Aa-guns and factories ownership



  • Germany invades egypt. Builds an industrial complex there later on, and after some time an aa-gun too.

    Japan develops rockets and ships an aa-gun into egypt.

    Now egypt has 2 aa guns, one german and one japanese, and one german industry.

    Egypt is then liberated by US. what happens?

    industry becomes british?
    both aa-guns become british? or american?

    So, us liberated. and lets say all the stuff there became british. Now japan again captures egypt. are all traces of german ownership of the aa-gun and the factory gone, so now japan owns everything? both the 2 aa’s and the factory?



  • 1.  Egypt starts off British.

    2.  Germany conquers it and builds the IC and AA, which are German.

    3.  Japan ships an AA gun to Egypt, which is Japanese in a German territory (use a national-control marker to indicate).

    4.  US liberates Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and both AA guns turn British.

    5.  Japan retakes Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and both AA guns turn Japanese.

    • All of this assumes that all capitals are under the original nation’s control - it gets trickier when they aren’t.

    ~Josh



  • Hey,

    Yeah I would have to agree 100% with Out Side Lime on that.


  • 2007 AAR League

    this issue sorta came up. OOB rules states that AA belong to a nation, but can be captured. If liberated, they are supposed to return to the control of the original owner. Now I have heard several other interpretations, one being that they are owned by whatever country owns the territory they are in (i think this is incorrect, as it would allow bizarre situations where AA guns continually shift ownership, allowing them to move multiple times.
    Also, I dont think AA should transfer control to other allies if they are liberated, as this could encourage bizarre situations with Rockets, where one side allows their guns to be captured, in order to give them to the other ally with the tech. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the OOB rules, which states they remain under the control of the initial owner. Not sure what the LHTR are, and Im too lazy to look them up. Anyone know what the official interpretation is?
    Mateooo



  • Hey,

    Here is what I found in the LHTR 2006 updated rules:

    “Usable by invading forces: If a territory is captured, any AA gun(s) there are also captured. Their new owner is the player owning the territory.”

    I would think that to be interpreted to mean that if US or Russia retook Egypt that because it would go back to the UK (depending on other circumstances [reguarding capital occupation]) that both AA guns would now also belong to the UK.



  • thanks for the clarifications josh.

    we’ll wait with the captured capitals and mobile industries until we get there 😉



  • agree with you losttribe, its where we are getting also. I was a little confused about “original owner” at one point also. thinking “original owner” could mean the one who build the industry in the first place…



  • Hey Sigaam,

    “original Owner” I don’t think would always apply to the builder of the IC. For example as Japan I have taken held and built an IC on India many times before the UK built one.

    Maybe you were referring to your above mentioned scenario with UK’s IC in Egypt, if so disregard above statement.



  • I believe that AA guns revert to their ORIGINAL OWNER when liberated.

    So if you had an AA gun that was produced by the Americans, that got captured by the Germans, if the UK captured the territory that that AA gun was in, control of the AA gun would go to the America player.



  • Yeah,

    That would seen logical newpaintbrush. The only down fall would be is how do you remember if several rounds go by?



  • @losttribe04:

    Yeah,

    That would seen logical newpaintbrush. The only down fall would be is how do you remember if several rounds go by?

    When an AA gun gets captured, I pop a control marker of the original owner’s under that AA gun.



  • Hey New Paint Brush,

    I have to hand it to you the right answer is always the easy answer in this game. I find my self and others caught up on simple technicalities. I don’t know about you but its always refreshing to have an outside opinion on trivial things like this.

    Thanks for your input,

    Lost Tribe 04



  • yw

    XD



  • Hey New Paint Brush,

    I’m not so computer savvy, could you interpit “yw” and “XD”

    Thank you



  • yw = “you’re welcome”.

    XD is a smiley.  Try leaning your head so your left eye is on bottom and your right eye on top.

    🙂 is a happy face.
    😞 is a frowny face.
    XD is a REALLY happy face.

    T_T is a crying face.  (for that one, you just look right at it)
    o.O is like “I’m looking at you with an eyebrow raised”.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Do owls have eyebrows?



  • @newpaintbrush:

    I believe that AA guns revert to their ORIGINAL OWNER when liberated.

    So if you had an AA gun that was produced by the Americans, that got captured by the Germans, if the UK captured the territory that that AA gun was in, control of the AA gun would go to the America player.

    Excellent!  So it goes like this:

    1.  Egypt starts off British.

    2.  Germany conquers it and builds the IC and AA, which are German.

    3.  Japan ships an AA gun to Egypt, which is Japanese in a German territory (use a national-control marker (NM) to indicate the Japanese AA while it is in a German-controlled territory).

    4.  US liberates Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and both AA guns turn British, but the Japanese AA keeps its NM, and the German AA gets a German NM underneath it.  Britain has captured and controls those AA units like normal, the NMs are simply there as an indicator of which Axis power their control reverts to, should they be liberated by either Axis power.

    5.  Japan retakes Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and the Japanese-marked AA become Japanese.  You can remove the Japanese NM.  The German-marked AA gun reverts to German control, and keeps its German NM.

    • All of this assumes that all capitals are under the original nation’s control - it gets trickier when they aren’t.

    … I think I might just mark my AA Guns with a little patch of colour to represent their ownership… would solve the problem of marking and unmarking using NMs, and you could just obey the following points:

    a) When an AA is in its original owner’s territory, the original owner controls it.
    b) When an AA is in a friendly territory, the original owner controls it.
    c) When an AA is in an enemy-controlled territory, that enemy controls it.

    ~Josh



  • Hey,

    That sounds to me like the correct lawyer text book answer to our scenario.  🙂


  • 2007 AAR League

    @OutsideLime:

    Excellent!  So it goes like this:

    1.  Egypt starts off British.

    2.  Germany conquers it and builds the IC and AA, which are German.

    3.  Japan ships an AA gun to Egypt, which is Japanese in a German territory (use a national-control marker (NM) to indicate the Japanese AA while it is in a German-controlled territory).

    4.  US liberates Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and both AA guns turn British, but the Japanese AA keeps its NM, and the German AA gets a German NM underneath it.  Britain has captured and controls those AA units like normal, the NMs are simply there as an indicator of which Axis power their control reverts to, should they be liberated by either Axis power.

    4.5 UK retreats the AA guns to Moscow.  Place a UK control marker underneat the AA gun with the German/Japanese control marker.  How high can you build your AA gun with control markers?  Maybe we should just play J-J-J-Jenga instead?

    @OutsideLime:

    5.  Japan retakes Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and the Japanese-marked AA become Japanese.  You can remove the Japanese NM.  The German-marked AA gun reverts to German control, and keeps its German NM.

    • All of this assumes that all capitals are under the original nation’s control - it gets trickier when they aren’t.

    … I think I might just mark my AA Guns with a little patch of colour to represent their ownership… would solve the problem of marking and unmarking using NMs, and you could just obey the following points:

    a) When an AA is in its original owner’s territory, the original owner controls it.
    b) When an AA is in a friendly territory, the original owner controls it.
    c) When an AA is in an enemy-controlled territory, that enemy controls it.

    ~Josh



  • Crazy.  Never thought of that.

    ~Josh


  • Moderator

    @OutsideLime:

    @newpaintbrush:

    I believe that AA guns revert to their ORIGINAL OWNER when liberated.

    So if you had an AA gun that was produced by the Americans, that got captured by the Germans, if the UK captured the territory that that AA gun was in, control of the AA gun would go to the America player.

    5.  Japan retakes Egypt.  Egypt, the IC, and the Japanese-marked AA become Japanese.  You can remove the Japanese NM.  The German-marked AA gun reverts to German control, and keeps its German NM.

    • All of this assumes that all capitals are under the original nation’s control - it gets trickier when they aren’t.

    I believe this is wrong.  I don’t believe AAs retain thier nationality.
    In this case both would become Japan’s, since Egy is an allied ter it would be treated as if UK had bought the IC and built 2 AAs of its own.

    A similar situation can occur in Wrus.  Say Russia moves an AA there to defend but Germany takes it, claims the AA, then UK counters and wins the AA on the UK turn.  The AA does not revert back to Russia (b/c the ter was German to start the game), all Russian control was lost once Germany recalimed Wrus.

    Had this taken place on Arch, then the AA would revert back to Russian control with the UK liberation.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I believe this is wrong.  I don’t believe AAs retain thier nationality.

    WHY do you believe that?

    The rulebook does say control of the AA gun reverts to the original owner.



  • I was originally of that mind too, but my mind has been changed.  The rulebook is quite clear about it.

    “If you liberate a territory containing a captured antiaircraft gun, control reverts to the original owner.”  OM, pg 25.

    “Original Owner” means, to me, the nation that built (or started the game with) the AA gun.

    ~Josh


  • Moderator

    Yes, In terms of liberation or the original owner of the territory.

    But in this case, Japan is not liberating anything, they are reclaiming Egy, which is originally British.

    If the two guns are moved to Lib, THEN Japan takes it over, both guns become German as does the ter.

    I’ll have to look at the exact wording though.  I could be wrong.


  • Moderator

    @OutsideLime:

    I was originally of that mind too, but my mind has been changed.  The rulebook is quite clear about it.Â

    "If you liberate a territory containing a captured antiaircraft gun, control reverts to the original owner."  OM, pg 25.

    “Original Owner” means, to me, the nation that built (or started the game with) the AA gun.

    ~Josh

    That’s possible OR “original owner” could refer to the Territory itself.  Since you are dealing with liberation.

    EDIT:

    In this case Japan IS NOT liberating Egy, they are CONQUERING it.  It doesn’t matter if they conquered it the previous turn as well.


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