• 2007 AAR League

    When you say the Geman capital is harder to keep, are you disagree with the below analysis?  What part do you disagree with?

    @rjclayton:

    I would say Russia, because proven strats have been developed where the axis either go after Germany first or Japan first (KGF/KJF), but pretty much every Allied strat involves Taking down Russia first.

    If we assume Axis win 50% and Allies win 50%, then the breakdown of who loses their capital first should look something like this:
    Russia - 49%
    Germany - 45%
    Japan - 5%
    UK - 1%
    USA - 0%

    Blanket statements like “Germany doesn’t buy ships” are funny, and can always be proven wrong by some wacky buy, but in this case I think a statement like this is reasonably accurate.  (A statement that Russia doesn’t buy ships could also be proven wrong!)  If you have been reading about German naval buys on these forums, perhaps you were reading in the revised threads?  Since I don’t remember any threads like that in this classic area.  I agree with Bashir that any German naval buy in classic is a bad idea.


  • @ankmcfly:

    @Bashir:

    Wich high dollar ships are you talking about nub? Germany doesn’t buy ships!

    Re-read what is said. (MAY NEED)
    A blanket statement about what Germany buys is funny. I’ve only been on this forum for a few weeks and I
    have seen people posting all over the place about Germany buying ships, and which ones make sense.
    And they are people who are not (nubs?) noobs like me (who has played A&A since the first edtion came out.)
    BTW - How could Germany ever take UK Capital without ships? I know, they could take the Chunnel!

    My belief is that unless the axis can take out russia, the game is lost.  But russia is easy to play (IMO) and the US and UK SHOULD be able to take down germany and japan.

  • 2007 AAR League

    So Zosima, you think that the allies should win every time?  I am with you there is you play without a bid.  If you play with a bid I wonder why the allies would still win every time?  Are you bidding too low for the axis?


  • my conclusion is this…
    Even with a bid in the 15-20 range, i think the allies should win EVERY time.  Here is my thinking on why…
    IPC counts from the get go…
    USSR = 24 + UK = 30 + US= 36
    this means a total IPC of 90

    GR = 32 + JP25 = 57.

    so, hypothetically even if germany is able to get another 12 IPC and japan another12 (these are rough guesses)
    the the total would be 81 and 66.

    with russia buying nothing but infantry the should be able to hold out for awhile, even with germany and japan pressuring.
    Aperica, using my strategy, is bombing germany strategically so germany isnt getting near the 45 IPC’s they COULD be getting.  They are getting far less.  (very often they end up collecting in the 12-19 range because of all my bombers.
    And then its just a matter of time.  Pressure + time = allied victory.

  • 2007 AAR League

    So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

  • Moderator

    I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

    I think Germany is the hardest because even with a large bid, if you have one screw-up or bad roll it can really cost you, whereas if Russia has a bad roll it is a bit easier for the UK and US to go into full protection mode of Russia then it would be for Japan to help Germany.

    Germany has a lot of first rd “must” attacks that a bid may not help, they have to kill the Brit fleet, take out the Gib BB, possibly kill the sub in the Med, possbily take out the UK trn off Ecan, and take out Egy, and that ignores Europe.  Even with a PAfr bid that is a lot of battles that can possibly go wrong.

    Russia worst case, can play extremely defensive early on and still be quite a powerful force mid game.

    It is always cheaper and easier to defend, thus the pressure is always on the Axis to do something and shift the momentum early on so you can make your move sometime in rd 4-8, but that is easier said then done and any delay or set back can be costly.


  • Blanket statements like “Germany doesn’t buy ships” are funny, and can always be proven wrong by some wacky buy, but in this case I think a statement like this is reasonably accurate.  (A statement that Russia doesn’t buy ships could also be proven wrong!)  If you have been reading about German naval buys on these forums, perhaps you were reading in the revised threads?  Since I don’t remember any threads like that in this classic area.  I agree with Bashir that any German naval buy in classic is a bad idea.

    Yes, it was most likely revised threads. I’ve seen Germany buy ships for the Med in Classic also with the idea of keeping Africa longer or to ward of Africa landings. (To varying degree of success, I might add.) But, that option is certainly more viable than Russia buying ever ships. I’ll stick with Germany being the hardest to keep, regardless.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @DarthMaximus:

    I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

    To play, or to keep their capital?


  • @rjclayton:

    So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

    well, i think for me and my group of players, its the challenge of playing the axis.  And they dont ALWYS get “smoked”.  Its just more then likely.

  • Moderator

    @rjclayton:

    @DarthMaximus:

    I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

    To play, or to keep their capital?

    Both.

    @zosima:

    @rjclayton:

    So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

    well, i think for me and my group of players, its the challenge of playing the axis. And they dont ALWYS get “smoked”. Its just more then likely.

    There’s also nothing wrong with giving the Axis a 23-24 bid and challanging the Allies.

    A Power Afr bid of 23
    1 inf  - EE
    2 inf - Man
    3 inf, 1 arm - Lib

    This presents the Allies with a pretty good challenge.  You can probably get away with 1 inf to Man and if you get 24 bid go with 5 inf to Lib, 1 ee, 2 man.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    @rjclayton:

    @DarthMaximus:

    I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

    To play, or to keep their capital?

    Both.

    @zosima:

    @rjclayton:

    So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

    well, i think for me and my group of players, its the challenge of playing the axis. And they dont ALWYS get “smoked”. Its just more then likely.

    There’s also nothing wrong with giving the Axis a 23-24 bid and challanging the Allies.

    A Power Afr bid of 23
    1 inf  - EE
    2 inf - Man
    3 inf, 1 arm - Lib

    This presents the Allies with a pretty good challenge.  You can probably get away with 1 inf to Man and if you get 24 bid go with 5 inf to Lib, 1 ee, 2 man.

    Darth….

    If you got 24-25 bid…
    what about a japanese IR in asia (wherever you want to put it) and then 3 infantry to germany in Africa.
    This would aloow japan to get online quickly against russia while also allowing Germany to get some IPC’s out of Africa.  THoughts of great sage.

  • Moderator

    I’ve found Asia bids to be a bit weaker, because once you box Germany in
    I think the Axis are in real trouble.

    Generally, Japan should gain much of Asia without a fight anyway.

    With no bid to Europe you might see Russia go:
    sub vs. sub off Spain
    trn and ftrs vs. Baltic fleet and
    strafe of Ukr or a take of EE.

    And you are still risking a Egy counter by the UK on UK 1.

    Even if UK doesn’t counter Egy, they’ll retreat to Per and I think you’ll probably see Germany as no threat by rd 2-3 which means all three Allies can push back against Japan if needed.


  • hmm….so then Darth, with 24 IPC’s, what about all 8 on the russian front (maybe in west russia, for a possible assualt on russia in turn 1?  I know doubtful but…

  • Moderator

    @zosima:

    hmm….so then Darth, with 24 IPC’s, what about all 8 on the russian front (maybe in west russia, for a possible assualt on russia in turn 1?  I know doubtful but…

    That would be in Ukr, Wrus is in Revised.  😄

    That would be a Power Europe play.  Very effective but typically for a shorter game and not really my cup of tea.  Either way the game ends in 3-4 rds, b/c either Germany smashes Kar or Russia holds it or deadzones it and the deciding move takes place in rd 3 or 4 when/if Ger hits Moscow.

    It would probably be better to place at least 1 inf in EE just to eliminate that Russian option.  I think it even works well if you do 4 inf EE, 4 Ukr, since Russia can stll attack Cauc but that could leave Kar open and if the Cauc battle goes bad for Russia they could be retreating into trouble.  It also eliminates a ftr (or 2 I forget the exact numbers needed) from the Baltic attack meaning you may still have your Baltic trn alive on G1.
    With 23, if you went to Europe it is nice having the extra armor in EE and the inf on Ukr or go 1 inf, 1 arm EE, 6 inf Ukr.

    I think on G1 you want to buy 4 inf, 4 arm or possibly 6 arm to hit Kar early and hard.

    You’ll probably have to pull out of WE and transporting Afr troops into Cauc or Europe may help for maximum pressure on Russia.

    Any way you look at it, it should be a quick game, and typically not my favorite since it seems to come down to who got the good dice.

  • 2007 AAR League

    And a 23-24 bid is still challenging to the axis, make no mistake.


  • but its still swings the game in favor of te axis even more.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @zosima:

    but its still swings the game in favor of te axis even more.

    What do you mean “even more”?  I thought we were saying a 12-19 bid favoured the Allies significantly?


  • yeah, you got me on a technicality.  Its been that boring of a work day.  …
    what I meant to say is that


  • whoops…


  • what i meant to say is that it DOESNT swing the advantage in the axis favor.

  • 2007 AAR League

    But if you still find that the Allies are winning too much, what’s to stop your group from bidding in the 30s?  40s?  50s?  etc.  Whatever is required to even up the sides?  That’s the beauty of a bid - it should negate any perceived advantage the allies start with, and you should be left with only player skill being the deciding factor.

    No?


  • agreed but its hard to find the perfect bid I think.  If you bid TOO high it can get out of control and germany could just put 8 tanks in easter europe and pretty much march unimpeded into russia.

  • 2007 AAR League

    True.  But the bid should change as supply and demand dictate.  Play a few games where Gemany just walks to Moscow and the bid should be corrected downward (either you or your opponent will not want to give up such a large bid again because of the known outcome) and it should eventually settle in a region where neither the Axis or the Allies have a cakewalk to victory.  I guess that was my point.


  • We are fairly new to the whole “bid” thing, so maybe we jsuthavent figured it out yet.

  • 2007 AAR League

    There is also a reverse bid that you could try.  That is, each player bids to be the ALLIES, and the bid amount is extra IPC given to the AXIS.  Here are two examples illustrating the difference in each type of bid:

    Regular:
    Player 1: I bid 26
    Player 2: I bid 24
    Player 1: I bid 23
    Player 2: pass.  You can take the Axis with a 23 bid.

    Reverse:
    Player 1: I bid 18
    Player 2: I bid 21
    Player 1: I bid 22
    Player 2: pass.  You can take the allies and give me 22 IPC to start.

    If you find that with the regular bid everyone is always undercutting the “reasonable” bid just to play the axis (for the challenge), then a reverse bid might work better where you are bidding for the Allies.  Just a thought.

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