• Fisternis, I heard you don’t believe in God. He’ll be crushed. :)

    THE CASE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
    [PART I]
    by
    Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

    One of the most basic, and most fundamental, issues that can be considered by the human mind is the question, “Does God exist?” In the field of logic, there are principles—or as they are called more often, laws—that govern human thought processes and that are accepted as analytically true. One of these is the law of the excluded middle. When applied to objects, this law states that an object cannot both possess and not possess a certain trait or characteristic at the same time and in the same fashion. When applied to propositions, this law states that all precisely stated propositions are either true or false; they cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same fashion.
    The statement, “God exists,” is a precisely stated proposition. Thus, it is either true or false. The simple fact is, either God exists or He does not. There is no middle ground. One cannot affirm logically both the existence and nonexistence of God. The atheist boldly states that God does not exist; the theist affirms just as boldly that God does exist; the agnostic laments that there is not enough evidence to make a decision on the matter; and the skeptic doubts that God’s existence can be proven with certainty. Who is correct? Does God exist or not?
    The only way to answer this question, of course, is to seek out and examine the evidence. It certainly is reasonable to suggest that if there is a God, He would make available to us evidence adequate to the task of proving His existence. But does such evidence exist? And if it does, what is the nature of that evidence?
    The theist advocates the view that evidence is available to prove conclusively that God does exist, and that this evidence is adequate to establish beyond reasonable doubt the existence of God. However, when we employ the word “prove,” we do not mean that God’s existence can be demonstrated scientifically in the same fashion that one might prove that a sack of potatoes weighs ten pounds, or that a human heart has four distinct chambers within it. Such matters as the weight of a sack of vegetables, or the divisions within a muscle, are matters that may be verified empirically using the five senses. And while empirical evidence often is quite useful in establishing the validity of a case, it is not the sole means of arriving at proof. For example, legal authorities recognize the validity of a prima facie case, which is acknowledged to exist when adequate evidence is available to establish the presumption of a fact that, unless such fact can be refuted, legally stands proven (see Jackson, 1974, p. 13). It is the contention of the theist that there is a vast body of evidence that makes an impregnable prima facie case for the existence of God—a case that simply cannot be refuted. I would like to present here the prima facie case for the existence of God, and a portion of the evidence upon which that case is based.
    CAUSE AND EFFECT—THE COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
    Throughout human history, one of the most effective arguments for the existence of God has been the cosmological argument, which addresses the fact that the Universe (Cosmos) is here and therefore must be explained in some fashion. In his book, Not A Chance, R.C. Sproul observed:
    Traditional philosophy argued for the existence of God on the foundation of the law of causality. The cosmological argument went from the presence of a cosmos back to a creator of the cosmos. It sought a rational answer to the question, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” It sought a sufficient reason for a real world (1994, p. 169, emp. in orig.).
    The Universe exists and is real. Atheists and agnostics not only acknowledge its existence, but admit that it is a grand effect (e.g., see Jastrow, 1977, pp. 19-21). If an entity cannot account for its own being (i.e., it is not sufficient to have caused itself), then it is said to be “contingent” because it is dependent upon something outside of itself to explain its existence. The Universe is a contingent entity, since it is inadequate to cause, or explain, its own existence. Sproul has noted: “Logic requires that if something exists contingently, it must have a cause. That is merely to say, if it is an effect it must have an antecedent cause” (1994, p. 172). Thus, since the Universe is a contingent effect, the obvious question becomes, “What caused the Universe?”
    It is here that the law of cause and effect (also known as the law of causality) is strongly tied to the cosmological argument. Simply put, the law of causality states that every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause. Just as the law of the excluded middle is analytically true, so the law of cause and effect is analytically true as well. Sproul addressed this when he wrote:
    The statement “Every effect has an antecedent cause” is analytically true. To say that it is analytically or formally true is to say that it is true by definition or analysis. There is nothing in the predicate that is not already contained by resistless logic in the subject. It is like the statement, “A bachelor is an unmarried man” or “A triangle has three sides” or “Two plus two are four….” Cause and effect, though distinct ideas, are inseparably bound together in rational discourse. It is meaningless to say that something is a cause if it yields no effect. It is likewise meaningless to say that something is an effect if it has no cause. A cause, by definition, must have an effect, or it is not a cause. An effect, by definition, must have a cause, or it is not an effect (1994, pp. 172,171 emp. in orig.).
    Effects without adequate causes are unknown. Further, causes never occur subsequent to the effect. It is meaningless to speak of a cause following an effect, or an effect preceding a cause. In addition, the effect is never qualitatively superior to, or quantitatively greater than, the cause. This knowledge is responsible for our formulation of the law of causality in these words: Every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause. The river did not turn muddy because the frog jumped in; the book did not fall from the table because the fly lighted on it. These are not adequate causes. For whatever effects we observe, we must postulate adequate antecedent causes—which brings us back to the original question: What caused the Universe?
    There are but three possible answers to this question: (1) the Universe is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist; (2) the Universe is not eternal; rather, it created itself out of nothing; (3) the Universe is not eternal, and did not create itself out of nothing; rather, it was created by something (or Someone) anterior, and superior, to itself. These three options merit serious consideration.
    Is the Universe Eternal?
    The most comfortable position for the person who does not believe in God is the idea that the Universe is eternal, because it avoids the problem of a beginning or ending, and thus the need for any “first cause” such as God. In fact, it was to avoid just such a problem that evolutionists Thomas Gold, Hermann Bondi, and Fred Hoyle developed the Steady State Theory. Information had come to light that indicated the Universe was expanding. These scientists suggested that at points in space called “irtrons” hydrogen was coming into existence from nothing. As hydrogen atoms arrived, they had to “go” somewhere, and as they did, they displaced matter already in existence, causing the Universe to expand. Dr. Hoyle suggested that the atoms of gaseous hydrogen gradually condensed into clouds of virgin matter, that within these clouds new stars and galaxies formed, etc.
    However, the Steady State Theory was doomed to failure, in part, because it violated one of the most fundamental laws of science—the first law of thermodynamics (also referred to as the law of the conservation of matter and/or energy), which states that neither matter nor energy may be created or destroyed in nature. Astronomer Robert Jastrow observed:
    But the creation of matter out of nothing would violate a cherished concept in science—the principle of the conservation of matter and energy—which states that matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa, but the total amount of all matter and energy in the Universe must remain unchanged forever. It is difficult to accept a theory that violates such a firmly established scientific fact (1977, p. 32).
    The Steady State Theory eventually was relegated to the relic heaps of history. Yet problems for those who advocated an eternal Universe continued to multiply because such a concept violated the second law of thermodynamics as well. Simply stated, the second law of thermodynamics dictates that as energy is employed to perform work, it is transformed from a usable to a nonusable form. The Universe is “running down” because energy is becoming less available for use. As Jastrow has remarked:
    And concurrently there was a great deal of discussion about the fact that the second law of thermodynamics, applied to the Cosmos, indicates that the Universe is running down like a clock. If it is running down, there must have been a time when it was fully wound up. Arthur Eddington, the most distinguished astronomer of his day, wrote: “If our views are right, somewhere between the beginning of time and the present day we must place the winding up of the universe.” When that occurred, and Who or what wound up the Universe, were questions that bemused theologians, physicists and astronomers, particularly in the 1920’s and 1930’s (1978, pp. 48-49).
    A year before making that admission, Dr. Jastrow made another important concession when he wrote:
    Only as a result of the most recent discoveries can we say with a fair degree of confidence that the world has not existed forever;… The lingering decline predicted by astronomers for the end of the world differs from the explosive conditions they have calculated for its birth, but the impact is the same; modern science denies an eternal existence to the Universe, either in the past or in the future (1977, pp. 19,30, emp. added).
    The scientific evidence states clearly that the Universe had a beginning—something eternal things do not have. Nor do eternal things “run down,” yet clearly the Universe is doing just that, as Dr. Jastrow has noted. As Henry Morris has commented, “The Second Law requires the universe to have had a beginning” (1974, p. 26). Indeed, it does. The Universe is now known not to be eternal.
    Did the Universe Create Itself Out of Nothing?
    In the past, it would have been practically impossible to find any reputable scientist who would be willing to advocate a self-created Universe. George Davis, a prominent physicist of the past generation, explained why when he wrote: “No material thing can create itself.” Further, Dr. Davis affirmed that this statement “cannot be logically attacked on the basis of any knowledge available to us” (1958, p. 71). The Universe is the created, not the creator.
    However, as surprising as it may seem, some in the scientific and philosophical communities have stepped forward to defend the option that the Universe simply created itself out of nothing. Edward P. Tryon, professor of physics at the City University of New York, wrote for example: “In 1973, I proposed that our Universe had been created spontaneously from nothing, as a result of established principles of physics. This proposal variously struck people as preposterous, enchanting, or both” (1984, p. 14). But the real push for the acceptance of a self-created Universe came as a result of an article published in the May 1984 issue of Scientific American. Under the title of “The Inflationary Universe,” evolutionists Alan Guth and Paul Steinhardt wrote:
    From a historical point of view, probably the most revolutionary aspect of the inflationary model is the notion that all the matter and energy in the observable universe may have emerged from almost nothing… The inflationary model of the universe provides a possible mechanism by which the observed universe could have evolved from an infinitesimal region. It is then tempting to go one step further and speculate that the entire Universe evolved from literally nothing (1984, p. 128, emp. added).
    Such ideas as those set forth by Tryon, Guth, Steinhardt, and others have set off a wave of controversy within the scientific community, as is evident from heated discussions at annual scientific meetings, articles published in refereed scientific journals, books written on a scholarly level, and even items appearing in popular science magazines. For example, in the summer 1994 edition of the Skeptical Inquirer, Ralph Estling of Great Britain wrote a stinging rebuke of the idea that the Universe created itself out of nothing. Estling suggested:
    The problem emerges in science when scientists leave the realm of science and enter that of philosophy and metaphysics, too often grandiose names for mere personal opinion, untrammeled by empirical evidence or logical analysis, and wearing the mask of deep wisdom. And so they conjure us an entire Cosmos, or myriads of cosmoses, suddenly, inexplicably, causelessly leaping into being out of—out of Nothing Whatsoever, for no reason at all, and thereafter expanding faster than light into more Nothing Whatsoever… They then intone equations and other ritual mathematical formulae and look upon it and pronounce it good. I do not think that what these cosmologists, these quantum theorists, these universe-makers, are doing is science. I can’t help feeling that universes are notoriously disinclined to spring into being, ready-made, out of nothing (1994, 18[4]:430).
    Estling’s article provoked numerous letters to the editor of the Skeptical Inquirer, which were printed, with Estling’s response, in the January/February 1995 issue. Estling wrote, in part: “All things begin with speculation, science not excluded. But if no empirical evidence is eventually forthcoming, or can be forthcoming, all speculation is barren…. There is no evidence, so far, that the entire universe, observable and unobservable, emerged from a state of absolute Nothingness” (1995, 19[1]:69-70).
    Estling is correct, of course. There is no evidence that would allow matter or energy simply to “pop into existence” of its own accord. This suggestion is in clear violation of the first law of thermodynamics. Furthermore, to suggest that the Universe created itself is to posit a self-contradictory position. Sproul addressed this when he wrote that what an atheist or agnostic
    …deems possible for the world to do—come into being without a cause—is something no judicious philosopher would grant that even God could do. It is as formally and rationally impossible for God to come into being without a cause as it is for the world to do so… For something to bring itself into being it must have the power of being within itself. It must at least have enough causal power to cause its own being. If it derives its being from some other source, then it clearly would not be either self-existent or self-created. It would be, plainly and simply, an effect. Of course, the problem is complicated by the other necessity we’ve labored so painstakingly to establish: It would have to have the causal power of being before it was. It would have to have the power of being before it had any being with which to exercise that power (1994, pp. 179,180).
    Science is based on observation and reproducibility. But when pressed for the reproducible, empirical data that document their claim of a self-created Universe, scientists and philosophers are at a loss to produce those data. Perhaps this is why Alan Guth lamented: “In the end, I must admit that questions of plausibility are not logically determinable and depend somewhat on intuition” (1988, 11[2]:76)—which is little more than a fancy way of saying, “I certainly wish this were true, but I could not prove it to you if my life depended on it.”
    The eminent British astrophysicist, Stephen Hawking, put the matter in perspective when he wrote: “The new inflationary model is now dead as a scientific theory, although a lot of people do not seem to have heard of its demise and are still writing papers on it as if it were viable” (1988, p. 132, emp. added). The Universe did not create itself. Such an idea is absurd, philosophically and scientifically.
    Was the Universe Created?
    Either the Universe had a beginning, or it did not. But all available evidence indicates that the Universe did have a beginning. If the Universe had a beginning, it either had a cause or it did not. One thing we know assuredly, however: it is correct—logically and scientifically—to acknowledge that the Universe had a cause, because the Universe is an effect, and requires an adequate antecedent cause. Nothing causeless happens.
    Since it is apparent that the Universe it not eternal, and since likewise it is apparent that the Universe could not have created itself, the only remaining alternative is that the Universe was created by something, or Someone, that: (a) existed before it, i.e., some eternal, uncaused First Cause; (b) is superior to it—since the created cannot be superior to the creator; and © is of a different nature, since the finite, contingent Universe of matter is unable to explain itself (see Jackson and Carroll, n.d., 2:98-154).
    In connection with this, another important fact should be considered. If there ever had been a time when nothing existed, then there would be nothing now. It is a self-evident truth that nothing produces nothing. In view of this, since something exists now, it must follow logically that something has existed forever. As Sproul has remarked:
    Indeed, reason demands that if something exists, either the world or God (or anything else), then something must be self-existent… There must be a self-existent being of some sort somewhere, or nothing would or could exist (1994, pp. 179,185 emp. in orig.).
    Everything that exists can be classified as either matter (which includes energy), or mind. There is no third alternative. The theist’s argument, then, is this:

    1. Everything that exists is either matter or mind.
    2. Something exists now, so something eternal must exist.
    3. Therefore, either matter or mind is eternal.
      A. Either matter or mind is eternal.
      B. Matter is not eternal, per the evidence cited above.
      C. Thus, it is mind that is eternal.
      In the past, atheists suggested that the mind is nothing more than a function of the brain, which is matter; thus the mind and the brain are the same, and matter is all that exists. However, that viewpoint is no longer intellectually credible, as a result of the scientific experiments of British neurologist, Sir John Eccles. Dr. Eccles won the Nobel Prize for distinguishing that the mind is more than merely physical. He showed that the supplementary motor area of the brain may be fired by mere intention to do something, without the motor cortex of the brain (which controls muscle movements) operating. In effect, the mind is to the brain what a librarian is to a library. The former is not reducible to the latter. Eccles explained his methodology in The Self and Its Brain, co-authored with the renowned philosopher of science, Sir Karl Popper (see Popper and Eccles, 1977). In a discussion centering on Dr. Eccles’ work, Norman Geisler discussed the concept of an eternal, all-knowing Mind.
      Further, this infinite cause of all that is must be all-knowing. It must be knowing because knowing beings exist. I am a knowing being, and I know it… But a cause can communicate to its effect only what it has to communicate. If the effect actually possesses some characteristic, then this characteristic is properly attributed to its cause. The cause cannot give what it does not have to give. If my mind or ability to know is received, then there must be Mind or Knower who gave it to me. The intellectual does not arise from the nonintellectual; something cannot arise from nothing (1976, p. 247).
      From evidence such as that presented here, Robert Jastrow (an agnostic, by his own admission) was forced to conclude: “That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact” (1982, p. 18). The evidence speaks clearly regarding the existence of a non-contingent, eternal, self-existent Mind that created this Universe and everything within it.
      CONCLUSION
      The law of cause and effect, and the cosmological argument based upon that law, have serious implications in every field of human endeavor. The Universe is here, and must have an adequate antecedent cause. In addressing this problem, R.L. Wysong commented:
      Everyone concludes naturally and comfortably that highly ordered and designed items (machines, houses, etc.) owe existence to a designer. It is unnatural to conclude otherwise. But evolution asks us to break stride from what is natural to believe and then believe in that which is unnatural, unreasonable, and…unbelievable… The basis for this departure from what is natural and reasonable to believe is not fact, observation, or experience but rather unreasonable extrapolations from abstract probabilities, mathematics, and philosophy (1976, p. 412, first ellipsis in orig.).
      Dr. Wysong then presented an interesting historical case to illustrate his point. Some years ago, scientists were called to Great Britain to study orderly patterns of concentric rocks and holes—a find designated as Stonehenge. As studies progressed, it became apparent that these patterns had been designed specifically to allow certain astronomical predictions. Many questions (e.g., how ancient peoples were able to construct an astronomical observatory, how the data derived from their studies were used, etc.) remain unsolved. But one thing is known—the cause of Stonehenge was intelligent design.
      Now, suggested Dr. Wysong, compare Stonehenge to the situation paralleling the origin of the Universe, and of life itself. We study life, observe its functions, contemplate its complexity (which defies duplication even by intelligent men with the most advanced methodology and technology), and what are we to conclude? Stonehenge might have been produced by the erosion of a mountain, or by catastrophic natural forces working in conjunction with meteorites to produce rock formations and concentric holes. But what scientist or philosopher ever would suggest such an idea?
      No one ever could be convinced that Stonehenge “just happened” by accident, yet atheists and agnostics expect us to believe that this highly ordered, well-designed Universe, and the complicated life it contains, “just happened.” To accept such an idea is, to use Dr. Wysong’s words, “to break stride from what is natural to believe” because the conclusion is unreasonable, unwarranted, and unsupported by the facts at hand. The cause simply is not adequate to produce the effect.
      The central message of the Cosmological Argument, and the law of cause and effect upon which it is based, is this: Every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause. The Universe is here; intelligent life is here; morality is here; love is here. What is their adequate antecedent cause? Since the effect never can precede, or be greater than the cause, it stands to reason that the Cause of life must be a living Intelligence that Itself is both moral and loving. When the Bible records, “In the beginning, God…,” it makes known to us just such a First Cause.

  • This is flawed from the start of the first paragraph. It automatically assumes a Monotheist God. An Agnostic does not always have to believe or not believe in Monotheism.


  • THE CASE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
    [PART II]

    by
    Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

    One of the laws of thought employed in the field of logic is the law of rationality, which states that one should accept as true only those conclusions for which there is adequate evidence. This is sensible, for accepting as true a conclusion for which there is no evidence, or inadequate evidence, would be irrational. In establishing the prima facie case for the existence of God, theists present—through logic, clear reasoning, and factual data—arguments adequate to justify the acceptance of the conclusion that God exists. The approach is intended to be positive in nature, and to establish a proposition for which adequate evidence is available.
    The evidence used to substantiate the theist’s proposition concerning God’s existence may take many forms. This should not be surprising since, if He does exist, God would be the greatest of all realities. His existence, therefore, could be extrapolated not from just a single line of reasoning, but from numerous avenues. As one writer of the past suggested:
    The reality of such a Being can be firmly established only by concurrent reasons coming from various realms of existence, and approved by various powers of the human spirit. It is a conclusion that cannot be reached without the aid of arguments inadequate by themselves to so great a result, yet valid in their place, proving each some part of the great truth; proofs cumulative and complementary, each requiring others for its completion (Clarke, 1912, p. 104).
    The various arguments presented by theists, all combined, make an ironclad case for God’s existence. Where one particular argument fails to impress or convince an inquirer, another will avail. Considered cumulatively, the evidence is adequate to justify the intended conclusion. It is my purpose here to present and discuss additional evidence substantiating the proposition: God exists.
    DESIGN IN NATURE—THE TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
    In contending for the existence of God, theists often employ the Teleological Argument. “Teleology” has reference to purpose or design. Thus, this approach suggests that where there is purposeful design, there must be a designer. The deduction being made, of course, is that order, planning, and design in a system are indicative of intelligence, purpose, and specific intent on the part of the originating cause. In logical form, the theist’s argument may be presented as follows:

    1. If the Universe evinces purposeful design, there must have been a designer.
    2. The Universe does evince purposeful design.
    3. Thus, the Universe must have had a designer.
      This correct form of logical reasoning, and the implications that flow from it, have not escaped the attention of those who do not believe in God. Paul Ricci, an atheistic philosopher and professor, has written that “…it’s true that everything designed has a designer…” (1986, p. 190). In fact, Mr. Ricci even conceded that the statement, “ ‘Everything designed has a designer,’ is an analytically true statement” and thus requires no formal proof (p. 190). Apparently Mr. Ricci understands that one does not get a poem without a poet, a law without a lawgiver, a painting without a painter, or design without a designer.
      He is in good company among his disbelieving counterparts. For example, atheistic evolutionist Richard Lewontin made the following admission in an article he authored for Scientific American:
      Life forms are more than simply multiple and diverse, however. Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each organism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer (1978, 239[3]:213, emp. added).
      To be fair to both of these authors, and others like them, let me quickly point out that while they agree with the thrust of the theist’s argument (i.e., that design leads inevitably to a designer), they do not believe that there is evidence warranting the conclusion that a Supreme Designer exists, and they therefore have rejected any belief in God. Their disagreement with the theist would center on statement number two (the minor premise) in the above syllogism. While admitting that design demands a designer, they would deny that there is design in nature providing proof of the existence of a Great Designer.
      A good example of such a denial can be found in a book written by British evolutionist, Richard Dawkins. During the 1800s, William Paley employed his now-famous “watch argument.” Paley argued that if one were to discover a watch lying upon the ground, and were to examine it closely, the design inherent in the watch would be enough to force the conclusion that there must have been a watchmaker. Paley continued his line of argumentation to suggest that the design inherent in the Universe should be enough to force the conclusion that there must have been a Great Designer. In 1986, Dawkins published The Blind Watchmaker, which was intended to put to rest once and for all Paley’s argument. The dust jacket of Dawkins’ book made that point clear:
      There may be good reasons for belief in God, but the argument from design is not one of them…. [D]espite all appearances to the contrary, there is no watchmaker in nature beyond the blind forces of physics…. Natural selection, the unconscious, automatic, blind yet essentially nonrandom process that Darwin discovered, and that we now understand to be the explanation for the existence and form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind’s eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker (1986, emp. in orig.).
      The disagreement between the theist and atheist is not whether design demands a designer. Rather, the point of contention is whether or not there is design in nature adequate to substantiate the conclusion that a Designer does, in fact, exist. This is where the Teleological Argument is of benefit.
      Design of the Universe
      Our Universe operates in accordance with exact scientific laws. The precision of the Universe, and the exactness of these laws, allow scientists to launch rockets to the Moon, with the full knowledge that, upon their arrival, they can land within a few feet of their intended target. Such precision and exactness also allow astronomers to predict solar/lunar eclipses years in advance, or to determine when Halley’s Comet can be seen once again from the Earth. Science writer Lincoln Barnett once observed:
      This functional harmony of nature Berkeley, Descartes, and Spinoza attributed to God. Modern physicists who prefer to solve their problems without recourse to God (although this seems to be more difficult all the time) emphasize that nature mysteriously operates on mathematical principles. It is the mathematical orthodoxy of the Universe that enables theorists like Einstein to predict and discover natural laws, simply by the solution of equations (1959, p. 22).
      The precision, complexity, and orderliness within the Universe are not in dispute; writers such as Ricci, Dawkins, and Lewontin acknowledge as much. But while atheists willingly concede complexity, and even order, they are not prepared to concede design because the implication of such a concession would demand a Designer. Is there evidence of design? The atheist claims no such evidence exists. The theist, however, affirms that it does, and offers the following information in support of that affirmation.
      We live in a tremendously large Universe. While its outer limits have not been measured, it is estimated to be as much as 20 billion light years in diameter (i.e., the distance it would take light to travel across the Universe at a speed of over 186,000 miles per second; see Lawton, 1981, 89[1]:105). There are an estimated one billion galaxies in the Universe (Lawton, 1981, 89[1]:98), and an estimated 25 sextillion stars. The Milky Way galaxy in which we live contains over 100 billion stars, and is so large that even traveling at the speed of light would require 100,000 years to cross its diameter. Light travels in one year approximately 5.87 x 1012 miles; in 100,000 years, that would be 5.87 x 1017 miles, or 587 quadrillion miles just to cross the diameter of a single galaxy. If we drew a map of the Milky Way galaxy, and represented the Earth and Sun as two dots one inch apart (thus a scale of one inch equals 93 million miles—the distance between the Earth and the Sun), we would need a map at least four miles wide to locate the next nearest star, and a map 25,000 miles wide to reach the center of our galaxy. Without doubt, this is a rather impressive Universe.
      Yet while the size itself is impressive, the inherent design is even more so. The Sun’s interior temperature is estimated to be over 20 million degrees Celsius (Lawton, 1981, 89[1]:102). The Earth, however, is located at exactly the correct distance from the Sun to receive the proper amount of heat and radiation to sustain life as we know it. If the Earth were moved just 10% closer to the Sun (about 10 million miles), far too much heat and radiation would be absorbed. If the Earth were moved just 10% further from the Sun, too little heat would be absorbed. Either scenario would spell doom for life on the Earth.
      The Earth is rotating on its axis at 1,000 miles per hour at the equator, and moving around the Sun at 70,000 miles per hour (approximately 19 miles per second), while the Sun and its solar system are moving through space at 600,000 miles per hour in an orbit so large it would take over 220 million years just to complete a single orbit. Interestingly, however, as the Earth moves in its orbit around the Sun, it departs from a straight line by only one-ninth of an inch every eighteen miles. If it departed by one-eighth of an inch, we would come so close to the Sun that we would be incinerated; if it departed by one-tenth of an inch, we would find ourselves so far from the Sun that we would all freeze to death (Science Digest, 1981, 89[1]:124). The Earth is poised some 240,000 miles from the Moon, whose gravitational pull produces ocean tides. If the Moon were moved closer to the Earth by just a fifth, the tides would be so enormous that twice a day they would reach 35-50 feet high over most of the Earth’s surface.
      What would happen if the rotation rate of the Earth were halved, or doubled? If it were halved, the seasons would be doubled in their length, which would cause such harsh heat and cold over much of the Earth that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to grow enough food to feed the Earth’s population. If the rotation rate were doubled, the length of each season would be halved, and it would be difficult or impossible to grow enough food to feed the Earth’s population. The Earth is tilted on its axis at exactly 23.5 degrees. Were that tilt to be reduced to zero, much of the Earth’s water would accumulate around the two poles, leaving vast deserts in its place. If the atmosphere surrounding the Earth were much thinner, meteorites could strike our planet with greater force and frequency, causing worldwide devastation.
      The oceans provide a huge reservoir of moisture that constantly is evaporating and condensing, thus falling upon the land as refreshing rain. It is a well-known fact that water heats and cools at a much slower rate than a solid land mass, which explains why desert regions can be blistering hot in the daytime and freezing cold at night. Water, however, holds its temperature longer, and provides a sort of natural heating/air-conditioning system for the land areas of the Earth. Temperature extremes would be much more erratic than they are, were it not for the fact that approximately four-fifths of the Earth is covered with water. In addition, humans and animals inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. On the other hand, plants take in carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. We depend upon the world of botany for our oxygen supply, but often fail to realize that approximately 90% of our oxygen comes from microscopic plants in the seas (see Asimov, 1975, 2:116). If our oceans were appreciably smaller, we soon would be out of air to breathe.
      Can a person reasonably be expected to believe that these exacting requirements for life as we know it have been met “just by accident”? The Earth is exactly the right distance from the Sun; it is exactly the right distance from the Moon; it has exactly the right diameter; it has exactly the right atmospheric pressure; it has exactly the right tilt; it has exactly the right amount of oceanic water; it has exactly the right weight and mass; and so on. Were this many requirements to be met in any other essential area of life, the idea that they had been provided “just by accident” would be dismissed immediately as ludicrous. Yet atheists and agnostics suggest that the Universe, the Earth, and life on the Earth are all here as a result of fortuitous accidents. Physicist John Gribbin (1983), writing on the numerous specific requirements necessary for life on our planet, emphasized in great detail both the nature and essentiality of those requirements, yet curiously chose to title his article, “Earth’s Lucky Break”—as if all of the precision, orderliness, and intricate design in the Universe could be explained by postulating that the Earth simply received, in a roll of the cosmic dice, a “lucky break.”
      For more than a decade and a half, British evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle has stressed the insurmountable problems with such thinking, and has addressed specifically the many problems faced by those who defend the idea of a naturalistic origin of life on Earth. In fact, Dr. Hoyle described the atheistic concept that disorder gives rise to order in a rather picturesque manner when he observed that “the chance that higher forms have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein” (1981b, p. 105). Dr. Hoyle, even went so far as to draw the following conclusion:
      Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly miniscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends, are in every respect deliberate…. It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect in a valid way the higher intelligences…even to the extreme idealized limit of God (Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, 1981, pp. 141,144, emp. in orig.).
      Atheist Richard Dawkins was forced to admit: “The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer” (1982, p. 130, emp. added). That is the very conclusion theists have drawn from the available evidence—in keeping with the law of rationality. The statistical improbability of the Universe “just happening by blind chance” is staggering. The only alternative is an Intelligent Designer—God.
      Design of the Human Body
      Many years ago, the ancient scholar Augustine observed: “Men go abroad to wonder at the height of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars; and they pass by themselves without wondering.” Indeed, while we stand in amazement at so many stunning scenes from our unique Universe, we often fail to stand equally amazed at the marvelous creation of man. According to those who do not believe in God, the human body is little more than the result of a set of fortuitous circumstances credited to that mythical lady, “Mother Nature.” Yet such a suggestion does not fit the actual facts of the case, as even evolutionists have been forced to recognize from time to time. The late George Gaylord Simpson of Harvard once suggested that in man one finds “the most highly endowed organization of matter that has yet appeared on the earth…” (1949, p. 293). Another evolutionist observed:
      When you come right down to it, the most incredible creation in the universe is you—with your fantastic senses and strengths, your ingenious defense systems, and mental capabilities so great you can never use them to the fullest. Your body is a structural masterpiece more amazing than science fiction (Guinness, 1987, p. 5).
      Can one reasonably be expected to conclude that the “structural masterpiece” of the human body—with its “ingenious” systems and “highly endowed organization”—is the result of blind chance operating over eons of time in nature as atheism suggests? Or would it be more in keeping with the facts of the matter to suggest that the human body is the result of purposeful design by a Master Designer?
      For organizational purposes, the human body may be considered at four different levels (see Jackson, 1993, pp. 5-6). First, there are cells, representing the smallest unit of life. Second, there are tissues (muscle tissue, nerve tissue, etc.), which are groups of the same kind of cells carrying on the same kind of activity. Third, there are organs (heart, liver, etc.), which are groups of tissues working together in unison. Fourth, there are systems (reproductive system, circulatory system, etc.), which are composed of groups of organs carrying out specific bodily functions. While we will not have the space in this article to examine each of them, an investigation of these various levels of organization, and of the human body as a whole, leads inescapably to the conclusion that there is intelligent design at work. As Wayne Jackson noted: “It is therefore quite clear…that the physical body has been marvelously designed and intricately organized, for the purpose of facilitating human existence upon the planet Earth” (1993, p. 6). In light of the following facts, such a statement is certainly justified.
      A human body is composed of over 30 different kinds of cells (red blood cells, white blood cells, nerve cells, etc.), totalling approximately 100 trillion cells in an average adult (Beck, 1971, p. 189). These cells come in a variety of sizes and shapes, with different functions and life expectancies. For example, some cells (e.g., male spermatazoa) are so small that 20,000 would fit inside a capital “O” from a standard typewriter, each being only 0.05 mm long. Some cells, placed end-to-end, would make only one inch if 6,000 were assembled together. Yet all the cells of the human body, if set end-to-end, would encircle the Earth over 200 times. Even the largest cell of the human body, the female ovum, is unbelievably small, being only 0.01 of an inch in diameter. Cells have three major components. First, each cell is composed of a cell membrane that encloses the organism. Second, inside the cell is a three-dimensional cytoplasm—a watery matrix containing specialized organelles. Third, within the cytoplasm is the nucleus, which contains most of the genetic material and serves as the control center of the cell.
      The lipoprotein cell membrane (lipids/proteins/lipids) is approximately 0.06-0.08 of a micrometer thick, yet allows selective transport into, and out of, the cell. Evolutionist Ernest Borek has observed: “The membrane recognizes with its uncanny molecular memory the hundreds of compounds swimming around it and permits or denies passage according to the cell’s requirements” (1973, p. 5).
      Inside the cytoplasm, there are over 20 different chemical reactions occurring at any one time, with each cell containing five major components for: (1) communication; (2) waste disposal; (3) nutrition; (4) repair; and (5) reproduction. Within this watery matrix there are such organelles as the mitochondria (over 1,000 per cell in many instances) that provide the cell with its energy. The endoplasmic reticulum is “believed to be a transport system designed to carry materials from one part of the cell to the other” (Pfeiffer, 1964, p. 13). Ribosomes are miniature protein-producing factories. Golgi bodies store the proteins manufactured by the ribosomes. Lysozomes within the cytoplasm function as garbage disposal units.
      The nucleus is the control center of the cell, and is separated from the cytoplasm by a nuclear membrane. Within the nucleus is the genetic machinery of the cell (chromosomes and genes containing deoxyribonucleic acid—DNA). The DNA is a supermolecule that carries the coded information for the replication of the cell. If the DNA from a single human cell were removed from the nucleus and unraveled (it is found in the cell in a spiral configuration), it would be approximately six feet long, and would contain over a billion biochemical steps. It has been estimated that if all the DNA in an adult human were placed end-to-end, it would reach to the Sun and back (186 million miles) 400 times.
      It should also be noted that the DNA molecule does something that we as humans have yet to accomplish: it stores coded information in a chemical format, and then uses a biologic agent (RNA) to decode and activate it. As Darrel Kautz has stated: “Human technology has not yet advanced to the point of storing information chemically as it is in the DNA molecule” (1988, p. 45, emp. in orig.; see also Jackson, 1993, pp. 11-12). If transcribed into English, the DNA in a single human cell would fill a 1,000 volume set of encyclopedias approximately 600 pages each (Gore, 1976, p. 357). Yet just as amazing is the fact that all the genetic information needed to reproduce the entire human population (about five billion people) could be placed into a space of about one-eighth of a square inch. In comparing the amount of information contained in the DNA molecule with a much larger computer microchip, evolutionist Irvin Block remarked: “We marvel at the feats of memory and transcription accomplished by computer microchips, but these are gargantuan compared to the protein granules of deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA” (1980, p. 52). In an article he authored for Encyclopaedia Britannica, Carl Sagan observed that “The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 1012 bits [i.e., one trillion—BT]…” (1974, 10:894). To emphasize to the reader the enormity of this figure, Dr. Sagan then noted that if one were to count every letter in every word of every book in the world’s largest library (over ten million volumes), the final tally would be approximately a trillion letters. Thus, a single cell contains the equivalent information content of every book in the world’s largest library of more than ten million volumes! Every rational person recognizes that not one of the books in such a library “just happened.” Rather, each and every one is the result of intelligence and painstaking design.
      What, then, may we say about the infinitely more complex genetic code found within the DNA in each cell? Sir Fred Hoyle concluded that the notion that the code’s complexity could be arrived at by chance is “nonsense of a high order” (1981a, p. 527). In their classic text on the origin of life, Thaxton, Bradley, and Olsen addressed the implications of the genetic code found within the DNA molecule.
      We know that in numerous cases certain effects always have intelligent causes, such as dictionaries, sculptures, machines and paintings. We reason by analogy that similar effects have intelligent causes. For example, after looking up to see “BUY FORD” spelled out in smoke across the sky we infer the presence of a skywriter even if heard or saw no airplane. We would similarly conclude the presence of intelligent activity were we to come upon an elephant-shaped topiary in a cedar forest.
      In like manner an intelligible communication via radio signal from some distant galaxy would be widely hailed as evidence of an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the message sequence on the DNA molecule also constitute prima facie evidence for an intelligent source? After all, DNA information is not just analogous to a message sequence such as Morse code, it is such a message sequence…
      We believe that if this question is considered, it will be seen that most often it is answered in the negative simply because it is thought to be inappropriate to bring a Creator into science (1984, pp. 211-212, emp. in orig.).
      The complexity and intricacy of the DNA molecule—combined with the staggering amount of chemically-coded information it contains—speak unerringly to the fact that this “supermolecule” simply could not have happened by blind chance. As Andrews has observed:
      It is not possible for a code, of any kind, to arise by chance or accident… A code is the work of an intelligent mind. Even the cleverest dog or chimpanzee could not work out a code of any kind. It is obvious then that chance cannot do it… This could no more have been the work of chance or accident than could the “Moonlight Sonata” be played by mice running up and down the keyboard of my piano! Codes do not arise from chaos (1978, pp. 28-29).
      Indeed, codes do not arise from chaos. As Dawkins correctly remarked: “The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer” (1982, p. 130, emp. added). That is the exact point the theist is making: an intelligent Designer is demanded by the evidence.
      CONCLUSION
      Atheistic philosopher, Paul Ricci, has suggested that “Although many have difficulty understanding the tremendous order and complexity of functions of the human body (the eye, for example), there is no obvious designer” (1986, p. 191, emp. added). The only people who “have difficulty understanding the tremendous order and complexity” found in the Universe are those who have “refused to have God in their knowledge” (Romans 1:28). Such people can parrot the phrase that “there is no obvious designer,” but their arguments are not convincing. One does not get a poem without a poet, or a law without a lawgiver. One does not get a painting without a painter, or a musical score without a composer. And just as surely, one does not get purposeful design without a designer. The design inherent in the Universe is evident—from the macrocosm to the microcosm—and is sufficient to draw the conclusion demanded by the evidence, in keeping with the law of rationality. God does exist.

  • THE CASE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
    [PART III]

    by
    Wayne Jackson, M.A.

    All rational people are concerned, to a greater or lesser degree, about human moral and ethical conduct. How we act, and are acted upon, with respect to our fellow man determines the progress and happiness of mankind and, ultimately, contributes in one form or another to human destiny. The existence of, and need for, morality and ethics are self-evident. No sane person would ever argue that absolutely anything goes. The expressions “ought” and “ought not” are as much a part of the atheist’s vocabulary as anyone else’s. While it is true that a person may become so insensitive that he abandons virtually all of his personal ethical obligations, he never will ignore the lack of such in those who would abuse him.
    So far as creatures of the Earth are concerned, morality is uniquely a human trait, as even unbelievers concede. For example, although evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson argued that “man is the result of a purposeless and materialistic process that did not have him in mind,” he admitted that “good and evil, right and wrong, concepts irrelevant in nature except from the human viewpoint, become real and pressing features of the whole cosmos as viewed morally because morals arise only in man” (1951, p. 179, emp. added). Animals do not operate according to any ethical code. A dog feels no pangs of conscience when it steals a bone from one of its peers; a cock knows no remorse when mortally wounding another. Men, however, acknowledge the existence of morality and ethics.
    Since it is universally evident that morals and ethics do exist, the question becomes: What is their origin? There are but two options. Morality and ethics are either: theocentric—that is, centered in an external source of eternal goodness, namely, God; or anthropocentric—that is, grounded in the mind of man as a creature that evolved naturally as a result of inanimate forces operating over eons of cosmic and geologic time (see Geisler and Corduan, 1988, pp. 109-122).
    How does atheism explain the origin of morality? Since the unbeliever does not accept that there is an eternal Mind with which goodness is coexistent (i.e., an intrinsically moral Being), obviously he must contend that somehow raw, eternal, inorganic matter was able, by means of an extended evolutionary process, to concoct, promote, and maintain morality. Such a theory is self-defeating for two reasons. First, it wrongly assumes that man, with that evolved mass of cerebral tissue between his ears, somehow is capable of discovering “moral truth.” Why should he be? Charles Darwin declared that “there is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties” (as quoted in Francis Darwin, 1889, 1:64). Since no other animal on the long, meandering evolutionary chain can locate and live by “moral truth,” should we then be expected to trust a “naked ape” (to use evolutionary zoologist Desmond Morris’ colorful expression) to formulate ethics? Darwin himself opined: “Can the mind of man, which has, as I fully believe, been developed from a mind as low as that possessed by the lowest animals, be trusted when it draws such grand conclusions?” (as quoted in Francis Darwin, 1889, 1:282).
    Second, it should be clear that “raw matter” is impotent to evolve any sense of moral consciousness. Simpson inadvertently conceded this point when he wrote:
    Discovery that the universe apart from man or before his coming lacks and lacked any purpose or plan has the inevitable corollary that the workings of the universe cannot provide any automatic, universal, eternal, or absolute ethical criteria of right and wrong (1951, p. 180).
    Unbelief therefore must contend, and does contend, that there is no ultimate standard of moral/ethical truth, and that morality and ethics are, at best, relative and situational. Thus, if morality is man-authorized, hence, man-centered, it is utterly impossible to argue for any singular system of ethics to which one could consistently urge his fellows to subscribe. Rather, billions of ethical systems would exist—as many as there are people—each frequently at variance with many of the others, yet, oddly, each equally valid. Who could ever charge correctly that someone else’s conduct was “wrong,” or that a man “ought” or “ought not” to do thus and so? The simple fact of the matter is that infidelity cannot reasonably explain the origin of morality and ethics. These concepts can be explained adequately only by appealing to the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God.
    MORALITY AND ETHICS—THE ANTHROPOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
    An examination into the existence of morality and ethics provides yet another link in the chain of logical thought that establishes the case for the existence of God. The evidence often is discussed by means of what is referred to as the anthropological, or moral, argument for God’s existence. Morality is the character of being in accord with the principles or standards of right conduct. Ethics generally is viewed as the system or code by which attitudes and actions are determined to be either right or wrong. Ethics sometimes is defined as the justification of criteria by which one human life can be judged to be better or worse than another (see Henry, 1973, p. 220). Morality and ethics, then, assert that there exists a differentiation between right and wrong, and between good and evil. Moreover, by implication, there must be an appeal to some ultimate standard by which these character traits can be distinguished. The purpose of morality and ethics is inseparably connected with the purpose of life itself.
    If there is no purpose in the Universe, as Simpson and others have asserted, then actually there is no purpose to morality or ethics. But the concept of a purposeless morality, or a purposeless ethic, does not make sense, and so men have sought to read some meaning, as far-fetched as it may be, into the natural human inclination to recognize the need for morality. Let us give brief attention to several of the theories that propose to explain the function of human ethics.
    Hedonism
    Hedonism is the philosophy which argues that the aim of moral conduct is the attainment of the greatest possible pleasure with the greatest possible avoidance of pain. That is to say, the single moral criterion is the preponderance of pleasure over pain. A phase of hedonism, known as psychological hedonism, contends that one can act only in this manner. But if that is the case, how could one’s actions be considered as “moral” in such circumstances? A man hardly can be viewed as moral for doing that which he cannot help doing.
    Hedonism, however, is woefully inconsistent, and its advocates rarely, if ever, will stay with its logical conclusions. What if one, in the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain, must inflict pain upon others in order to achieve the goal? In other words, what if one must act immorally in order to practice his “morality”? What is there about hedonism that would motivate a person to forego his own pleasure in the interest of others? Absolutely nothing! Renowned British agnostic Bertrand Russell frustratingly wrote:
    We feel that the man who brings widespread happiness at the expense of misery to himself is a better man than the man who brings unhappiness to others and happiness to himself. I do not know of any rational ground for this view, or, perhaps, for the somewhat more rational view that whatever the majority desires [called utilitarian hedonism—WJ] is preferable to what the minority desires. These are truly ethical problems but I do not know of any way in which they can be solved except by politics or war. All that I can find to say on this subject is that an ethical opinion can only be defended by an ethical axiom, but, if the axiom is not accepted, there is no way of reaching a rational conclusion (1969, 3:29, emp. added).
    But what if a person is simply an egotistical hedonist and thus announces, “I care not at all for others; I intend to live my life solely for my own pleasure with no consideration for others, save when such is in my own interest.” But someone doubtlessly would be tempted to respond, “That is so selfish.” So, what is wrong with selfishness if it brings pleasure to the committed hedonist? Some are willing to actually go to that extreme. Atheistic philosopher Ayn Rand even authored a book titled The Virtue of Selfishness—A New Concept of Egoism, defending the concept of hedonistic selfishness. Yet who would want to live in such a society?
    Utilitarianism
    Utilitarianism, advocated by Jeremy Bentham, J.S. Mill, and others, is built upon the foundation of hedonism, and argues that “good” is that which gives pleasure to the greatest number of people. Again, however, the theory is seriously flawed for several reasons. First, it cannot answer the vital query: If pleasure to the greatest number of people prevents a man from achieving his own personal pleasure, what is there to motivate him toward the pleasure of the many? Second, utilitarianism provides no guideline to determine what the “pleasure” (genuine happiness) of the many actually is. Third, it is the philosophy that stands behind, and is perfectly consistent with, numerous atrocities perpetrated in the alleged interest of humanity. When Hitler slaughtered countless millions, and bred people like animals in behalf of evolving his master race, he felt he was operating in the genuine interest of mankind as a whole. The principle is: If some have to suffer in order for the ultimate good to be accomplished, so what? Of course, the leaders of such movements always are willing to step forward with their definition of what that “ultimate good” is!
    Finally, however, this idea cannot provide any rational reason as to why it would be “wrong” to ignore what is in the interest of the many and, instead, simply pursue one’s personal pleasure. There is an amazing commentary on this point in an interesting book, My Father Bertrand Russell, written by Russell’s daughter, Katherine Tait. Mrs. Tait was born in London in 1923, and was educated at her parents’ innovative school, Beacon Hill, which was dedicated to the promotion of atheistic humanism. In her fascinating volume, Mrs. Tait explained what it was like being the famous philosopher’s only daughter.
    For example, Bertrand Russell believed that a parent must teach his child “with its very first breath that it has entered into a moral world” (Tait, 1975, p. 59). Yet, as with all atheists and agnostics, he had a most difficult time explaining why, if man is merely the product of natural forces, children should be taught morality. Tait recalled that as a child she might say, in connection with some moral responsibility, “I don’t want to! Why should I?” A conventional parent, she observed, might reply, “Because I say so…, your father says so…, God says so…” Russell, however, would say to his children: “Because more people will be happy if you do than if you don’t.” “So what,” she would respond, “I don’t care about other people.” But her father would declare, “You should!” In her naive innocence, young Katherine would inquire, “But why?”—a question to which the redundant rejoinder would be, “Because more people will be happy if you do than if you don’t.” And, Tait noted, “We felt the heavy pressure of his rectitude and obeyed, but the reason was not convincing—neither to us nor to him” (Tait, 1975, pp. 184-185). Indeed, such specious reasoning will convince no one who thinks beyond the superficial level.
    MORALS/ETHICS AND THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
    The truth of the matter is that only the theocentric approach to morality can explain the purpose of life, and therefore provide adequate motivation for a genuinely ethical approach to life. Though proof of God’s existence is abundantly evident in the beautifully designed Universe, His character is made known only in His verbal communications (available to us in the biblical documents). Thus, the Bible declares that God is eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17), and that He is morally perfect. Not only is God holy (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), just and righteous (Psalm 89:14), and good (Psalms 100:6; 106:1), but in the ultimate sense, only God is good (Mark 10:18). Since the God of the Bible is perfect (Matthew 5:48), it is to be expected that all that proceeds from Him is initially good. Accordingly, that which He created was good (Genesis 1:31), and all that He does, commands, and approves is likewise good (Psalm 119:39,68).
    The “good,” therefore, is what God is; what He has commanded results from Who He is, and thus is likewise good. In the Old Testament, the prophet Micah declared of God: “He showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8). Similarly, in the New Testament Peter admonished: “As he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; because it is written, Ye shall be holy: for I am holy” (1 Peter 1:15).
    Moral sensitivity (i.e., the awareness that right and wrong do exist) has been implanted in the soul of man by virtue of his creation in the image of the God Who is eternally good. Though created upright, man, as a being of free willpower, fell from his lofty estate. Accordingly, God, by means of divine revelation, seeks to bring man back into harmony with Himself—a process that entails both religious and moral obligations.
    Biblical morality has several thrusts: (1) It is designed to develop within man right attitudes, or to state it another way, to instill a divine level of thinking; (2) Too, it is intended to help humanity translate spiritual attitudes into actions that will be helpful to all others; (3) Finally, the desired result is to guide man back into accord with the divine ideal, thus ensuring both his present and eternal happiness—to the glory of God.
    Additionally, we may note that biblical revelation provides a sufficient motive for moral conduct. Those who have not foolishly thrust God from their minds (Psalm 14:1) acknowledge that the creation testifies of Jehovah’s existence (Romans 1:20-21), and that His orderly Universe is evidence of His good and loving nature (Acts 14:17; James 1:17; I John 4:8). The love of God in providing Christ (John 3:16) for sinful man, and the love of Jesus in offering Himself to redeem us (Revelation 1:5; Philippians 2:5ff.), are motive aplenty for leading a moral life. We love, hence, obey Him (John 14:15) because He first loved us (I John 4:10-11,19). The Scriptures provide both purpose and motive for their ethical base, whereas unbelief has neither.
    OTHER CRITERIA FOR ESTABLISHING ETHICS
    All theories regarding morality assume some standard by which moral judgments are made. Whether that standard is “pleasure,” “majority opinion,” “survival,” etc., these theories all have one thing in common: they assume some sort of ethical “yardstick” by which conduct is measured. I now want to give brief attention to several of these proposed standards to see how they fare in the light of logical scrutiny.
    Nihilism
    Nihilism springs from the atheistic notion that since there is no God, there can be no rational justification for ethical norms. Advocates of this viewpoint have contended that nihilism is the condition which allows that “everything is permitted.” Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky, in his work, The Brothers Karamazov (1880), has one of his characters say that if God is dead, everything is allowed! French existential philosopher Jean Paul Sartre wrote:
    Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself… Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior (1961, p. 485).
    Sartre contended that whatever one chooses to do is right; value is attached to the choice itself so that “…we can never choose evil” (1966, p. 279). These men are correct about one thing. If there is no God, “anything goes.”
    The hypocrisy of this dogma, however, is revealed by the fact that the propagators of such an idea really mean that “everything is permitted” for them alone. They do not mean that the theft of their property, the rape of their wives, and the slitting of their throats is permitted!
    Relativism
    Moral relativism rejects the idea that there can be universal criteria for determining values. All value systems are thought to be culturally originated and conditioned, hence, all cultural ethical systems are equally valid. No moral system, it is claimed, can be said to be either true or false.
    Again, though, relativism falls of its own weaknesses, and its proponents will not stay with it. What if a particular culture, e.g., that of the “Bible Belt,” believes that ethics is absolute? Would the relativists yield to that? Perish the thought! In some cultures, infanticide has been (or is being) deemed a proper form of population control. Is that then “right”? What about slavery, or the abuse of women? Where is the relativist that will declare openly and publicly the morality of such practices?
    Situationism
    Situationism (commonly known as “situation ethics”) also repudiates the concept of any absolute system of values. For our present purpose, we may divide situationists into two classes—atheists and theists.
    The atheistic position perhaps is best expressed in the Humanist Manifestos I and II. Written in 1933 and 1973, respectively, and signed by such notables as John Dewey, Isaac Asimov, Francis Crick, Julian Huxley, Antony Flew, and others, they contain the following statements:
    We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous, and situational, needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human needs and interests. To deny this distorts the whole basis of life (Humanist Manifestos I and II, 1977, p. 17).
    A more contradictory and absurd position would be difficult to conceive. If one argues that ethics is situational, he is suggesting that an act cannot be judged by an absolute standard, and that its rightness or wrongness is dependent upon the situation. For example, it would be wrong to lie if that falsehood was hurtful to others; however, if the lie could be helpful, it is said, then it would be right. However, as previously indicated, morality is alleged to be autonomous. That word means “self law,” suggesting that every man is his own law. If that is the case, how could there ever be a situation in which a person could do wrong? Human ethical autonomy and situational morality are mutually exclusive.
    Then there is theistic situation ethics, most popularly expounded by Joseph Fletcher. Fletcher (1966, p. 55) claimed that situation ethics represents a sort of the middle-of-the-road position between the extremes of “antinomianism” (i.e., no ethical rules exist) and “legalism” (i.e., moral decisions may be made by appealing to a rule book, e.g., the Bible). For him, “love” was the sole factor in making moral judgments. It must be noted, though, that his “love” is purely subjective—each individual must decide for himself, in a given context, what the loving course is.
    The theory is fraught with insuperable logical difficulties. First, it affirms, “There are absolutely no absolutes.” “Are you sure,” we would ask? “Absolutely!” claims the situationist. Situation ethics claims there are no rules save the rule to love, yet by their own rules the situationists would define love. Second, God is removed from the throne as the moral Sovereign of the Universe, and man is enthroned in His place. Man, then, with his own subjective sense of “love,” makes all final moral judgments. Situationism thus ignores the biblical view that man is lacking in sufficient wisdom to guide his earthly activities (Jeremiah 10:23). Third, Fletcher’s situationism assumes a sort of omniscience in the application of his “love” principle. For example, the theory contends that lying, adultery, murder, etc., could be “moral” if done within the context of love. Yet, who is able to predict the consequences of such acts and determine, in advance, what is the “loving” thing to do? Let us suggest the following case.
    A young woman, jilted by her lover, is in a state of great depression. A married man, with whom she works, enters into an adulterous relationship with her in order to “comfort her.” Fletcher would argue that what he did might very well have been a noble deed, for the man acted out of concern for his friend. What a myopic viewpoint! Let us consider the rest of the story. The man’s wife learned of his adulterous adventure, could not cope with the situation, and eventually committed suicide. One of the man’s sons, disillusioned by the immorality of his father and the death of his mother, began a life of crime and finally was imprisoned for the murder of three people. Another son became a drunkard and was killed in an auto accident that also claimed the lives of a mother and two children. Now, was that initial act of adultery the “loving” thing to do? Hardly.
    Fourth, situationism assumes that “love” is some sort of ambiguous, no-rule essence that is a cure-all for moral problems. That is like suggesting that two football teams play a game in which there will be no rules except the rule of “fairness.” Fairness according to whose judgment? Team A? Team B? The referees? The spectators? That is utter nonsense! Fifth, even when one suggests that “love” be the criterion for ethical decisions, he presupposes some standard for determining what love is. Situationists contradict themselves at every turn.
    Determinism
    Another false concept regarding human conduct is determinism. Determinism, whether it be social, biological, or theological, has a necessary logical consequence—it absolves man of personal responsibility for his conduct. Let us consider several facts of this general thesis.
    Behaviorism, as developed by John Watson (1878-1958), a psychologist at Johns Hopkins University, argued that personality, hence conduct, is the end product of our habit system. Watson taught that man is merely an animal resulting from the evolutionary process. B.F. Skinner of Harvard became the leading proponent of behaviorism; he believed that man, as an animal, is the product of environment, and so even to speak of human responsibility was nonsense in his view. A practical example of these theories was seen in Clarence Darrow’s defense of murderers Leopold and Loeb, who killed 14-year-old Bobby Franks as an “experiment.” Darrow argued that they were in no way responsible for their act since brutal forces of their past had shaped their destinies (see Weinberg, 1957, pp. 16-88).
    Sociobiology is a newer notion that attempts to synthesize the social sciences with biology. It sees man as a mere machine, somewhat analogous to a computer, which has been programmed by its genetic makeup. Human behavior is the result of physical and chemical forces, and, as we do not hold a machine accountable, so neither should we man.
    A few comments concerning these ideas are in order. First, if determinism is true, there is no such thing as human responsibility. This is a necessary corollary of the theory. In spite of this, determinists frequently speak, write, and act as though human accountability existed. Consistency is a rare jewel among them. Second, if man is not responsible for his actions, such terms as “good” and “evil” are meaningless. Third, if man is not accountable, no one should ever be punished for robbery, rape, child abuse, murder, etc. Do we punish a machine that maims or kills a person? Fourth, how can we be expected to be persuaded by the doctrine of determinism, since the determinists were “programmed” to teach their ideas, and thus these ideas may not be true at all. Fifth, determinists won’t abide by their own doctrine. If I recopied Edward Wilson’s book, Sociobiology: The New Synthesis, and had it published in my name, I quickly would find out whether Wilson thought I was responsible for the action or if only my genetic background was!
    IS THERE ULTIMATE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY?
    A crucial question that must be addressed is this: “Is there any ultimate consequence to immorality?” Atheists are fond of saying that one should not be unethical because of social sanctions, i.e., society’s disapproval, legal punishment, etc. The implication is, unethical conduct is only “bad” because you might get caught! I once asked an atheist this question: “Paul, the apostle of Christ, and Adolf Hitler are two well-known historical characters. Both are dead. Now, so far as they are concerned, does it really make any difference that they lived their lives in such divergent directions?” He replied that it did not! If that is the case, human existence makes no sense whatsoever. But that is infidelity’s position, of course.
    CONCLUSION
    In this article, we have discussed human moral obligations. The fact that we have considered morality is something unique to our kind. No two apes ever sat down and said, “Let’s talk about ethical obligations today.” That ought to say something about our nature. In their book, Why Believe? God Exists!, Miethe and Habermas have observed:
    At every turn in the discussion of moral values, the naturalistic position is weighted down with difficulties. It has the appearance of a drowning swimmer trying to keep its head above water. If it concedes something on the one hand, it is condemned on the other. But if it fails to admit the point, it appears to be in even more trouble. It is an understatement to say, at the very least, that naturalism is not even close to being the best explanation for the existence of our moral conscience (1993, p. 219, emp. in orig.).
    As I draw this discussion to a close, there are some important summary observations that should be mentioned.

    1. Human moral responsibility is based upon the fact that God is our Creator (Psalm 100:3), and that we have been made in His spiritual image (Genesis 1:26). Just as a potter has a right over the clay he is fashioning, so our Maker has the right to obligate us morally and spiritually to right living (see Romans 9:21).
    2. Since morality is grounded in the unchanging nature of God (Malachi 3:6; 1 Peter 1:15), it is absolute—not cultural, not relative, not situational.
    3. God’s will for human behavior is not a matter of subjective speculation that every man figures out for himself; rather, Jehovah has spoken (Hebrews 1:1), and His Mind is made known in objective, biblical revelation (1 Corinthians 2:11ff.; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    4. Though the Lord possesses an unchanging nature, His revelatory process was progressive and adapted to man as he developed spiritually in those times of antiquity. Accordingly, in ages of the past Jehovah tolerated, and even regulated, certain acts that are not permissible in the Christian era. This, of course, does not mean that God vacillates in His morality; it simply means that He dealt with man as he was in that infantile state (Matthew 19:8; Acts 14:16; 17:30-31). Today, the New Testament stands as the Lord’s final and ultimate standard of morality.
    5. Though the New Testament is the “law of Christ” (Romans 8:2; Galatians 6:2), it is not a “legal” system in that each aspect of human conduct is prescribed with a “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not.” Yes, there are both positive and negative commands in the New Testament, but they do not spell out every specific activity. The inspired document contains many rich principles that challenge us to develop a greater sense of spiritual maturity and to soar to heights that are God-honoring.
    6. One must recognize also that New Testament ethics does not deal merely with actions, but addresses motives as well. For instance, what if one accidentally runs down with his automobile (and thereby kills) a careless pedestrian? He is not held accountable before God, for his act was unintentional. On the other hand, one can be guilty (in disposition) of both adultery and murder (cf. Matthew 5:28; 1 John 3:15).
    7. It is imperative that men recognize that ethical activity (i.e., right relations with one’s fellows) is not the totality of a person’s obligation before God. The centurion Cornelius certainly learned this truth (Acts 10). There are spiritual responsibilities that the Lord has prescribed as a test of true faith, and yet men frequently ignore such divine obligations.
    8. Finally, even though the Almighty has called His human creation to a high moral level, we must recognize that He is aware that we are but frail, dusty flesh (Psalms 78:39; 103:14). And so His marvelous grace has been revealed in the unspeakably wonderful gift of His Son. Those who in loving faith submit to Him (Hebrews 5:8-9) can know the pardon of their moral blunders (Acts 22:16), and are challenged to live righteous and godly lives in this present world (Titus 2:11-14).

  • The Kalam (Time) Argument:

    Muslim philosophers argued: If the universe had a beginning at all, the beginning cannot rest on nothingness but God. If the universe had, instead, an infinite past and is without beginning and uncreated, then it is impossible to have arrived at the present moment, in the same way as it is impossible to jump out of a bottomless pit.
    The key here is the concept of infinity. Surely, if we have to go back infinitely without arriving at
    a beginning, there could be a great problem with having arrived at the present moment. Without a definite starting point in time, this is simply impossible.


  • Here is an interesting excerpt from a book called “God Exists: An engineer explains why”

    Chapter 10 - Why Doesn’t God Just Give Me a Sign?

    For people that have doubts about the existence of God, the following is a popular question: “Why doesn’t God just give me a sign? Then I will believe.”. We have become so accustomed to issuing challenges to others when we have questions on the credibility of a matter. We do not hesitate to issue requests by asking that something be proven to us. Our doubts are often satisfied by physical demonstrations that we need to witness with our own senses. There are times when someone tells us of an incredible event. If it is past our threshold for being readily accepted, how often do we find ourselves saying, “I’ve got to see this for myself.”. This may be a gentle way of telling the person delivering the message that we do not totally accept what they are telling us as being factual. Instead, the non-acceptance is disguised under the vale that the event is of such great interest we want to see it for ourselves. This may be true, but a hidden reason is that we have doubts and find the verbal proof too unbelievable.

    Are there any references which might promote our belief in God by accounting for past physical observations? In the bible, there have been selective narratives which describe God’s appearance to the ancient prophets. Probably the most widely known example of a person being in the physical presence of God might be that of Moses during the time of the ten commandments. These accounts require us to have faith and to rely on the witnessing of others. For some, this evidence is not sufficient enough and they will not place their trust and faith on records which are several thousand years old. Maybe they have doubts in the ability of the witnesses who are not as discerning as people of today might be. Also, they may have distrust in the written accounts and records which have been handed down generation after generation as well as being translated from one language to another.

    Why do we not receive some type of sign that gives us reassurance and confidence in the existence of God? If we have chosen to believe, why must we rely on others to be our first hand witnesses? Previously, we discussed the growth and development that we undergo while we are on the Earth. It is quite possible that our growth and development experiences would be curtailed if we became too overconfident. It may be that the growth of our faith experience is important for us to nurture and advance. Also, the testing of our faith may be an area that is important for us to develop. Imagine if we all walked around with absolute certainty and knowledge that God existed. Might we not become overconfident in our actions and start to act reckless and arrogant. We could potentially use this knowledge to lull us into a false sense of security. How many people have known someone in a position of great power and authority and fallen into the trap where they felt they could do anything and were immune to any repercussions?

    One night, while I laid awake in bed for hours unable to sleep, I thought heavily about this topic. I put forward this same question to myself and wondered what would be required to satisfy my doubts. What kind of sign would I need? Various scenarios were considered. Maybe God could allow some miracle to happen that I would be witness to. Would that be sufficient? The more I thought about it, I realized that this would not work. What if someone who is far more skeptical than myself were to be involved instead? This would not satisfy their doubts. They would witness the miracle, but afterwards, when questioned about it, they would state that something indeed incredible happened. However when asked if God performed the miracle, they would coldly, but correctly, state that the event occurred just as described, but they did not see anyone else and they could not attribute the cause the events to God.

    I thought about supernatural events that might happen. These too fell into a category which yielded the same net result. Although they might be wonderfully spectacular and cause for great mystery, there would be a faction of people who would focus on trying to find explainable and understandable causes for the events. Picture the biblical description on the parting of the Red Sea. If that were to happen today, how many people would be studying and seeking to describe the rare occurrence through natural or scientific means.

    This led me to the determination that the most irrefutable evidence that people would accept would require a personal appearance by God. The doubt would vaporize quicker if the appearance was more spectacular and larger than life, as the expression goes. I started to think of the best circumstances for this to happen. It would be better if there were several witnesses to avoid the burden of proof falling onto a solitary person. Yet, as I attempted to mentally walk the example through, the whole process struck me as having an underlying current of futility. Knowing human nature to be what it is, the benefit of this doubt-breaking event did not seem destined to succeed. However, let us try and the example is set up as follows.

    Say that you and twenty of your friends were to stand in a secluded area and God was to appear to the group. Furthermore, God would to speak to the group and briefly demonstrate the impressive powers that were at God’s command. Both the miraculous appearance and the demonstration left you and the entire group without any doubts whatsoever that God did indeed exist. Everyone was so pleased and overjoyed because now their doubts were totally overcome and satisfied. Any burdens or the weight of nagging questions were now completely lifted. There was a combined feeling of relief and joy at this event.

    However, the difficulties have only begun. As a group, your skepticism has been totally overcome and you are all overjoyed. The task that lies ahead of you all is to now pass on the wonderful news to others. How do you undertake this? Maybe the first and obvious step is to tell the friends and family members of the group. It would be such a fantastic experience and the group would want to pass along the extraordinary knowledge to the next circle of friends outside the group so that they too could benefit. How would this go over? Quite well is the likely response. Since it is such a rare and incredible event, there would be serious first doubts as the explanation is initially told. However, these doubts would quickly evaporate once the realization of the circumstances and the people involved fully set in. The sincerity and credibility of the people involved in the event would be known and mentally evaluated by their friends. The credibility of the people, combined with the fact that they have a first hand report from the actual participants, would more than likely lead the first circle of friends to conclude the event was quite real. It may even lead to a change in their outlook on believing in the existence of God.

    What happens though, when the original group tries to spread the knowledge of the event outside a close circle of acquaintances? For example, let us consider what would happen if the various types of news media were contacted. We will assume that due to the number of people involved, the news media will at least find the report worthwhile and send someone to investigate. Reporters would get dispatched and commence by conducting interviews with all of the first hand witnesses. Always concerned about hoaxes, they would have to determine the credibility of the witnesses and would likely find some ways to perform character checks. Another certain step they would take would be to ask if there was any more evidence of the event. Was there any physical evidence which was left behind and that could be shown. Since there is such an preponderance of news outlets that use visual media, inquiries would be made to see if there were any photographs taken, or, if anything was captured on a video camera. Without hard evidence of some type or any photographic record, the news event would certainly be characterized differently and would even affect the priority and coverage it was given.

    How would this news event play around the world? Would it make the headlines and the front page, or, would it be an obscure curiosity article? This is impossible to predict and there are many factors that might affect the outcome. What affect would it have on people who heard the news? One could speculate that there would be a lot of pessimistic people and a many of them would not change their beliefs based on this report. They would continue to doubt as they did not see it themselves firsthand. It is also hard to predict how many different countries around the world would even pick up on the event and communicate it to their people. There are nearly five billion people in the world. How many would actually hear of this within a reasonable period of time?

    If you were personally involved in the group that actually saw God and suddenly found the news media decided to go against the group, you would find the whole scenario somewhat disconcerting to think about. You might be hesitant to even be identified with the group for fear of all the attention and potential negative repercussions. If public opinion did not take a positive swing on the matter, there could be a lot of negative labels placed on those involved. Labels might range from being called an all out crackpot to a person who was highly gullible and was easily misled. Instead of being a party to a miraculous event, you suddenly find yourself being highly criticized and constantly defending yourself and your reputation. Although we would like to believe our advanced society is beyond those things, you could suddenly find yourself at the center of a modern day witch hunt. How often have we seen this happen in recent history, where suddenly a tide swells and investigations begin that even include the government and become a quasi inquiry. People and families are led to personal ruin and later it is determined that an ‘error’ was made.

    Imagine how uncomfortable the whole scenario could become if there were stipulations placed on the event. The stipulations are completely hypothetical, but let us assume these conditions were issued. As part of your being a witness to God’s existence and benefit this knowledge gave you, you had to undertake with others in the group to spread the word about what you had seen and to positively emphasize that God did exist. In other words, since God had given you all a sign, you promised to tell others. The scenario would not become uncomfortable if the news was received positively. However, imagine how difficult the promise would be to keep if you are met with even an average response which included an air of indifference and skepticism. The task would quickly become very onerous when you realize that you need to inform and convince millions of others.

    I am not even sure if better evidence would help you. Say that you had a video tape of the event. Would people now readily believe you? The special effects that are created for today’s film productions are amazingly realistic. How many stares and quizzical looks would you receive as you showed the tape of God’s appearance? Snide comments might be heard such as, “Great special effects!”. Others might still ask for further evidence to see if the tape could be authenticated by experts in some way.

    Can you imagine how great the challenge would be if further stipulations were placed upon you? In addition to spreading the news that you were a witness to God’s existence to millions of other people around the world, what if you were challenged that you also had to pass the message on to future generations of humankind? How would you do this in a convincing way? When you look back on the accounting of a historical event that goes back one or two hundred years, how much credibility do you give to the records? Do you not have some doubts that the information was inadvertently altered in a minor way after such a great passage of time, or, that additional and important information might now be missing or lost. Details such as the exact people involved, exact times and dates, or, the precise location and place of the events become vague and somewhat suspect. This speculation occurs for historical events on which we are confident did occur. We just have doubts as to what may have been lost due to the ‘translation’ over time. We do not doubt the event happened it is just that the facts are fuzzy around the edges. What would the situation be generations from now when they look back on the records of such a truly incredible event as the appearance of God? Would future generations just write it off with skepticism as the musings of some antiquated and technologically backward group of people? “Yes, maybe they did witness something astonishing, but they had no idea what they were looking at.” Are those the comments you would hear and do they sound familiar as comments we make ourselves about previous generations?

    Yes, it would be a very daunting task if God were to press for something in exchange for satisfying your request - “Just give me a sign”. In exchange for just giving you a sign, you are to just convince several million others and just ensure the message is passed on continuously from generation to generation. You have now been entrusted with critically important knowledge. Think about how you would go about satisfying these requirements.


  • @Yanny:

    This is flawed from the start of the first paragraph. It automatically assumes a Monotheist God. An Agnostic does not always have to believe or not believe in Monotheism.

    That is such a cop out to the whole debate. That is something that someone like Fisternis would not resort to.

    Anyway, for an Agnostic, the possibility of a monotheistic God is always there.

    That is what we are debating, anyway.


  • @F_alk:

    I read through the first section, and it was a pain. It hurt, being so full of inconsistencies.

    Again, another shameful cop out.


  • I read through the first section, and it was a pain. It hurt, being so full of inconsistencies.
    That’s too much to go into detail, unless you ask politely for it .

    For the last section, the infinite time argument, i will make up another thread.

    Completly agree, it is full of logical fallacies.

    I also find it pretty dishonorable from YB, i can give you entire and long text about why god does exist, that you will need a week to refute. This text is not always stupid, but when it come to the conclusion that “god exist”, it is incoherent. Also the guys clearly lack some knowledge in physics, when he say everything is caused, he lack some basic understanding of quantum physics. When he say the argument about intelligent desing, he is completly incoherent with himself; the simple exemple of a Star can disprove most of his claim about desing and why physical law cannot be the disigner. Also he is making a very poor fallacies when stating that the cause of the universe must be god. And the morality thing is clearly funny, when he say “morality” exist, then god exist, he only refer as evidence the fact that morality exist.

    If you want to use his text to help you make argument against me; it’s ok, but don’t throw at me text like that; it will never finish and if you are unable to formulate an argument yourself even with text; you will have problem in university.


  • @F_alk:

    you try to “win by overwhelming postings”

    No, I try to “win by overwhelming logic”

    Crypt, Horten, Moses, Moses’ Sister, Mini Phreak, Fisternis, Dezert Fish, City, note that Falk has thrown in the towl.

    And Falk, about your post about Sine, I could say that the universe is like a popsicle, it is very cold, and it equals you saying, the universe is like Sine, it has no begining.


  • @FinsterniS:

    physical law cannot be the disigner

    Where do you think physical law came from? Physical law is just one more example of intelligent design.


  • @FinsterniS:

    I read through the first section, and it was a pain. It hurt, being so full of inconsistencies.
    That’s too much to go into detail, unless you ask politely for it .

    For the last section, the infinite time argument, i will make up another thread.

    Completly agree, it is full of logical fallacies.

    I also find it pretty dishonorable from YB, i can give you entire and long text about why god does exist, that you will need a week to refute. This text is not always stupid, but when it come to the conclusion that “god exist”, it is incoherent. Also the guys clearly lack some knowledge in physics, when he say everything is caused, he lack some basic understanding of quantum physics. When he say the argument about intelligent desing, he is completly incoherent with himself; the simple exemple of a Star can disprove most of his claim about desing and why physical law cannot be the disigner. Also he is making a very poor fallacies when stating that the cause of the universe must be god. And the morality thing is clearly funny, when he say “morality” exist, then god exist, he only refer as evidence the fact that morality exist.

    If you want to use his text to help you make argument against me; it’s ok, but don’t throw at me text like that; it will never finish and if you are unable to formulate an argument yourself even with text; you will have problem in university.

    i have to admit - i didn’t have the time (or inclination) to read the post(s). YB - you’d have to form a more cohesive, substantially whittled down post - i’m a product of the 90s and have a short attention span
    Also FinsterniS - i noticed that you use the orderlyness of Stars and galaxies in a way of refuting intelligent design. I think that the orderlyness of the universe is in a-not-quite-unrelated concert with the orderlyness of the earth - both possibly forged by intelligent design.
    At any rate, i’m kind of out of this one, so don’t take me too seriously FinsterniS (not that i really give you a good reason too . . . :))


  • Crypt, not to discourage you, but this is more between me and Fisternis.

    Fisternis, you asked me for arguments. I admit that it is a tad long, however, it is only a 10-15 minute read. At a University, where the point is me writing a paper, I would write a paper. In this case, they (there are 3 different authors, like College professors) say it the most succintly.


  • Nothing causeless happens.

    He certainly know nothing about Quantum physics…

    And all the other argument for Desing can be not only correctly and logicaly apply to the “physic’s law”, they can be apply without any disruption of the occam’s razor nor any disruption of anything. YB, i won’t take time to counter evey argument in it; and the “prime factor” argument is for me enough, if god is exluded from the creation of the universe, he is excluded for a lots of things… I explain my view on it lots of time, Falk too, god can hardly be a valid “prime factor” to the universe, you are, as an answer, only showing us your inhability to conceive another creator than your god. The text you send is a well formulated one, but it is still not very scientific in it’s reasonning (the morality part is very funny).

    Also CC, by poiting Star, i am pointing out a big desing, that can be explain only by laws without any mythological help. You cannot prove any theory about a desinger with in hand a desing that we understand. If we take life; we put a “desinger” in it because we don’t understand everything, when we will religion will as always retreat. That’s why i am repeating that to prove god; you need ignorance. That is the basis of the god explanation…

    Just an exemple about order; n(2^.5) mod1 for n = 1 to 30. While there is no order in 2^.5 modulo 1, there is an order when we look at the graphic of it when multiply by n 30 times, it’s an equipartial, very strange… If this phenomena where in our physic world; like the “earth is perfect place for life” argument of your little PhD, it would have been god ! When there is a strange order somewhere; it is god…


  • @Yanny:

    This is flawed from the start of the first paragraph. It automatically assumes a Monotheist God. An Agnostic does not always have to believe or not believe in Monotheism.

    there isn’t more than one God and I can assure you. The idea of it is too conjured up by man wanting to expalin is multiple surroundings. If there is a God, he is of words we cannot explain, and numbers we cannot count. To say you can is arrogant because if God is supreme (even that too light a word) then what can a lowly man compare him to what he already knows? Furthermore throughout time man thought he kn ew everything knowable. 500 years from now physcisit (sp.) can prove in ways we cannot imagine that there is no good and that the Universe is eternal because the spped of light this divided by time that and who knows.

    "There are but three possible answers to this question: (1) the Universe is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist; (2) the Universe is not eternal; rather, it created itself out of nothing; (3) the Universe is not eternal, and did not create itself out of nothing; rather, it was created by something (or Someone) anterior, and superior, to itself. These three options merit serious consideration. "

    The Universe is finite according to our math (if the vo9lume of open space around earth was infinite, density cannot exist because M/V, would nopt be able to be performed. There has to be an end to that logic, yet this logic can be outdate in the future.) Where did it began and how? Is it really important to know, we obviously can’t figure it out now. I believe God started the unvierse and existance, but that is only because I have no better answer. That and becauser someone always tries to spite me…it is either ghosts or God!


  • I read the first one and it was enough.

    Now time to prove that Jesus is lord! That’s going to be hard to do!


  • Ok, time for me to help out the good people here.

    90 percent of Religions in the history of the world have been Polytheist. However, the conquerers of the world, the Muslims and Christians, just happen to be the ruling Religion at this time. There are still incredibly popular Polytheist religions (Hinduism) and in fact incredibly popular Religions where no god is featured (Buddism).

    Why should I believe in a philosophy so alien to almost all past cultures? People believed the Earth was flat 600 years ago, should I take that as true now?

    Your “Jesus” has nothing to back up his claims but far fetched stories and a legend about himself. In fact, the three major Monotheist Religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islaam) cannot even agree on who Jesus was. How are you to say one Religion is right and one is wrong here?

    You could argue that we’re the most successful society on earth, its because we believe in God. Canada and Japan have a better quality of life than the United States. In fact, we’ve gotten to our Superpower status through Science, but also through Greed, Violence, and the lives of millions. God isn’t reponsible for this, if you want a true Religion look into yourself.

    The Polytheistic Religions of the Ancient World were as successful as we were. The Egyptians built great Pyramids, which rival any structure we can put together today. The Greeks jumped in leaps and bounds in the fields of Science and Art, and Democracy. The Romans ruled the world, made an incredible amount of advancement in almost every field of science, engineering, and military force. In fact, the fall of the Roman Empire is often attributed to the disorder of Christianity.

    Why should I believe in a “Heavan” and “Hell”. I don’t think this all mighty god really cares about what I did during my life. In fact, all three Monotheist Religions cannot agree on what Heavan and Hell is.

    Let me just express my opinion about life after death.

    I dont care!

    I’ll find out when I die.


  • I’d like to weigh in here…
    Religion is dumb… :lol:

    Its has some cool aspects to it, but I dont belive.

    If there are creators out there, by the conditions of our planet, it is probably some alien from the dark corners of time, straight out a of H.P. Lovecraft book.
    That would be tight.


  • “I defend the Good God against the idea of a continuous game of dice.”
    -Albert Einstein

    do you know what it mean ?


  • (These quotes refer to the Dr.’s Postings)

    “If an entity cannot account for its own being (i.e., it is not sufficient to have caused itself), then it is said to be “contingent” because it is dependent upon something outside of itself to explain its existence. The Universe is a contingent entity, since it is inadequate to cause, or explain, its own existence. Sproul has noted: “Logic requires that if something exists contingently, it must have a cause. That is merely to say, if it is an effect it must have an antecedent cause” (1994, p. 172). Thus, since the Universe is a contingent effect, the obvious question becomes, “What caused the Universe?”.”

    This assumes that a necessary whole cannot be made of contingent parts. It also assumes that a Necessary Being must have all of the attributes of God.

    “1. Everything that exists is either matter or mind.
    2. Something exists now, so something eternal must exist.
    3. Therefore, either matter or mind is eternal.
    A. Either matter or mind is eternal.
    B. Matter is not eternal, per the evidence cited above.
    C. Thus, it is mind that is eternal.
    In the past, atheists suggested that the mind is nothing more than a function of the brain, which is matter; thus the mind and the brain are the same, and matter is all that exists.”

    Atheism is not materialism. Although some atheists are materialists, atheists are not committed to this view. For example, atheism is compatible with various forms of mind-body dualism. Also, using the argument “in the past, atheist…” is not a strong argument.

    “Effects without adequate causes are unknown. Further, causes never occur subsequent to the effect. It is meaningless to speak of a cause following an effect, or an effect preceding a cause.
    The most comfortable position for the person who does not believe in God is the idea that the Universe is eternal, because it avoids the problem of a beginning or ending, and thus the need for any “first cause” such as God. In fact, it was to avoid just such a problem that evolutionists Thomas Gold, Hermann Bondi, and Fred Hoyle developed the Steady State Theory. Information had come to light that indicated the Universe was expanding.”
    The Kalam (Time) Argument:
    Muslim philosophers argued: If the universe had a beginning at all, the beginning cannot rest on nothingness but God. If the universe had, instead, an infinite past and is without beginning and uncreated, then it is impossible to have arrived at the present moment, in the same way as it is impossible to jump out of a bottomless pit.
    The key here is the concept of infinity. Surely, if we have to go back infinitely without arriving at
    a beginning, there could be a great problem with having arrived at the present moment. Without a definite starting point in time, this is simply impossible.
    “There are but three possible answers to this question: (1) the Universe is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist; (2) the Universe is not eternal; rather, it created itself out of nothing; (3) the Universe is not eternal, and did not create itself out of nothing; rather, it was created by something (or Someone) anterior, and superior, to itself. These three options merit serious consideration.”

    I will try to answer these statements at the same time. First of all, the universe could arise spontaneously, that is, “out of nothing.” Several cosmologists have embraced this view and it is not to be dismissed as impossible. To say that everything does have a cause is a lack of modern science and physics (come on, I’m Californian. Compared to the rest of the world, I have a 4th rate education). It must be noted, that the universe is “all there is.” It is not a thing. A God would certainly be a part of “all there is,” and if the universe requires an explanation, then God requires a God. Who made god? The major premise of this argument, “everything had a cause,” is contradicted by the conclusion that “God did not have a cause.” If it is possible to think of a god as uncaused, then it is possible to think the same of the universe. There is one important difficulty that I want to mention briefly with the Kalam and Cause argument. If there is no time prior to the beginning of the universe, then the main argument for saying that the universe must have a cause is considerably weakened.

    “Can a person reasonably be expected to believe that these exacting requirements for life as we know it have been met “just by accident”?”

    Probability estimates are meaningful only given certain assumptions. The probability estimates to which he refers seem to be based on the classical theory of probability: the ratio of the possibilities favorable to life to all possibilities. However, this theory can only be applied if we have good reason to suppose that the possibilities are equally likely. But we have no reason to make this assumption in this case. On the other hand, the frequency theory of probability cannot apply either. On this theory, probability is the frequency in which a type of event occurs within a class of events. However, let us grant one could make the probability estimates consider above. There are several hypotheses cosmologists have constructed to explain life that have nothing to with supernatural beings. For example, cosmologists have developed a model in terms of so called “wave existence.” They have conjectured that our world–our galaxy and the other galaxies–may be one among many alternative worlds or universes existing at the same time. On this view the universe as a whole is composed of a vast number of such worlds or universes, the overwhelming majority of these are lifeless since the various demands that are required for life, as we understand it, are not met in them. However, given enough universes it is very likely that in some of the complex conditions that are necessary for life would be found. We happen to be in such a universe.

    “…Although many have difficulty understanding the tremendous order and complexity of functions of the human body (the eye, for example), there is no obvious designer” (1986, p. 191, emp. added). The only people who “have difficulty understanding the tremendous order and complexity” found in the Universe are those who have “refused to have God in their knowledge””

    This argument merely assumes what it wishes to prove. Any attempt to “explain” anything requires a higher context within which it can be understood. To ask for the explanation of the “complex universe” is simply to demand a “higher universe.”

    “…IS THERE ULTIMATE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY?
    A crucial question that must be addressed is this: “Is there any ultimate consequence to immorality?” Atheists are fond of saying that one should not be unethical because of social sanctions, i.e., society’s disapproval, legal punishment, etc. The implication is, unethical conduct is only “bad” because you might get caught!…”

    Atheism is not committed to ethical relativism or subjectivism. Ethical absolutism is compatible with atheism, and more recently other philosophers have argued for ethical realism in purely secular terms. Atheism is not committed to the view that life is meaningless, absurd, or valueless.

    “Since the effect never can precede, or be greater than the cause, it stands to reason that the Cause of life must be a living Intelligence that Itself is both moral and loving.”

    No good evidence is given for this claim and, in any case, an unintelligent universe is compatible with other hypotheses beside theism, for example, polytheism.

    “1. Human moral responsibility is based upon the fact that God is our Creator (Psalm 100:3), and that we have been made in His spiritual image (Genesis 1:26). Just as a potter has a right over the clay he is fashioning, so our Maker has the right to obligate us morally and spiritually to right living (see Romans 9:21).
    2. Since morality is grounded in the unchanging nature of God (Malachi 3:6; 1 Peter 1:15), it is absolute—not cultural, not relative, not situational.
    3. God’s will for human behavior is not a matter of subjective speculation that every man figures out for himself; rather, Jehovah has spoken (Hebrews 1:1), and His Mind is made known in objective, biblical revelation (1 Corinthians 2:11ff.; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    4. Though the Lord possesses an unchanging nature, His revelatory process was progressive and adapted to man as he developed spiritually in those times of antiquity. Accordingly, in ages of the past Jehovah tolerated, and even regulated, certain acts that are not permissible in the Christian era. This, of course, does not mean that God vacillates in His morality; it simply means that He dealt with man as he was in that infantile state (Matthew 19:8; Acts 14:16; 17:30-31). Today, the New Testament stands as the Lord’s final and ultimate standard of morality.
    5. Though the New Testament is the “law of Christ” (Romans 8:2; Galatians 6:2), it is not a “legal” system in that each aspect of human conduct is prescribed with a “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not.” Yes, there are both positive and negative commands in the New Testament, but they do not spell out every specific activity. The inspired document contains many rich principles that challenge us to develop a greater sense of spiritual maturity and to soar to heights that are God-honoring.
    6. One must recognize also that New Testament ethics does not deal merely with actions, but addresses motives as well. For instance, what if one accidentally runs down with his automobile (and thereby kills) a careless pedestrian? He is not held accountable before God, for his act was unintentional. On the other hand, one can be guilty (in disposition) of both adultery and murder (cf. Matthew 5:28; 1 John 3:15).
    7. It is imperative that men recognize that ethical activity (i.e., right relations with one’s fellows) is not the totality of a person’s obligation before God. The centurion Cornelius certainly learned this truth (Acts 10). There are spiritual responsibilities that the Lord has prescribed as a test of true faith, and yet men frequently ignore such divine obligations.
    8. Finally, even though the Almighty has called His human creation to a high moral level, we must recognize that He is aware that we are but frail, dusty flesh (Psalms 78:39; 103:14). And so His marvelous grace has been revealed in the unspeakably wonderful gift of His Son. Those who in loving faith submit to Him (Hebrews 5:8-9) can know the pardon of their moral blunders (Acts 22:16), and are challenged to live righteous and godly lives in this present world (Titus 2:11-14).”

    These are classic examples of theist free will defense (FWD), to try and prove moral evil is not to be blamed on God but is the result of human’s misuse of their free will. However, there are several flaws. The FWD assumes that the exercise of free will is worth the price of millions of deaths and untold suffering. This is a doubtful assumption. The FWD takes for granted contra causal freedom (CCF), in other words that human decisions are not caused by any events in our brains or nervous systems. However, there is no scientific reason to suppose that CCF is true. Although God is not directly responsible for evil on the FWD defense, He is indirectly responsible. Presumably He has foreknowledge and knows that His creatures will misuse their CCF. In this case, God is reckless and if He does not have foreknowledge, He knows at least that this misuse is possible and yet took no safeguards to prevent it. In this case, God is negligent. Moreover, it makes no sense to suppose that a rational God would create human beings in His own image and yet expect them to believe in Him without strong evidence, that is, to be irrational.

    “Our Universe operates in accordance with exact scientific laws. The precision of the Universe, and the exactness of these laws, allow scientists to launch rockets to the Moon, with the full knowledge that, upon their arrival, they can land within a few feet of their intended target. Such precision and exactness also allow astronomers to predict solar/lunar eclipses years in advance, or to determine when Halley’s Comet can be seen once again from the Earth. Science writer Lincoln Barnett once observed:
    This functional harmony of nature Berkeley, Descartes, and Spinoza attributed to God.”

    A natural law is a description, not a prescription. The universe is not “governed” by anything. Natural laws are merely human conceptions of the way things normally react, not behavioral mandates, as with societal laws. If the design argument is valid, the mind of a god would be equally “governed” by some principle of order, requiring a higher lawgiver.

    Word to the wise – can you please trim in down YB? I don’t like the author referring to this “source,” when I can’t even see it with my own eyes.

    Anyways, I find it tough trying to answer all these questions, since I am (in many ways) a theist myself. At any point, I am not atheist. But you know me, never back down from fight.

    (Quotes from Forum Posters)

    Horten said, “there isn’t more than one God and I can assure you. The idea of it is too conjured up by man wanting to expalin is multiple surroundings. If there is a God, he is of words we cannot explain, and numbers we cannot count. To say you can is arrogant because if God is supreme (even that too light a word) then what can a lowly man compare him to what he already knows?”

    The argument squashes itself, because God can be conceived to have infinite mass, which is disproved empirically. And it is comparing apples and oranges to assume that existence in conception can somehow be related to existence in actuality. Even if the comparison holds, why is existence in actuality “supreme” (whatever that means) than existence in conception? Perhaps it is the other way around. Another flaw in this reasoning is to treat existence as an attribute. Existence is a given. A good way to expose this reasoning is to replace “God” with some other words. You could prove the existence of a perfect “void,” which would mean nothing exists.

    Mr Ghoul said, “Religion is dumb…”

    No, I believe my religion is pretty “smart.” Other religions such as Buddhism or Taoism are very complex.

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