule before I raised an objection or not…Personally, I’m thinking about “Scorched Earth”…hmmmm :wink: …

    Anyway, please explain your ideas further…I’m listening…

    Ozone27


  • Ozone,

    I prepared a 3,000 word essay for you on Axis strategy, and when I was 90% complete….damn thunderstorm…and yep, I lost it. Was absolutely fuming…so for now you will have to get the short form.

    On the Baltic tranny, Finland etc. I use the tranny against the Allied fleet in RR for two basic reasons: in almost all scenarios on G1, the tranny can tilt the balance of the naval engagements to save you a Ftr. Since I view German Ftrs as the most important starting Axis pieces, and absolutely critical for mid-late game defence, trading in Europe etc…I am loathe to lose them. Second, the Allied power to fear most at the start is the Russkie. You definately want to hold EE if possible…but you need to think about the first two complete turns. If you repatriate the 2 Inf on G1 from Finland…the US can take Finland on US 1 with 2 Inf & 1 Bomber. This means that no Russkies will be diverted. I prefer to leave all 4 units there…then the UK can’t hit it (presuming dead trannies), the US is very unlikely to hit 4 units…that means either the Russkie leaves it…or the Russkie hits it. Presuming I have a guy in Ukraine, the most likely outcome is that 1-2 guys get sent with a Ftr or two to Ukraine. The armour and 3 Inf get sent to Finland. Almost all Russian players will commit 3 Inf or more to the Finland battle. That is then 3 Inf less to worry about on an R3 attack into EE. Plus I might actually get some decent defense up there. And cost him a few Inf. But at the least, there will be 3 Russians unable to attack EE. Or, if he doesn’t hit Finland , I hold it through G2. Make sense?

    Regarding Caucusus on G1. Go ahead if there is only 1 Inf…I will sometimes do a 2 vs 1 Inf attack in those occasions. But if there is 2 or more there, don’t bother (exception: if there are 5 there…kill em). Why invest $11 to kill $6, and gain $3? German Inf are always at a premium, and you don’t want to lose them in equal or near equal trades. Nothing Germany has should be considered throw away, except her subs and the Baltic tranny, even those have a critical effect by protecting your air. You only have a few turns to build your walls in WE and EE. Every unit you lose is precious in the early rounds. By turn 4, you will be hopelessly out built on the key EE/Karelia front. Trading guys early should only be done for strategic reasons. So sending 3 units to kill 2 Russkies is not my strategy. Defending in EE, those 3 units will require 5 Russkie units to attack.

    Regarding hold WE with armour on G1, when you have failed to take out both UK trannies…I want to free all my Infantry (except 1) to sit in Ger/SE so that I can take EE in force on the next turn. If you hold WE with Inf…you won’t be able to hold EE the next turn. IMO, you must hold EE in force within the first 3 rds, or you are dead. The armour are only there for 1 turn…they will go to EE next turn.

    Regarding WE…it is less important in the first 3 rounds than EE for strategic reasons. Assuming both UK trannies gone…they can’t hit it, and 2 Inf, 1 Ftr is enough to keep the US at bay. On G2, I want to ensure that I can continue to hold EE. Since the US is often able to land 8 Inf on US 2, I would need significant forces to hold WE…but if I do that, often I can’t hold EE, because of the R3 buy. If I can hold both on G2…great. But, if only 1…then I choose EE. Two reasons: your biggest early game threat is the Allies getting and holding EE at the outset. If that happens you are doomed, you will have to commit the entire German army to get them out (if you can). Even if you win this battle, you lose the war, since you have so few units remaining…and the Allies will be just starting to hit their stride with land units on T3/T4. Consider the math behind massed defence units. The more you have in units on defence, the greater the investment required to hit them. The more the Allies will need $5 Arm instead of $3 Inf. If I can keep the Russkie out of play, and the Jap is foing his job…by R4, the Russkie will start having to place some Inf in Moscow. He doesn’t have to do that the first 3 turns.

    So, I let the Allies trade the $6 WE territory for a turn or two, until I can get enough forces to hold both EE and WE. I then take WE back in force. There will always be a 1 turn US lag, somewhere in the first 3 turns. The turn where the US trannies are in the NorthSea, but the Inf/Arm build is in EUSA/WUSA. This is usually US 3…US 1 build 3 trannies…US 2 move 8 Inf, build more Inf. US 3…empty trannies. So, yes, you let them have the $6 if necessary, but the ability to hold EE is paramount to this decision.

    On armour holding WE…and wanting to hit Karelia. All I can say is that I never expect to be able to hit Karelia against a decent Allied player. Consequently, I’ll hold it with Arm…so I can free the infantry to take and hold EE on the next turn. My advice to you is pretend Karelia is an atomic wasteland. Bad Russkie mutants can come out of the wasteland, but Germans should never go in there.

    On Africa, you should consider it a miracle if the German fleet survives beyond T2. Likely in a no-bid game…you will lose the game and war on the dark continent. Once you start playing better Allied opponents they will smack you in AES on UK1 if you go there and crush your Africa campaign before it starts. Anything less than 5 units in AES after G1…is normally pretty much game over. Hence, why advanced players all play with a bid. In RR it is usually 6-9…all in Libya.

    But assuming your Allied player doesn’t want to go to AES on UK1, your goal is to get to SAfrica ASAP, then pull back to AES and await the Allied landings. If you move fast, Japan can resupply AES, and delay the eventual fall of Africa until T6/T7 or even later. She does this with Ftrs and Inf support. You want to hold East Africa…AES to SAfrica. Forget holding or trying to hold the West half of the continent. Get your guy from FWA back to FEA on G2. Then back to AES on G3. Don’t piecemeal attack in Africa against early Allied landings. You want enough of a force sitting in AES, that the first Allied dump into Africa is not enough to take you out of AES. You want to force the US to land at least twice. If you are really good…fortunate…you can force the Allies to land 3/4 or more times…if you go all out with a Jap tranny strategy and constantly reinforce. This takes pressure off Germany in Karelia…and fewer Allies to go through Karelia to Asia…so makes up for less Jap pressure on Russia. In the game I am currently in…the Allies have 35 units in Africa…and still Germany owns AES to SAfrica. I have 15 Jap infantry and 3 Ftrs and an AA supporting 9 German units (was a bid game). Neither Allied force is strong enough to dislodge me. A double attack could probably kill me off, but it would cost the Allies all 35 units, plus most if not all of their 6 Ftrs, 2 Bombers in range. So, on US 8 they are going to be forced to land again…as will Japan. By US 10, they will likely outpace my ability to reinforce…but by then…I’ll be a monster in Asia. The key with Africa is to tie up enough Allied units for long enough that…Germany has sufficient income to keep her borders secure, there are fewer units going to Karelia, which is less pressure on EE, and less pressure through Russia into Asia, and buys time for the Japanese war machine to hit peak stride.

    This is difficult with no bid. When playing a strong Allied player who counters AES on UK 1…you have no real choice but to delay attacking AES until G2. That raises other questions…for later. For now, if you can get 4 Inf total to Africa in the first 2 rounds…consider yourself luicky. Anything after that is gravy. If you get lucky in a no-bid game and keep all those 7 units total alive…that is sufficient to withstand the first Allied load in Africa…if you can get Jap ftrs in place.

    Hope this all helps.

    SUD


  • No, cause thats the short forum! lol :lol:


  • That was a very, patient & polite post, SUD :D –and enlightening as well!

    I still don’t know if 2-hit BBs is a good rule for Germany–I guess the pluses for Japan outweigh the minuses for Germany.

    Ozone27

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