German navy

@goldenbearflyer:

@squirecam:

Germany, (with bid) should be at 40 or over (given Africa). Japan WILL TAKE AND HOLD THE FOLLOWING China(2)sink(2)India(3),Bury(1)SFE(1)(Yakut(1)(Australia(2)NZ(1)HI(1)

That’s 14 IPC.

Now, from 96-70, you go to 82 Allies to 84 axis

Are you going to dispute that in a pure KGF, Japan cannot by round 3 get these territories???

If not, in which case, the “allied IPC lead” you refer to is KAPUT…by round THREE

Squirecam

Squire, you obviously have played much more than I have, not counting the original A&A, so you would know what you have accomplished, but I find it hard to believe that Japan can take all those territories you mention by T3 against a decent Allies player.  How do you have enough ground units to take all that?  I assume you would take some hits to inf somewhere in there.  If the Allies reinforce and make a stand in any one of those areas you should be at least partially thwarted.  I’m not disputing that you have done it, but I do wonder how, because I would love to learn! :-)

1. As I stated, this is a pure KGF. Generally, in such cases, the India troops are shuttled to retake Egypt. Which is subject to re-taking by Germany, if the bid was used in Africa.

2. Abandonment of India, leaves Japan with India held (and trading Persia). Thats 3.

3. USSR troops are either dead or have moved east (to swap Novo) by Japan 3. Leaving Japan with Bury, SFE and Yakut. 3 More.

4. Japan should have China/Sink by round 2-3. Thats 4.

5. If 1 transport is shuttled to Hawaii Japan 2. that transport can take NZ Japan 3. Add 1 more

6. If 1-2 transports are outside FIC Japan 2, they can take Australia Japan 3.

With NO pacific involvement by USA (which went to the Atlantic) or the UK fleet (which went west in retaking Egypt) Japan can have all these by Japan 3.

Squirecam Â

@DarthMaximus:

I did say the Allies will have the lead for the first three rds and you can’t claim all that at once.

Aus, NZ, and Hi are questionble, as is Afr.
Certainly possible but I wouldn’t guarantee it.

The UK has a lot of options with its Indain ocean fleet-troops and can counter a lot of things.

Ger should also be down Wrus, Ukr, Belo and possibly trading Balk to the Russians.

IPC totals don’t mean much if both sides got credit for them.  How much cash does each side have to spend?

Yeah it could be 82-84 after rd 3 but that doesn’t mean Russia didn’t earn 30, UK 24 and US 38.

When Japan takes China, India, australia, etc, it holds them w/o trading(Unlike UKR/Karelia) So the 84 of the axis is its base. Assuming africa IPC are going to the axis.

Germany, based in EE, can still swap UKr/belo, giving it MORE than 40. I just used 40 as what it had as a base (perhaps LOSING Norway, West Russia, but gaining Africa)

Squirecam

@squirecam:

1. As I stated, this is a pure KGF. Generally, in such cases, the India troops are shuttled to retake Egypt. Which is subject to re-taking by Germany, if the bid was used in Africa.

2. Abandonment of India, leaves Japan with India held (and trading Persia). Thats 3.

3. USSR troops are either dead or have moved east (to swap Novo) by Japan 3. Leaving Japan with Bury, SFE and Yakut. 3 More.

4. Japan should have China/Sink by round 2-3. Thats 4.

5. If 1 transport is shuttled to Hawaii Japan 2. that transport can take NZ Japan 3. Add 1 more

6. If 1-2 transports are outside FIC Japan 2, they can take Australia Japan 3.

With NO pacific involvement by USA (which went to the Atlantic) or the UK fleet (which went west in retaking Egypt) Japan can have all these by Japan 3.

Squirecam Â

OK, granting those ideal conditions for Japan for the sake of argument, then the German side of your equation should not hold.  In pure KGF I see little reason to think Germany will be at 40IPCs.  Even by your own admission, UK shuttled inf from India; did they simply vanish in Africa?  And if Russia moves all forces west, they have likely taken WRus and more.  No decent Allies player will simply retreat on all fronts.

Re-reading you last couple of posts, I probably don’t run what is considered a “pure KGF” then.

Certainly by rd 3 the IPC could be fairly even, but nevertheless the Allies had 3 turns to make up for any net loss in taking out the Ger fleet in rd 2.

I wouldn’t run a pure KGF, b/c while I’d move the BB and trn to sz 20 and leave the DD there on US 1, I’d likely move them back to Sz 55 on US 2 (since I would have know the results of the US strike prior to non-com).  I probably would have bought US trns too, so it might be easy to just drop a trn there as well as in Sz 10.
And pending the numbers and board layout at that point, I may go instant US Pac strat with minimal aid to the Atlantic.  Since the Allies should still have a BB and AC present.
At this point it would be Russia/UK holding Ger, while US occupies Japan.

Just one possible route I’d consider, so I can’t say I’d be going pure KGF.

@goldenbearflyer:

@squirecam:

1. As I stated, this is a pure KGF. Generally, in such cases, the India troops are shuttled to retake Egypt. Which is subject to re-taking by Germany, if the bid was used in Africa.

2. Abandonment of India, leaves Japan with India held (and trading Persia). Thats 3.

3. USSR troops are either dead or have moved east (to swap Novo) by Japan 3. Leaving Japan with Bury, SFE and Yakut. 3 More.

4. Japan should have China/Sink by round 2-3. Thats 4.

5. If 1 transport is shuttled to Hawaii Japan 2. that transport can take NZ Japan 3. Add 1 more

6. If 1-2 transports are outside FIC Japan 2, they can take Australia Japan 3.

With NO pacific involvement by USA (which went to the Atlantic) or the UK fleet (which went west in retaking Egypt) Japan can have all these by Japan 3.

Squirecam Â

OK, granting those ideal conditions for Japan for the sake of argument, then the German side of your equation should not hold.  In pure KGF I see little reason to think Germany will be at 40IPCs.  Even by your own admission, UK shuttled inf from India; did they simply vanish in Africa?  And if Russia moves all forces west, they have likely taken WRus and more.  No decent Allies player will simply retreat on all fronts.

1. What can Russia take and HOLD? Only WR is guaranteed. Perhaps UKR or Karelia under certain conditions. But not both.

2. Germany is only guaranteed to lose (and be unable to trade) WR. This is made up by Egypt. Assuming a fleet sinking strategy, this means norway lasts until perhaps G3/4 (by which time Germany has africa)

3. The bid units are placed in Africa, so Egypt falls easily, and most of the UK units brought from egypt die in retaking it. Which allows the German re-conquest.

4. Therefore, germany should still be collecting 40 IPC.

Squirecam

@DarthMaximus:

Re-reading you last couple of posts, I probably don’t run what is considered a “pure KGF” then.

Certainly by rd 3 the IPC could be fairly even, but nevertheless the Allies had 3 turns to make up for any net loss in taking out the Ger fleet in rd 2.

I wouldn’t run a pure KGF, b/c while I’d move the BB and trn to sz 20 and leave the DD there on US 1, I’d likely move them back to Sz 55 on US 2 (since I would have know the results of the US strike prior to non-com).  I probably would have bought US trns too, so it might be easy to just drop a trn there as well as in Sz 10.
And pending the numbers and board layout at that point, I may go instant US Pac strat with minimal aid to the Atlantic.  Since the Allies should still have a BB and AC present.
At this point it would be Russia/UK holding Ger, while US occupies Japan.

Just one possible route I’d consider, so I can’t say I’d be going pure KGF.

Then you potentialy leave Germany stronger, by not having helped retake africa. Leaving USA 1v1 on Japan is dangerous, IF Japan has 40+ IPC (which these territories give it 44).

Japan does NOT need to move on Russia. All it needs to do is insure it holds those territories, while swapping Persia/Novo. Under such conditions, at 44 to 38 IPC, it can hold out vs USA alone indefinately.

Assuming Germany has Africa, UK has not enough income (after losing half its IPC) to threaten Germany by itself without USA aid. USSR still needs to swap in the east and west, so it wont be dead, but wont be overly strong either.

Squirecam

Squire: I was refering to this post…

Ok here my long winded take on the Channel Dash “gambit” I use gambit in place of another word just to be nice to people who play it.

The basic idea after looking at options on carrying it out is to in fact spend all of germanys income on G1 for a 40 IPC fleet consisting of 1 CV and 3 AP ( however building 3 subs proved a better option in terms of net IPC gained… but this will be proven latter)

Again as usual we assume this: a bid of zero to 5 IPC and no NA’s are being used. Further the Soviet player played safe with a attack on Belo and west russia ( both victories with average loses.

They also moved the sub in a manner that would not entail the german player attacking it.

The German player on his turn cannot bring the medd fleet into the atlantic on G1 or i feel he wont accomplish his immediate goals in three areas 1) egypt, 2) uk west medd BB, and 3) Uk DD off egypt.

In case #1 not taking egypt gives UK a critical fighter that he can use to either protect his carrier or defend/attack India and africa
In case #2 is obvious
In case #3 that DD will reinforce the carrier fleet and make Japans turn much harder.

Also if say the German atlantic sub attacks w/ fighters/bombers and takes out the west UK BB and in NCM the german BB and tranny move to SZ # 12 they will meet their demise at the hand of a Bomber, 2 tranny and a destroyer. ( allied loses: 2 tranny, German loses BB and tranny= 16 to 32 IPC). This would occur if they moved in sz #12 on G1 or G2.

Now the primary method of the plan was originally a “threat” of Sealion in addition to the idea of moving the baltic fleet to the medd. Thus if you built a CV and 3 AP you would be loading probably 1 tank/1 infantry on each for a total of 4 tanks/ 4 infantry= 16 hit points=about 3 hits first round.  The British player would have 1 fighter (USA), 2 Bombers ( one USA), 2 tanks,2 Inf,1 art= 18 points against 16 attacking points/ 8 hits vs.8 hits.

Now this option of Sealion is very remote because of 3 things: 1) your weaker, 2) to even maintain the odds your exchanging the luftwaffe instead of transports which is futile and 3) Your probably tossing the game away because in order to win you have to come from behind in both battles to get marginally ahead.

Now the British build a CV and Destroyer on Uk1 (save 2) and move the Soviet sub and the rest of her fleet= 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters=21 hit points= about 4 hits first round

against:

The german fleet of 1 cv, 5-6 fighters,2 subs,4 ap,1 dd, 1 bomber= 27-30 hit points= 5 hits first round.

after round one the brits lose all except 1 bb and 2 fighters= leaving 12 points=2 hits
Germans lose either 4 transports ( if you dont load them up) leaving 1 cv,5-6 fighters, 1 dd,2 ss, 1 bomber= 27-30 points …or keeping the trannys they have lost 1 cv,1 dd, 2 ss

Second round:

UK fleet is gone and germans take 2-3 more hits

leaving the german fleet with 7 hits total and ONE ship left (perhaps the CV if they are lucky)

Now for the money…

UK/Soviets  lost 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters= 8+24+8+16+24=80 ipc

GERMANY LOST: 4 AP,2 ss, 1 dd AND POSSIBLY 1 cv which is 32+16+12=60 and possibly (its real close and we are assuming a 6th german fighter) an additonal 16 IPC= 76 IPC total.

Now i can see that the USA player would like to kill that german carrier and leave the BB alone and move the american bomber and fighter from england along with the 2 trannys and destroyer and kill that carrier and both planes

1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 dd, 2 ap= 10/5 hits vs 1 cv and 2 fighter= 11/3 hits leaving the german fleet and 2 fighters gone in 2 rounds

Money= Germans cause 3 hits in 2 rounds and USA loses 3 ships 12+16=28 vs. German fleet/ fighters gone 24+16= 40 IPC gain for allies =12

If germany does not protect the carrier with fighters then its a net gain of 8 IPC for allies ( each side takes one hit).

Conclusion:

The allies have merely exchanged IPC with the german player in the North sea battle of Sz#6 The germans gained about 4 IPC from all of that

The Allies gain from the followup USA players turn when he finished off any german units.

Now if the german player built 3 subs instead of 3 tranny he gains one hit and on the second round the allies lose one hit leaving one additional german ship as escort in the event the CV is lucky enough to stay afloat.

Thus Germany has invested 40 IPC, left the Soviets alone to gain a full turn to reinforce themselves, possibly allowed the British player to keep his medd destroyer and or the territory of egypt because he had to have all his fighters within range of SZ#6. Thet means no fighters in africa. The basic moves for germany have all been ignored in order to facilitate some showdown in the north sea.

Also you have left a hole in the baltic that cant be closed.

Switch is correct. The threat is a failure as well as the channel dash idea is a total unmittigated failure.

Channel Dash is a total waste.

The worst thing about this as germany the land power you have played into the strength of the Allies by trying to challange them. You totally ignore the buildup of the russian campaign to play ‘catchup’ with the british fleet and simply exchange value. Id spend the 40 IPC in a more wiser manner to actually gain the net value as a result of land buys slowly gaining against the Russian player in back and forth land battles.

You have also gained marginally some tempo from the allies as they build/ rebuild her fleet, but the hole left in the baltic makes it easier for the allies to take france because now you have to protect germany AND france from harrasment invasions. This is a process that is accelerated by losing the baltic fleet.

For germany only either land buys or some naval buy in the baltic seem good for germany. If you buy for baltic either a CV or DD ( defence by installment idea)

If you want a fleet in the medd you better buy something for that.

Now you have this:

Germany has 36 IPC in baltic (DD, Trans, 2 subs). That fleet will die to 2 UK fighters + Bomber at a cost of perhaps 1-2 fighters.

So, anywhere from -16 to -26 IPC LOSS for Germany.

The darth numbers you quoted said a +9 IPC difference for Germany assuming a UK/USA fleet attack.

In which case, Germany goes from LOSING 16 to 26 IPC on the exchange, to GAINING 9.

Which means your statement was incorrect. There is not a less than 10 IPC difference. It could be 35.

1. i think to unify the fleet which is what we are discussing on G2, the German player is gonna have to buy the CV and 3 AP or 3 SS which is an investment of 40 IPC=
   one turns worth of builds. We are not talking about Uk going after a german fleet in the baltic. The German threat of sealion is only realized by 3 AP and CV… so that all german planes can participate.

2. I didnt quote Darth numbers… i quoted his conclusion and added the math i got was similiar. and secondly, i was not assuming a UK fleet attack but a Allied Block. I said the Allies were attacking ever.

@squirecam:

@DarthMaximus:

Re-reading you last couple of posts, I probably don’t run what is considered a “pure KGF” then.

Certainly by rd 3 the IPC could be fairly even, but nevertheless the Allies had 3 turns to make up for any net loss in taking out the Ger fleet in rd 2.

I wouldn’t run a pure KGF, b/c while I’d move the BB and trn to sz 20 and leave the DD there on US 1, I’d likely move them back to Sz 55 on US 2 (since I would have know the results of the US strike prior to non-com).  I probably would have bought US trns too, so it might be easy to just drop a trn there as well as in Sz 10.
And pending the numbers and board layout at that point, I may go instant US Pac strat with minimal aid to the Atlantic.  Since the Allies should still have a BB and AC present.
At this point it would be Russia/UK holding Ger, while US occupies Japan.

Just one possible route I’d consider, so I can’t say I’d be going pure KGF.

Then you potentialy leave Germany stronger, by not having helped retake africa. Leaving USA 1v1 on Japan is dangerous, IF Japan has 40+ IPC (which these territories give it 44).

Japan does NOT need to move on Russia. All it needs to do is insure it holds those territories, while swapping Persia/Novo. Under such conditions, at 44 to 38 IPC, it can hold out vs USA alone indefinately.

Assuming Germany has Africa, UK has not enough income (after losing half its IPC) to threaten Germany by itself without USA aid. USSR still needs to swap in the east and west, so it wont be dead, but wont be overly strong either.

Squirecam

I don’t think Germany will have Afr.
Between the ME, Aus and Safr the UK has 9 inf to counter multiple spots and a pretty good fleet.

Agian, I probably don’t run a pue KGF to begin with.

US only needs 1-2 trns for the Altantic at that point they have 2 trn loads already sitting in the UK that were left there on UK 1.

The UK and US can still go to Afr on UK 3, which now threatens SE and Russia Should be holding Ukr, Ger should not be able to trade that after R2 (if Ger spent more than 24 on Navy).

I don’t need a lot in Sz 55, heck 1 trn will get me Hi back, unless you intend to defend it.

I certainly don’t need the BB and DD in the Atantic since at best you are down to 4 ftrs, 1 bom and no ships.  1 US AC and a UK BB is more than enough to support the 3 UK trns that were bought on UK 2 and the new trn that gets placed on UK 4 when you move to Nor.

@Imperious:

Ok here my long winded take on the Channel Dash “gambit” I use gambit in place of another word just to be nice to people who play it.

The basic idea after looking at options on carrying it out is to in fact spend all of germanys income on G1 for a 40 IPC fleet consisting of 1 CV and 3 AP ( however building 3 subs proved a better option in terms of net IPC gained… but this will be proven latter)

Again as usual we assume this: a bid of zero to 5 IPC and no NA’s are being used. Further the Soviet player played safe with a attack on Belo and west russia ( both victories with average loses.

They also moved the sub in a manner that would not entail the german player attacking it.

The German player on his turn cannot bring the medd fleet into the atlantic on G1 or i feel he wont accomplish his immediate goals in three areas 1) egypt, 2) uk west medd BB, and 3) Uk DD off egypt.

In case #1 not taking egypt gives UK a critical fighter that he can use to either protect his carrier or defend/attack India and africa
In case #2 is obvious
In case #3 that DD will reinforce the carrier fleet and make Japans turn much harder.

Also if say the German atlantic sub attacks w/ fighters/bombers and takes out the west UK BB and in NCM the german BB and tranny move to SZ # 12 they will meet their demise at the hand of a Bomber, 2 tranny and a destroyer. ( allied loses: 2 tranny, German loses BB and tranny= 16 to 32 IPC). This would occur if they moved in sz #12 on G1 or G2.

I dont mean to sound rude or pretentious in the following analysis. But if I sound so I apologize. But Please read carefully the following….

1. Be aware that I have used a AC/3T, AC/2t/s  version, almost since the game came out.

 http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=2670&highlight=gencon+2004

2. Your bid (assuming one of 5), likely means a tank for an attack in Egypt. The attack [14 O vs 9D] will usually result in Egypt being German R1.

3. You have a sub + BB + 2-3 fighters attack the UK BB off Gibraltar. The expected result is NO GERMAN LOSS.

4. The Med transport takes an INF which takes GIBRALTAR. Therefore, only a UK Bomber and DD can reach to attack a BB, Transport and sub. Which is a BAD attack. (7O vs 7D) but 3 units and a free BB hit. The fleet combines in SZ7, so add a BB and Transport to what you had listed.

5. Given this, you totally underestmate what lives and combines in SZ7. Â

That is the main problem with your analysis.

I mean this sincerely. Like i just told Darth. You actually need to TRY these moves before commenting or having a “hunch” whether they will work or not.

Your analysis totally left the Med fleet vulnerable when in actuality is is NOT.

Squirecam

2. Your bid (assuming one of 5), likely means a tank for an attack in Egypt. The attack [14 O vs 9D] will usually result in Egypt being German R1.

3. You have a sub + BB + 2-3 fighters attack the UK BB off Gibraltar. The expected result is NO GERMAN LOSS.

4. The Med transport takes an INF which takes GIBRALTAR. Therefore, only a UK Bomber and DD can reach to attack a BB, Transport and sub. Which is a BAD attack. (7O vs 7D) but 3 units and a free BB hit. The fleet combines in SZ7, so add a BB and Transport to what you had listed.

5. Given this, you totally underestmate what lives and combines in SZ7.

Your post which i take as a rebuttal of the idea of german fleet unification occuring on G2 in Sea Zone #6 has nothing to do with the issue. Where do you even get this SZ#7 thing from? The British are blocking the Germans in SZ#6 and your medd fleet takes 3 turns to get to SZ#6  Additionally, Your basically telling us about what happens in Egypt and western Medd, which we allready both maintain is probably the case… and then using these examples to say that the conclusion regarding the german fleet unification is incorrect? Huh?

Squirecam i simply dont understand why you ignored this:

Now the primary method of the plan was originally a “threat” of Sealion in addition to the idea of moving the baltic fleet to the medd. Thus if you built a CV and 3 AP you would be loading probably 1 tank/1 infantry on each for a total of 4 tanks/ 4 infantry= 16 hit points=about 3 hits first round.  The British player would have 1 fighter (USA), 2 Bombers ( one USA), 2 tanks,2 Inf,1 art= 18 points against 16 attacking points/ 8 hits vs.8 hits.

Now this option of Sealion is very remote because of 3 things: 1) your weaker, 2) to even maintain the odds your exchanging the luftwaffe instead of transports which is futile and 3) Your probably tossing the game away because in order to win you have to come from behind in both battles to get marginally ahead.

Now the British build a CV and Destroyer on Uk1 (save 2) and move the Soviet sub and the rest of her fleet= 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters=21 hit points= about 4 hits first round

against:

The german fleet of 1 cv, 5-6 fighters,2 subs,4 ap,1 dd, 1 bomber= 27-30 hit points= 5 hits first round.

after round one the brits lose all except 1 bb and 2 fighters= leaving 12 points=2 hits
Germans lose either 4 transports ( if you dont load them up) leaving 1 cv,5-6 fighters, 1 dd,2 ss, 1 bomber= 27-30 points …or keeping the trannys they have lost 1 cv,1 dd, 2 ss

Second round:

UK fleet is gone and germans take 2-3 more hits

leaving the german fleet with 7 hits total and ONE ship left (perhaps the CV if they are lucky)

Now for the money…

UK/Soviets  lost 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters= 8+24+8+16+24=80 ipc

GERMANY LOST: 4 AP,2 ss, 1 dd AND POSSIBLY 1 cv which is 32+16+12=60 and possibly (its real close and we are assuming a 6th german fighter) an additonal 16 IPC= 76 IPC total.

Now i can see that the USA player would like to kill that german carrier and leave the BB alone and move the american bomber and fighter from england along with the 2 trannys and destroyer and kill that carrier and both planes

1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 dd, 2 ap= 10/5 hits vs 1 cv and 2 fighter= 11/3 hits leaving the german fleet and 2 fighters gone in 2 rounds

Money= Germans cause 3 hits in 2 rounds and USA loses 3 ships 12+16=28 vs. German fleet/ fighters gone 24+16= 40 IPC gain for allies =12

If germany does not protect the carrier with fighters then its a net gain of 8 IPC for allies ( each side takes one hit).

Conclusion:

The allies have merely exchanged IPC with the german player in the North sea battle of Sz#6 The germans gained about 4 IPC from all of that

The Allies gain from the followup USA players turn when he finished off any german units.

Now if the german player built 3 subs instead of 3 tranny he gains one hit and on the second round the allies lose one hit leaving one additional german ship as escort in the event the CV is lucky enough to stay afloat.

Thus Germany has invested 40 IPC, left the Soviets alone to gain a full turn to reinforce themselves, possibly allowed the British player to keep his medd destroyer and or the territory of egypt because he had to have all his fighters within range of SZ#6. Thet means no fighters in africa. The basic moves for germany have all been ignored in order to facilitate some showdown in the north sea.

Also you have left a hole in the baltic that cant be closed.

Switch is correct. The threat is a failure as well as the channel dash idea is a total unmittigated failure.

Channel Dash is a total waste.

The worst thing about this as germany the land power you have played into the strength of the Allies by trying to challange them. You totally ignore the buildup of the russian campaign to play ‘catchup’ with the british fleet and simply exchange value. Id spend the 40 IPC in a more wiser manner to actually gain the net value as a result of land buys slowly gaining against the Russian player in back and forth land battles.

You have also gained marginally some tempo from the allies as they build/ rebuild her fleet, but the hole left in the baltic makes it easier for the allies to take france because now you have to protect germany AND france from harrasment invasions. This is a process that is accelerated by losing the baltic fleet.

For germany only either land buys or some naval buy in the baltic seem good for germany. If you buy for baltic either a CV or DD ( defence by installment idea)

If you want a fleet in the medd you better buy something for that.

Again the UK player is blocking Germany in SZ#6 if the germans come up from the medd they can be blocked/Attacked by USA on USA1 or by UK2 with the British leaving  SZ#6 and attacking the smaller German fleet in #7. Then they place more builds and wait for G3 which by then is a total waste because Germany is using her air force on a 3 turn adventure, while the eastern front left with no defense.

@Imperious:

Squirecam i simply dont understand why you ignored this:

Now the British build a CV and Destroyer on Uk1 (save 2) and move the Soviet sub and the rest of her fleet= 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters=21 hit points= about 4 hits first round

against:

The german fleet of 1 cv, 5-6 fighters,2 subs,4 ap,1 dd, 1 bomber= 27-30 hit points= 5 hits first round.

after round one the brits lose all except 1 bb and 2 fighters= leaving 12 points=2 hits
Germans lose either 4 transports ( if you dont load them up) leaving 1 cv,5-6 fighters, 1 dd,2 ss, 1 bomber= 27-30 points …or keeping the trannys they have lost 1 cv,1 dd, 2 ss

Second round:

UK fleet is gone and germans take 2-3 more hits

leaving the german fleet with 7 hits total and ONE ship left (perhaps the CV if they are lucky)

1. Because your MATH, as you like to say, is incorrect. 21 D = 3.5 hits. So its is an average of 3 or 4 the first round.

2. The second round, you have Uk with 1 BB and 2 fighters (12). Then you say UK has 2-3 hits. Except the expected hits are 2, NOT 2-3.

3. Besides THOSE errors, you forget that G1 they lose 3-4 transports. They still have 2 SUBS. If either hits, the BB is sunk, WITHOUT GETTING TO HIT BACK. So your expected hits back could be 1-2 rather than 2.

In essence, to prove your “theory” you have UK getting far more hits than it otherwise would have.

In the attack, Germany is likely to lose its 4 transports.  Perhaps even 5 hits. THATS ABOUT IT.  BUT CERTAINLY NOT 7.

In essence, your errors are one on top of the other. Because more survives, more merges in SZ 7, which means germany gains alot more by doing the move than you say it does.

Squirecam

Oh, for goodness sake, Imperious and squire should just play this out. :lol:  I would love to see it in action, seriously.

Now the British build a CV and Destroyer on Uk1 (save 2) and move the Soviet sub and the rest of her fleet= 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters=20 hit points= about
3-4 hits first round.

against:

The german fleet of 1 cv, 5-6 fighters,2 subs,4 ap,1 dd, 1 bomber= 27-30 hit points= 5 hits first round.

I also rounded up the germans because its possible they would have only 27 for G2 attack on SZ#6 because possibly the Soviets too one out or Egypt needed one.
This is not fuzzy math.

If the british take 5 hits from her fleet (1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters)… leaves a 1/2 BB and 2 fighters

after round one the brits lose all except 1 bb and 2 fighters= leaving 12 points=2 hits worth
Germans lose either 4 transports ( if you dont load them up) leaving 1 cv,5-6 fighters, 1 dd,2 ss, 1 bomber= 27-30 points …or keeping the trannys they have lost 1 cv,1 dd, 2 ss

Nothing wrong here either. If you dont like fractions i guess i can just give the germans only 4 hits due to 27 rather than 30.

The german fleet of 1 cv, 5-6 fighters,2 subs,1 dd, 1 bomber is left= 27-30= 5 hits
Vs.
The British fleet of 1 BB and 2 fighters… 12= 2 hits

germans takes out UK fleet
Uk takes out 2 german subs.

Germans lost 4 AP and 2 SS= 48 IPC
UK/Soviets  lost 1 ss,1 bb,1 ap,1 cv,1 dd, 2 fighters= 8+24+8+16+24=80 ipc

Net +32 allied loss

German fleet is 1 dd and 1 carrier w/ 2 planes.= 14= 2 hits
On USA’s second turn they arrive with 2 fighters, 3 Bombers, 2 transports and cruiser ( built 2 bombers) =21 or 4 hits which is good by to german fleet, and german fleet gets 2 transports

Germany loses 16+24+12= 52
American loses 16 ipc

net -36 allied gain

allies gain 4 IPC from this exchange.

Oh, for goodness sake, Imperious and squire should just play this out. cheesy  I would love to see it in action, seriously.

Hey is not just me saying this Darth and ncscswitch have the same opinion… while U-505 is pretty much against the idea as well.

If i write a paper can i also say " hey dont argue with me i wrote a paper on this" It seems to be a strong thing to hide behind these days.

Your buying bombers now???

If USA were to be dumb enough to buy them, you would simply hold back the CV from the attack to merge it in SZ7 with the BB,  sacrificing a fighter if need be, or retreat after thrashing the UK fleet and leaving the UK BB.

2 bombers is a waste of IPC and wont help the allies much at all.

I cant see how this would be a good allied purchase….

Squirecam

@squirecam:

Your buying bombers now???

If USA were to be dumb enough to buy them, you would simply hold back the CV from the attack to merge it in SZ7 with the BB, sacrificing a fighter if need be, or retreat after thrashing the UK fleet and leaving the UK BB.

2 bombers is a waste of IPC and wont help the allies much at all.

I cant see how this would be a good allied purchase….

Squirecam

He’s got you there, Imperious.  I agree with much of your analysis, but don’t see why you need 2 bom to make it work.  We need a cage match to settle this.  I love Days of Wonder; it’s possible to observe some of their online games.  Would love to watch you two duke it out, squire as Axis.

Your buying bombers now???

If USA were to be dumb enough to buy them, you would simply hold back the CV from the attack to merge it in SZ7 with the BB,  sacrificing a fighter if need be, or retreat after thrashing the UK fleet and leaving the UK BB.

2 bombers is a waste of IPC and wont help the allies much at all.

I cant see how this would be a good allied purchase….

Well I’m not exactly doing anything “now” it was just a possible counter to the German unification that is now 3 turns in the making…

If your gonna “now” not bring in the carrier and leave it in the Baltic, then I guess UK can save additional 24 Point BB from the loss ledger. Now since your not going out of of that hole. I guess the Americans can then kill the other German fleet in SZ #7 instead which is much better on paper in terms of net IPC gain to Allies, While i also gained from the UK battleship.

Should i do the extrapolations on this?

Or are you now gonna say "hey then ill just leave may force in the Baltic and leave the medd fleet in the medd… which is in fact the starting point of the game… so why is this a good idea after all of this?

UK and USA are in a better position. Once that UK BB survives the UK2 attack its totally over… I just rebuild my fleet and things are even worse for germany.

I think this idea was one of those “window of opportunity” strategies… Its not a long term battle because germany only has the one wad of ships to play with.

BTW this is much better discourse than before. Congratulations. :-D

I agree with much of your analysis, but don’t see why you need 2 bom to make it work.

The idea was to sweep up the balance of baltic fleet which is out of position.

Yes but i was offering what i thought was the counter to unification. If now they say that “gee i never planned on such an idea ever” then i guess I would have to try something else in terms of counter because now this is going from an active plan to a mere threat of a plan.

I suppose fighters could work as well  but they dont reach SZ 6…. ok so i got 30+ to spend… so whats wrong with 2 bombers?.. what would you suggest the build be… remember it has to reach SZ # 7 or 6 by USA2.

I can get to Sea Zone 6 with fighters only

I suppose a different force would required if i went against the medd fleet leaving and going to #7  That is a sub, BB and tranny= 4 hit fleet/ 1 hit per round

The USA force could go after that instead.

okay goys like sewiously…

instead of all this talking, let’s see this played out in practice… I’d like to see this discussions carried out in actual play, as in “here’s my play, how do you counter THAT”.

For analysis purposes, it’d be best to do this with No Luck, so you can see what the expected result would be.

I dont play online. Can you just play it out yourself… or better yet you play germany and follow the script. Ill post the counters or others can do it instead. Remember you have to follow the plan to its logical conclusion. Buy the 3 AP and 1 CV on turn one, and goto sz 6 and attack on G2

Also your medd fleet has to take gibralter and post at west medd. on G2 it has to come out together at #7

Ill post UK moves.

Do Low luck and whatever else you use. so we can compare different results for average.

Remember we allready went this route and got not takers. I guess that was an idea that needs no testing… like most scientific theroy it does not need to be proven ( note hidden sarcasm)

@Imperious:

Now the British build a CV and Destroyer on Uk1 (save 2)

Invasion of London?