• 2007 AAR League

    Just curious, what would a “reverse infantry” be worth to you - a unit that attacked on a 2 but defended on a 1. Also 3 IPCs? for 4 you get a unit that does 2/2 plus boosts your Inf, so it would have to be less than that. However, attacking is better than defending (?) so it should be more than 3.

    Okay, maybe that would be a dumb unit.

    What about for 2 IPCs - what kind of unit would you expect for that? that could be a neat little twist. Or for 1 IPC. A 1/0 or a 0/1 unit?

    What about for a 1/1 unit that could move 2 spaces? Or a “wall” unit - it would not attack or defend, but take one hit to kill and it couldn’t move in combat, and only in NCM with an Inf to pull it along (engineers or whatever).

  • 2007 AAR League

    For a 2/1 I would pay 3 … same as a 1/2


  • For inverted INF, 3 IPC would be good.

    A 1-0 unit?  Pure fodder.  If it were $1, I can see it being bought, perhaps… risky though unless you already had very nice available units.

    a 0-1?  I don;t see it being bought unless it was only $1.  $3 would then get you 3 combat points, all defensive.  Likewise $3 buys you 3 combat points with INF, 2 defense, 1 attack.


  • @ncscswitch:

    A 1-0 unit?  Pure fodder.  If it were $1, I can see it being bought, perhaps… risky though unless you already had very nice available units.

    that would be cool in classic just plop 24 of them down and you get 4 hits on averge while 8 inf would get one hit on averagel.

  • 2007 AAR League

    You also have to account for the “hit point” of the unit in evaluating what it’s worth - if for $10 you can add 10 hits to your force before it loses any attack strength, that’s a good deal.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Actually, I think a 1/0 or a 0/1 should be worth $2.

    To see how the 0/1 unit performed defensively, I simulated a 30 IPC defensive battle:

    16 inf attacking and 10 inf defending:
    16 inf vs 10 inf

    Then I simulated 30 IPC of 0/1 units at $2:

    16 inf attacking and 15 bombers defending:
    16 inf vs. 15 bmb

    As you can see the inf defenders held off the attackers 27% of the time, but the bmb defenders held them off 36% of the time.

    So you get a unit that dollar for dollar defends better than inf, but attacks worse (but still is good fodder).

    As for the 1/0 unit for $2, it attacks way better than arm, so dollar for dollar you’d be getting a better attacking unit that defends poorly (but still is good fodder):

    10 arm attacking 12 inf:
    10 arm attacking 12 inf

    25 inf attacking 12 inf:
    25 inf attacking 12 inf

    $2 is a fairer price.  $1 is just stupid cheap and would totally unbalance the whole game beyond belief.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Would a 0/0 unit be worth a dollar? $1 for fodder, but no attack/defence value? Guess you could simulate them in the attack with Transports, but there’s nothing that defends on 0…

    The question, I suppose, is what is the “hit point” of a unit worth? Everyone is obsessed with the hit/attack values, but the hit point is just as important if not more - as akreider2’s formula shows where attack strength correlates to unit count squared times punch per unit - count is actually more of a factor than punch, since it is squared.

    Obviously, a 0/0 unit is worth more than $0 - or you could buy limitless amounts of them and you could never be beaten in an attack.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Let’s try to simulate:  30 IPC of 0/0 at $1 (use classic where defending ss don’t get sneak attack)

    10 ac and 10 fgt vs. 25 ss
    hmmm….can’t do this one.  Frood, looks like your roller will only roll 1 round of combat for this one.  Can you take a look at this bug?

    30 trn and 10 fgt vs. 25 ss
    30 trn and 10 fg vs. 25 ss


  • I think i read a paper somewhere about unit pricing and that also included this thing.

    Basicaly the cost of a unit is (movement+attack+defence)/2 + hitpoints.

    This goes for all land units.
    Inf (1 + 2 + 1)/2 + 1  =3
    art ( 2+ 2+ 1 )/2 +1    =4
    arm (3 + 3 + 2)/2 +1 = 5

    Reason was that people would pay 1 ipcsfor a 0/0 unit that could absorb hits.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @rjclayton:

    Let’s try to simulate:  30 IPC of 0/0 at $1 (use classic where defending ss don’t get sneak attack)

    10 ac and 10 fgt vs. 25 ss
    hmmm….can’t do this one.  Frood, looks like your roller will only roll 1 round of combat for this one.  Can you take a look at this bug?

    30 trn and 10 fgt vs. 25 ss
    30 trn and 10 fg vs. 25 ss

    I’m guessing it’s because the subs submerge when there are only air units left - that’s a feature, not a bug. No time right now to check it out.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Actually, a 2/1 unit that counted as an infantry unit (for transport purposes) and could be augmented to 2/2 with an attached artillery unit (ie the exact inverse of an infantryman while still representing flesh and blood units) would be worth about 4 IPC to me.

    A 0/1 unit would be worth 2 IPC
    A 1/0 unit would be worth 2 IPC to me

    I don’t think anything should be worth 1 IPC because you’d run into end game times with nations buying full compliments of just that unit, if only to have fodder.


  • The 0/0 “wall” unit is pretty cool… I like the idea that Inf have to drag them around in NCM.

    Also you could add a stipulation that No territory can hold more Walls than the income value of the territory - that way you don’t have to worry about people going overboard with stacking units.

    ~Josh

  • 2007 AAR League

    @OutsideLime:

    The 0/0 “wall” unit is pretty cool… I like the idea that Inf have to drag them around in NCM.

    Also you could add a stipulation that No territory can hold more Walls than the income value of the territory - that way you don’t have to worry about people going overboard with stacking units.

    ~Josh

    Now we’re getting somewhere! In ABattlemap, you could just represent them with flags or something. It would make it a much more defensive game though.


  • How dare you accuse engineers of being mere walls!

    But really, i dont like the idea of any unit being 0/1 or 1/0.  A 2/1 unit would cost 3.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cobert:

    But really, i dont like the idea of any unit being 0/1

    So you don’t like the idea of a transport then?

  • 2007 AAR League

    Isn’t there a version with truck convoys to allow Inf to move 2 or something? Land transports, neat idea.


  • @rjclayton:

    @Cobert:

    But really, i dont like the idea of any unit being 0/1

    So you don’t like the idea of a transport then?

    Ugh, you knew what I was saying.

    Transports serve a bigger purpose.  A 0/1 unit is just fodder and you might as well spend one more IPC to build something that defends better and can attack.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Don’t say “just fodder” - if you are playing D&D, would you ever just say, “Oh, it’s just extra hit points”? Fodder is as important, if not more so, than punch.


  • But fodder is worthless without heavy units to back them up.

    It simply would create a new variable in combat where folks calculated hits from the heavy units, and damage from defenders, and ran the math to see if they could get trhough the Defender before the fodder ran out (not much different from today actually, except that with INF the enemy fodder can turn around and smack you if it remains intact 🙂 )

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Not really.  30 Transports and 1 Submarine attacking 2 Battleships, 2 Fighters and 1 Aircraft Carrier is still enough of a punch to win. 😛

    The walls are pretty good.  1 IPC for a 0/0 move 0 build on any territory you start with up to the value of that territory.  Reminds me of Replacements counters in Avalon Hill’s Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich, actually.

    And, for the record, when it comes to someone else’s hit points in D&D my cleric has always had the attitude of “great, more HP I have to heal!”


  • OK…

    If 1/2 is $3
    Then a 1/1 unit would be $2 right?

    So a 1/0 or 0/1 land unit would be $1

  • 2007 AAR League

    Then a 3/3 armour that moves 2 would be 6 or 7 IPC, right?  Wrong, it doesn’t work that way.


  • So it a 1/0 or 0/1 is $2, what do you charge for a 1/1?


  • @froodster:

    Don’t say “just fodder” - if you are playing D&D, would you ever just say, “Oh, it’s just extra hit points”? Fodder is as important, if not more so, than punch.

    I probably would.  HP is already a part of the game and is at its core the same as fodder, just like infantry are already part of axis and allies and are typically used as fodder and not main attacking units.  Adding a way cheap unit to the game is kind of throwing off the balance.  Buy tons of 0/1 units for 1 IPC each and then get a few tanks and planes and youre on a roll.

    And by the way, I ran one D&D campaign ever, and I didnt really like the system.  My friends said it was too hard to learn (but it really wasnt) but I felt it was kind of dice heavy.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    So it a 1/0 or 0/1 is $2, what do you charge for a 1/1?

    Driver2: Hey, hey Willy how’s it goin?
    Toll Booth Willy: Hey can’t complain pup. How’s by you?
    Driver2: Oh great great. How much?
    Toll Booth Willy: The state charge is a dawla twenty five pup.
    Driver2: That’s fine. Now should I give you the money or should I just shove the quarters directly up your fat ass Hee Heeeee (throws quarters, drives off)
    Toll Booth Willy: WHY YOU FCKIN HAAAD ON! I’LL FCKING COTTONFISH YOU’RE FCKING HEAD WITH A LOUISVILLE FCKIN SLUGGAH! WHADDYA THINKA THAT SS FCK?!

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