German bid: Two infantry in West Russia. Yay or nay?



  • I saw this move in a game.  Whaddya think?

    (Note:  Technically, it is “aye”, or “nay”, but I like “yay”.  Which is not to be confused with “yayo”.)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Yeah I saw that move as well, and it didn’t go well for Switch at all.  Those 2 extra inf didn’t do a hill of beans of difference.  Put them somewhere better where they can possibly be used to counter attack or with the fighter in Ukraine to get an extra extra hit or 3 when/if the Russkies hit there.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I woudnt do that. I favor Belorussia instead… because really Soviets use only the 3 infantry and 2 planes on it and now you just saved 3 infantry by placing 2 more in Belo, Additionally you have more fodder on the front lines.

    The 2 inf could also go in UKR, because people like Jennifer like to attack that on SU1

    But West Russia is certain death because all Soviet units can reach with little harm. West Russia is a meatgrinder of axis forces.



  • Based on sim results, it is sub-optimal, I tried it in that game for specific purpose though, and to an extent it worked (Russia only attacked 1 territory on R1).  And had I not had sub-par dice both on the attack of West Russia by Russia, and on the German Counter, it could have been dreadfully effective in the long term.


  • 2007 AAR League

    i would never do it.



  • I will likely try it again sometime…


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Interesting idea, but I really don’t see a long term benefit from it.



  • Nah.  Those guys are toast, and they don’t add much to slow down the pile of plastic that Russia will put down there anyway.  Maybe they’ll kill an extra Inf?  The bid is better used elsewhere.  Not that I play with a bid.

    ~Josh



  • I have only played with a bid a couple of times so far, and I have placed units in Libya both times.  I vote thumbs down on WRus for the reasons others have said.  But here’s a another way to ask the question:

    What other bid placements have you tried other than Libya?



  • @goldenbearflyer:

    I have only played with a bid a couple of times so far, and I have placed units in Libya both times.  I vote thumbs down on WRus for the reasons others have said.  But here’s a another way to ask the question:

    What other bid placements have you tried other than Libya?

    That isn’t another way to ask the question.  That, sir, is threadjacking.  Which as I am sure you know is a proud tradition here.

    But by all means, let us call a spade a spade!

    Baltic transport, Mediterranean transport, French Indochina infantry, Manchurian infantry, Japanese transport.  All bids worthy of consideration, I think.  Not to say that Ukraine infantry doesn’t have its charm, but I’ve tried that variation enough to believe that I wouldn’t go for it unless I can put at least 2 infantry there.



  • @newpaintbrush:

    That isn’t another way to ask the question. That, sir, is threadjacking. Which as I am sure you know is a proud tradition here.

    But by all means, let us call a spade a spade!

    Baltic transport, Mediterranean transport, French Indochina infantry, Manchurian infantry, Japanese transport. All bids worthy of consideration, I think. Not to say that Ukraine infantry doesn’t have its charm, but I’ve tried that variation enough to believe that I wouldn’t go for it unless I can put at least 2 infantry there.

    OK, it’s a spade.  Just trying to keep the thread going… the masses have spoken:  13-0 against 2inf in WRus.  :lol:

    So it begs the question, what other moves do you like.  Yeah, those sound like good ideas.  Funny, I hear so little about bid units for J.  Inf in FIC seems very helpful.



  • @goldenbearflyer:

    @newpaintbrush:

    That isn’t another way to ask the question. That, sir, is threadjacking. Which as I am sure you know is a proud tradition here.

    But by all means, let us call a spade a spade!

    Baltic transport, Mediterranean transport, French Indochina infantry, Manchurian infantry, Japanese transport. All bids worthy of consideration, I think. Not to say that Ukraine infantry doesn’t have its charm, but I’ve tried that variation enough to believe that I wouldn’t go for it unless I can put at least 2 infantry there.

    OK, it’s a spade.  Just trying to keep the thread going… the masses have spoken:  13-0 against 2inf in WRus.  :lol:

    So it begs the question, what other moves do you like.  Yeah, those sound like good ideas.  Funny, I hear so little about bid units for J.  Inf in FIC seems very helpful.

    …make it 14.

    My limited experience with bidding is that I like to put bid units where I can attack with them.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The question was if you should place 2 inf in west russia… if not in west russia i think the idea was where else in russia would you place them… 99% of people allready know/do the Lybia thing.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Well the only thing the 2 Inf would do is maybe kill an extra Inf or 2 because no one would not attack W Rus as Russia because of 2 more Inf



  • I wouldn’t do it.  Actually it seems like a waste of the bid.  Every German  in West Russia dies.  It may make WR the only territory that Russia takes but that alone is not reason enough to place your entire bid in a death trap.


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    West Russia is a going to get globbered and the more conservative the player the harder it is going to get clobbered. While the 2 bid INF might get some more dead russkies they won’t change the shape of the board as much as putting them elsewhere.



  • OK, here is the thing with the WR Bid…

    It spooks the Russians, so they only attack ONE territory, West Russia.  Germany saves not only the FIG in Ukraine, but the 3 INF, the ART, and the ARM as well.

    So, at a cost of only a 6 IPC bid, Germany saves 18 IPC of units that normally would have died on R1.  Good trade in my book.



  • And of course on average, the 2 INF also means 1 extra dead Russian in the actual WR attack.  And Germany preserves payment for Ukraine and prevents Russia from getting paid for Ukraine.  Call it a net +21 IPC on average for Germany.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Poor analysis Switch.

    The Ukraine units may or may not have been attacked without the bid.  If they would have been, then Russia would have also sacrificed units to take Ukraine, and those units would probably be lost in the counterattack.  No way I’m giving you a net +18 IPC on that unit trade, maybe a net +8.  Plus quite possibly Germany may have retaken Ukraine (to kill russian arm) so they would have gotten paid for that territory on G1 anyway.

    Then there is the opportunity cost of NOT placing your units somewhere else (Like LIB, for example).  Potentially losing more units at EGY than you would have with a LIB bid, and possibly not even closing the suez (even more costly).

    +21 net IPC gain for Germany is not even close.  Maybe GER is up 3 IPC at the most, or more likely GER is down IPC with this bid.  Hence the 0 YAY - 16 NAY votes on this topic.  Don’t you think if GER was up +21 IPC there would be more people using it and more people (more than none that is) at least voting for it as a viable strat?



  • Here is the thing…

    With the Bid in WR, yes, you can still lose both WR AND Ukraine.  But with typical dice, if Russia attempts both, they will be thin to the point of transparent on the German front.  And then Germany coun counter-attack possibly BOTH WR and Ukraine without significant opposition.

    But you don;t WANT to have to re-take territory as Germany on G1.  Your AF is needed for other areas of security (the BB off Gibraltar and the DST off Egypt most notably), so you don;t have AF to use for your counters, you have to comit land forces.  And if WR is stacked, as it normally is post R1, whatever forces you put in Ukraine are likely to die on R2.  And since you AF are tied up, that means German ARM dead in Ukraine in exchange for Russian INF, a BAD trade.

    But if you sucker Russia into only attackign West Russia, then you don;t have to re-take Ukraine.  That means extra German ARM alive while Germany builds up their INF to start their eastward drive.  And of course Germany maintains 6 FIGs, isntead of having only 5… a point that is always worth remembering.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I usually leave Ukraine alone anyway so the 2 inf in WR against me is a pointless bid (I would like it anyway) make my re-capture and hold of Africa/Egypt that much easier.

    Ukraine/Belo would be the only ones I would consider in Europe, that’s just me of course. I am a huge African Fan both of the Allies and of the Axis. I use a lot of troops to take and secure Africa as both sides.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I’d say it has potential.  It could encourage aggressive players to do something unwise like attacking Ukraine and the more conservative players might be pushed into only attacking WR as discussed before. If you know your opponent, it could definitely pay off, though.

    The best counter would probably be for Russia to attack Belo and crush West Russia. Even then it isn’t a guarantee for success since the Belo attack is never for sure unless you bring the Arch armor and those 2 extra inf in WR could really slow down the Russian offensive on a good day of defense. But that’s probably how I would do it since all of Germany’s aircraft would be used in attacking the sz13 BB and Egypt, the German player might have to hang an armor in a Belo counterattack. Unless, of course, he gambles in sz13 or Egypt, or abandons the attack on Egypt altogether. If you are the type of German player that likes to build a fleet in the Med, like me, not attacking Egypt might not hurt your feelings so that would free up some aircraft for Europe. In that case, placing 2 bid inf in WR is definitely viable.


  • 2019 Moderator

    I think if I was faced with this bid I would
    @U-505:

    attack Belo and crush West Russia.

    However I think I would do it with the two fighters and three Inf.  I think those Inf are quite valuable to Germany.  I would also keep an infantry in arc out of the Wru fight to move into Kar as a road block.

    I would drop 4 Inf into Ukr and hope that Germany goes for it.  Especially if they bring those 3 tasty tanks.

    I don’t think this bid gives enough long term value.  Africa will be gone in 60 seconds and I think you need to get a fist full of dollars out of Africa.

    The Africa bid is my first choice, of course I have never been able to get an 8 point bid, thats a guaranteed tranny, for me anyway.



  • If the goal of this bid is to discourage an attack of the Ukraine on R1, then just put those two Inf in the Ukraine itself.  Sure the Ukraine can still be attacked on R1, but Russia has to commit 3 tanks or the attack is about 50/50.  Even with the 3 tanks, it’s only a 70% attack.

    Seems that all that a 2 Inf in WR bid would do is encourage a WR/Belo attack instead of a WR/Ukraine attack on R1.  And as some have argued a WR/Belo attack is generally just as good for the allies as a WR/Ukraine attack anyway.  But in any case those 2 bid units are dead after R1.

    2 Inf in the Ukraine however presents Russia with a dilemma.  Attack Ukraine on R1 and make both Ukraine and WR somewhat riskier attacks or leave Ukraine alone and Germany gets two extra Inf on the front lines.


  • 2007 AAR League

    The goal isn’t to discourage an attack on Ukraine, but to encourage one for the aggressive Russian players. With 2 inf in WR the Ukraine/WR attack gets pretty risky especially in WR.

    2 inf in Ukraine doesn’t present any dilemma for the Russians. Belo/WR can go on just as if those inf were placed in Libya. There are no more units defending those territories. The problem is that WR has to be attacked on R1 no matter what. By adding the bid to the territory that ALWAYS gets attacked you put the pressure on the secondary territory. Either you make the secondary attack with the minimum amount of units or run the risk of taking a beating in WR. The risk may be high enough to a conservative player that both Belo and Ukraine aren’t attacked which provides immediate value.

    Attacking WR/Belo is probably the best move but with the added inf in WR the Russians are going to take 1 more hit on average there so you don’t really lose much and the minimum Belo attack isn’t used for an IPC gain. It’s main purpose is to trade off 3 forward German infantry for 3 Russian infantry to keep the Germans from massing armor under the cover of advanced infantry. So it becomes entirely likely that a good defense in Belo coupled with the extra unit or units Russia lost in WR gives the German player an opportunity to counterattack WR with a good deal of firepower. Even if it costs you a lost fighter to AA, smashing the Russian vanguard might be the right play to make. And if you don’t counterattack WR, at the very least it will give you Caucasus for a turn.


Log in to reply
 

20th Anniversary Give Away

In January 2000 this site came to life and now we're celebrating our 20th Anniversary with a prize giveaway of 30+ prizes. See this link for the list of prizes and winners.
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys
T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 16
  • 20
  • 3
  • 41
  • 6
  • 6
  • 9
  • 3
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

44
Online

14.9k
Users

35.7k
Topics

1.5m
Posts