Was it worth adding ART to the game?

naw its easy. only tanks can move 2 so you just separate the ones that moved two from the rest. Usually they will all have 2 MP left anyway.

it wouldn’t really solve anything because now that both sides are constantly strafing in and out which is what it looks like normally

It would allow the defender a chance to attack with his tanks instead of losing them because you didn’t roll well enough and your fodder was stripped away. Getting stuck w/o fodder is not good because it creates artificial battles where your just going after money because tanks cost more compared to infantry. That mechanism is wack. its nothing like any warfare of any period. Battles should only be useful because you need to have a real advantage to win a battle… not some cheap thing where you exchange off your infantry for enemy tanks. If infantry went up w/o tank support it would get chewed to pieces. Id even have a modifier of +1 for tanks defense if this happens.

@Imperious:

Well it creates an artificial implement for German strategy. They basically need to buy a fleet ( usually a carrier ) to avoid getting invaded by American and British fleets is a limitation on the critical German battles it must fight against the Soviets. The German fleet was not created to protect Germany from invasion it was used to attack transports and sink them and avoid direct military confrontation. The game totally lacks any substantial German strategy of using subs to defeat england which they tried in both world wars. IN AA this simply does not exist… in AA for Germany to survive in Baltic they must by a freeking Carrier? This is not a solution that i want made for me.

The German AC strat is no longer used by the best lobby players….it’s not a stupid move imo, but I think it’s not the best G strat.
Decent players sometimes buy AC G1, and sometimes G2 if UK don’t attack sz5.
The G AC buy is a hard one to decide.
“G must buy AC”?? Sry but u r wrong on this one.
In my games I don’t get many ipc for holding sz5. In triplea it’s zero ipc, this is a bug perhaps?  :roll:  :-)

U r right on the sub matter.
Subs r very poorly depicted in A&A, the battle of Atlantic almost made the allies lose the war on the western front.
Russia would prevail after Stalingrad, but for UK, US, France etc. the German subs were a big pain in the ass.

The German AC strat is no longer used by the best lobby players….it’s not a stupid move imo, but I think it’s not the best G strat.
Decent players sometimes buy AC G1, and sometimes G2 if UK don’t attack sz5.
The G AC buy is a hard one to decide.
“G must buy AC”?? Sry but u r wrong on this one.

what i said:

They basically need to buy a fleet ( usually a carrier ) among other things…

i didn’t say they MUST buy a carrier. I said the game usually requires some naval builds to protect the allies from going into the Baltic and to protect the German fleet. They are basically stuck because the fleet must fight because the game has no ports to hide into and the rules have no qualifications for allies just sailing the Denmark straights unmolested> Its totally ridiculous as this area was mined and the ships would sink. They usually need something and the reason they should buy fleet units is for an entirely unusual reason which the game introduces and its totally unhistorical. Thats my real point

Ok, we agree with that G don’t have to buy fleet in baltic, but if G want to protect the baltic fleet they must buy some
navy for protection, because the game don’t allow ports. The G subs, trans and DD’s could hide in the ports instead of
being sitting duck. Yes, the game should implement ports for that matter. I think a harbour would fix that.
Let’s say 1 MP to move from port in baltic to sz 5, and same for Italy and the med fleet.

And while I’m on it: subs get to chose their targets, perhaps for the first rnd of combat only.
If 2 or more subs attack the same sz, first rnd of combat subs attack at 3.

About pac. I think it’s not wise to change many rules radically. Maybe a single rule or a single unit, but the pac TT’s need revision.
Jap shouldn’t be allow to attack Russia if Russia doesn’t attack Jap first. This means a whole game can be played without
combat between Russian and Jap forces.
The most obvious changes to make US go after Jap, or vice versa, is to make islands in pac more valuable.
This is wrong according to historical facts about production on islands in the pac, but I think it’s the most practical
solution to make powers fight over TT’s that is not usually contested in todays map.
The premise is that ipc value should determine not only economical resources, but also strategic value.
I personally like Norway at 3 ipc :)

I like several of your ideas for A&A to become more historical correct and more realistic according to war and battles in general.
The question is how to do it without making the game any more complex, and not more confusing than it already is.
I already mentioned that it should not take longer to finish a game that it does today.
Sometimes I prefer to relate A&A with chess. U can teach a ten year old to play chess according to rules
in few hours, and that’s it! The kid will learn as he play, either against other kids or even adults. Not so with A&A  :evil:
If u have never played any A&A variant, u need several days, using up to 5-7 hours each day for up to a week perhaps,
to get a hold of all rules, unit values, and how to play somewhat wisely.
In triplea the program does that for u, but originally both classic and revised are boardgames.

I think Larry was thinking about port defense where aircraft in an adjacent territory to the sea could defend. Heh heh, that’d be scary huh with 6 fighters in W. Europe also defending the Baltic without having to buy a carrier O_O!

Some plays on IL’s ideas.

1)  Change the Technologies too:

Heavy Bombers = 2d6 damage can kill two units or 1d6+1 SBR damage (I still hate SBR, but you’ll see why I allow this later.)

Super Submarines = Submarines now do SBR damage to convoys.  1 IPC per submarine within 2 spaces of enemy industrial complexes (maximum of land value and that’s including rockets and SBR damage.)  Submarines attack at 3, defend at 2.

Rockets = No Change.

Combined Arms = Same as LHTR 1.3 except Battleships also act as AA Guns

Jets = Same as LHTR 1.3

Mechanized Infantry = Infantry may move two spaces and blitz as tanks do. (Think America’s Mechanized Infantry advantage.)

2. AA Guns should fire each round of combat. Max 1 shot per gun, per round hits are applied to fighters, then bombers.

3. SBR changed so bombers may remain over their target until shot down by AA Fire or maximum damage has been done.

4. Japan may not attack Russia and Russia may not attack Japan until America or Germany falls.

5. America MUST use at least 50% of their income on units to attack Japan. (Yes, that means you have to have 50% of your units attacking Japan.  No it does not have to be 1 battleship in the Pacific and 1 in the Atlantic.  But you cannot have 200 IPC army in Europe and 100 IPC fleet in the Pacific.)  FDR was under a lot of pressure back home to attack Japan and a lot of pressure abroad to help with Hitler.  Not to mention, this helps balance out that Germany can expect no help from Japan with Russia!

6. Neutrals should be attackable for 1 IPC at the cost of 5 IPC. (ie, if you attack Mongolia and pay the $5 charge, you get $1 for every round it is not liberated.  Liberating a Neutral does not get you the $1.  You would have to attack it after liberation and pay the $5 charge.)

7. Artillery hits on a 1, still costs 4, but does not move into the territory being attacked, it attacks from an adjacent territory in the opening fire step of the game.  Infantry are no longer supported by artillery and all infantry attack at 1 and defend at 2.  Artillery defends at 3.  If used for combat in opening fire, it may NOT move.  Just like if an AA Gun fires a rocket it cannot move that round.

8.) Fighters not used in combat may fly patrols against enemy bombers.  If you attack an industrial complex, the defending fighters may attack your bombers at 3 or less.  Bombers may return fire at 4 or less. (This is assumed to be your fighter escorts attacking the enemy fighters.)  This combat is limited to one round.  Any surviving bombers may engage after any AA Fire is rolled.

9. Each combat costs $2.  If you attack 3 territories, you pay $6 to be paid out of your collect income phase.

10. For each successful defense you are paid $1.  This is in recovered plunder and salvage.

If many of your ideas would be implemented Jennifer, I would not play that game.
It would not be A&A.

@Lucifer:

If many of your ideas would be implemented Jennifer, I would not play that game.
It would not be A&A.

Way to give me specific details on what you don’t like and why.

1)  Change the Technologies too:

Heavy Bombers = 2d6 damage can kill two units or 1d6+1 SBR damage (I still hate SBR, but you’ll see why I allow this later.)
Super Submarines = Submarines now do SBR damage to convoys.  1 IPC per submarine within 2 spaces of enemy industrial complexes (maximum of land value and that’s including rockets and SBR damage.)  Submarines attack at 3, defend at 2.
Rockets = No Change.
Combined Arms = Same as LHTR 1.3 except Battleships also act as AA Guns
Jets = Same as LHTR 1.3
Mechanized Infantry = Infantry may move two spaces and blitz as tanks do. (Think America’s Mechanized Infantry advantage.)

+++++++great!

2. AA Guns should fire each round of combat. Max 1 shot per gun, per round hits are applied to fighters, then bombers.

++++++++++ yes something like this is better, not sure about fighters… they are after all shooting at slow level Bombers and fighters move too fast

3. SBR changed so bombers may remain over their target until shot down by AA Fire or maximum damage has been done.

++++ more brilliant ideas

4. Japan may not attack Russia and Russia may not attack Japan until America or Germany falls.

++++ as Per AARHE rules!

5. America MUST use at least 50% of their income on units to attack Japan. (Yes, that means you have to have 50% of your units attacking Japan.  No it does not have to be 1 battleship in the Pacific and 1 in the Atlantic.  But you cannot have 200 IPC army in Europe and 100 IPC fleet in the Pacific.)  FDR was under a lot of pressure back home to attack Japan and a lot of pressure abroad to help with Hitler.  Not to mention, this helps balance out that Germany can expect no help from Japan with Russia!

++++++++++ yes i hate the choice of KGF or KJF i want both! I am not sure about the amount as 50% but your on the right track IMO

6. Neutrals should be attackable for 1 IPC at the cost of 5 IPC. (ie, if you attack Mongolia and pay the $5 charge, you get $1 for every round it is not liberated.  Liberating a Neutral does not get you the $1.  You would have to attack it after liberation and pay the $5 charge.)

+++++++++++++++ kinda like Xeno games rules, I would at least have some armies and diplomacy

7. Artillery hits on a 1, still costs 4, but does not move into the territory being attacked, it attacks from an adjacent territory in the opening fire step of the game.  Infantry are no longer supported by artillery and all infantry attack at 1 and defend at 2.  Artillery defends at 3.  If used for combat in opening fire, it may NOT move.  Just like if an AA Gun fires a rocket it cannot move that round.

+++++ very avant garde thinking… i like this> You should have mentioned something like this before. Nobody has ever come up with such an idea and its very original IMO.

8.) Fighters not used in combat may fly patrols against enemy bombers.  If you attack an industrial complex, the defending fighters may attack your bombers at 3 or less.  Bombers may return fire at 4 or less. (This is assumed to be your fighter escorts attacking the enemy fighters.)  This combat is limited to one round.  Any surviving bombers may engage after any AA Fire is rolled.

+++++++ well id rather employ the AAE rules for escorts

9. Each combat costs $2.  If you attack 3 territories, you pay $3 to be paid out of your collect income phase.

++++++= good

10. For each successful defense you are paid $1.  This is in recovered plunder and salvage.

+++++++ outside the box again. interesting.

Great ideas really!

Yea, I like the idea of the AA Guns firing once per combat round and the defenders shot down getting a chance to shoot like normal casualties.  After all, do you honestly want me to believe that the AA Gun crews leave their positions after firing once and pick up their grease-guns to continue shooting at the planes?  I think not!  Likewise, why should 4 attacking fighters have the chance to all be shot down before they can fire?  What’s that AA Gun made out of!?!?  I didn’t think they had the phalanx system in World War II. :P

I appreciate the comments on the artillery bombardments.  Not completely my idea, just a new application of it.  Some have talked about Artillery functioning from outside the territory, I just expanded it to act like bombarding battleships, made it harder to kill (after all, artillery was usually dug into the high ground when possible, not like you could sneak up and put a grenade under it. :P) but weaker on attack (since it’s a free hit removing the defender from play without a return shot possible, just like getting hit by a battleship or destroyer bombarding you.)

Still thinking about the technologies.  Not uber happy with them yet, but I think they’re better then what’s in the box.  Maybe the Combined Arms should make Destroyers have the AA Gun ability not battleships…but then, while that’s more historically accurate, it makes destroyers a little too powerful.  Battleships with it isn’t so bad, you don’t exactly buy 5 battleships in a game.

As for the 50/50 split with America (could be 0/100 Germany/Japan too, mind you) I just like the idea of forcing America to actually attack Japan.  This alone should end the need for a bid in this game.  If you need one, it’s probably 2 IPC to Japan so they can build 3 submarines and a destroyer on round 1. :P

@_@ I’m really too lazy to discuss potential changes, it tires me out because of the possibilities. I’ll just let Larry do his thing and let you guys discuss since I really don’t know much about WW2 and how much realism should make it into the game without making it more complicated than it already is (and it is probably already too complicated if you look at the steep learning curve).

What thread is this again?  Seriously, you guys are so far off topic, you’re not even in the same zip code as this topic . . . :roll:

It’s not so much about historical accuracy as just rebalancing the game so bids are not needed.

Larry’s been hinting at massive changes, it is very difficult to speculate on that those are or how they will work until he releases the details.

Whoa, what’s this, is there a plan for a “revised revised” version?

Yup, the next ladder on the rung. A&A classic –> A&A revised --> A&A deluxe or something like that. Go to his site and read some posts in the forums!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

@Ender:

Whoa, what’s this, is there a plan for a “revised revised” version?

Axis and Allies Revised++

Revised/Revised just sounds too redundant.

@Cmdr:

Some plays on IL’s ideas.

1)  Change the Technologies too:

Heavy Bombers = 2d6 damage can kill two units or 1d6+1 SBR damage (I still hate SBR, but you’ll see why I allow this later.)

---

Super Submarines = Submarines now do SBR damage to convoys.  1 IPC per submarine within 2 spaces of enemy industrial complexes (maximum of land value and that’s including rockets and SBR damage.)  Submarines attack at 3, defend at 2.

---

Rockets = No Change.

---

Combined Arms = Same as LHTR 1.3 except Battleships also act as AA Guns

---

Jets = Same as LHTR 1.3

---

Mechanized Infantry = Infantry may move two spaces and blitz as tanks do. (Think America’s Mechanized Infantry advantage.)

I don’t play with tech, imo it’s not serious to play with tech, but probably it
can be improved somehow.

2. AA Guns should fire each round of combat. Max 1 shot per gun, per round hits are applied to fighters, then bombers.

This change is too radical, and how will it affect the game?

3. SBR changed so bombers may remain over their target until shot down by AA Fire or maximum damage has been done.

Too radical, how to calculate if it’s worth doing sbr?

4. Japan may not attack Russia and Russia may not attack Japan until America or Germany falls.

I agree only with that Jap cannot attack Russia, becuase Jap attacked
Russia in WW2, but they were severely beaten

5. America MUST use at least 50% of their income on units to attack Japan. (Yes, that means you have to have 50% of your units attacking Japan.  No it does not have to be 1 battleship in the Pacific and 1 in the Atlantic.  But you cannot have 200 IPC army in Europe and 100 IPC fleet in the Pacific.)  FDR was under a lot of pressure back home to attack Japan and a lot of pressure abroad to help with Hitler.  Not to mention, this helps balance out that Germany can expect no help from Japan with Russia!

I totally disagree! I must not do anything that will not help me win the game.
FDR was in a completely different situation than A&A players who play US!
The reason why KJF fails, but is still debated…is what makes the game exciting.
I was stupid for Japan to attack US, but in theory they could contain US out of pac for a few years, but that
wouldn’t help Jap, because Jap didn’t have enough production compared with US.
So in a war of resources, u will lose the war if u fail to gain the income and advantage that is needed.
If Germany succeded on the eastern front, they would dominate the Eurasian continent, and the rest of
the world except for South and north America.
This is because Russia had ND still has a lot of resources that Germany didnt have.
Same as for Japan.
If unbalanced, and not “finished” A&A perfectly resembles the fact that if u go to war, u better win, and if u don’t have the
production u need, u have to get it, or u loose.

6. Neutrals should be attackable for 1 IPC at the cost of 5 IPC. (ie, if you attack Mongolia and pay the $5 charge, you get $1 for every round it is not liberated.  Liberating a Neutral does not get you the $1.  You would have to attack it after liberation and pay the $5 charge.)

I would rather have the neutral rules from classic.

7. Artillery hits on a 1, still costs 4, but does not move into the territory being attacked, it attacks from an adjacent territory in the opening fire step of the game.  Infantry are no longer supported by artillery and all infantry attack at 1 and defend at 2.  Artillery defends at 3.  If used for combat in opening fire, it may NOT move.  Just like if an AA Gun fires a rocket it cannot move that round.

Too radical, again…

8.) Fighters not used in combat may fly patrols against enemy bombers.  If you attack an industrial complex, the defending fighters may attack your bombers at 3 or less.  Bombers may return fire at 4 or less. (This is assumed to be your fighter escorts attacking the enemy fighters.)  This combat is limited to one round.  Any surviving bombers may engage after any AA Fire is rolled.

Tactical management, and makes game more complicated.

9. Each combat costs $2.  If you attack 3 territories, you pay $6 to be paid out of your collect income phase.

10. For each successful defense you are paid $1.  This is in recovered plunder and salvage.

This is just stupid, what u lose in combat is units, and units cost money.
if something like this were implemented, I would not like to play that game.
This is already handled, by if u move 10 tanks adjecant to  enemy TT, and opponent strikes u with inf, ftrs, art, tanks,
u will lose more then the oppononet. He made a good tuv trade, at least if strafing.

How old are you Jennifer, 20?

“if you are not radical when you are 20, you have no heart, but if you are not conservative when you are 40, then
you have no brain”.

Winston Churchill.

Lucifer, it’s not nice to ask a lady her age.  But I’m 30 if you must know.

Anyway, anyone who does not play with tech in the game is playing a juvenile version of Axis and Allies.  Juveniles have a hard time following too many variants of the rules so they have to be dumbed down to be understood.

Anyway, AA Guns would get 1 shot at 1 against air power each round.  That means if you attack with 5 fighters and take the territory in one round, only one of your planes gets shot at.  This seems to be a bit more powered for the attacker and less for the defender if you ask me.  However, likewise, if you attack Russia and it takes 10 rounds, then you run the risk of losing 10 aircraft over the course of the battle.

Likewise, determining the value of SBR runs is in question.  It’s no longer a static average of 3 IPC lost per round and an average of 3.5 IPC in damage done.  Now it’s a potential to do 10 IPC in damage to Germany without loss by a single bomber, or the potential of that AA Gun hitting in Round 1 of the bombing run, Round 2 of the bombing run, round 3 of the bombing run, etc.  So you do more damage, but you run more risk as well.  (Not to mention you could have 3 guns protecting Germany and each one would get a shot!)

I, for one, like the idea of deterrence to SBR runs myself.  Many American and British pilots lost their lives bombing Germany because Germany was canvassed with AA Guns!

The 50% or more of America’s assets going against Japan is to give Germany some aid as well as make the game a little more fun in the long run.  21 IPC in equipment going to Europe every round from America is still a significant source of funds.  This is not going to kill any KGF or SGF strategies, but it will force you to develop your long term, mature and sophisticated gaming strategies and rely less on the infantry push mechanic. (Since you’ll be stacking infantry slower, which means the Germans could amass more armor/fighters to over whelm you faster.)

As mentioned before, the whole idea of the artillery change is because I do not remember too many Large Howitzers plowing into close combat with the enemy.  Tanks mingled, infantry mingled, fighters mingled, bombers mingled.  Artillery sat safe behind the lines when their infantry were attacking.  However, because they have the effect of +3 attacking punch if coupled with an infantry unit in Revised, I thought it too powerful to let them hang back.  Thus, I reduced them to only hitting on a 1 and having no effect on attacking infantry.  A significant nerf for the added benefit of letting them hang back. (Not to mention since they do not physically enter the territory they also cannot takes possession of the territory.  Just like a Battleship cannot.)  And since they only attack once on attack (every combat round on defense) this is hardly “radical.”

I dunno Lucy, maybe you need to go back and re-read the definition of “radical.”  Those changes are relatively moderate and benign but rather force the game out of the stagnant rut it has found itself in and force people to make some tactical and strategic decisions.  People have begun to default to standard things they have seen others do and we’re heading right back into the infantry push mechanic more and more each day.  Artillery has become almost a rare event in a battle.  Too expensive to lose for Russia/England/Germany, too weak to be of much use in small battles (90% or more of the game.)  Armor is still a good flavor, but 3 armor < 5 infantry on defense, so infantry still win out.

Not to mention, under the proposed changes, artillery will now become a viable anchor for infantry freeing up tanks and planes for other events.

Anyone who thinks the rules need to be any more complicated should try programming a combat simulator first…

Back on topic: in my current game, I have just built 7 Art over the last 2 rounds with the UK, because I could’nt afford armor to fill my production quota.