A "Sink"ing feeling with an IC in place


  • 2007 AAR League

    Trust me, you don’t need an IC in India along with a Sink IC to hold Japan.  The one - that’s 1 - IC in Sink held up Japan for the entire game.  Don’t be fooled into believing you need an IIC as well.  Go read our thread in the tourney section.  You’ll see what went down.



  • 1. “Go read our thread in the tourney section.”

    Next time, post the thread reference.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=8611.0

    2.  "Trust me, you don’t need an IC in India along with a Sink IC to hold Japan. "

    I don’t trust you.  😮

    (edit) fixed typo (/edit)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Well excuuuuuuse me mister perfect owly owl.  I think your bong’s calling, better go answer it.  And don’t trust me then.  Not like that matters in something like this.  Honestly this thread jumped off the rails from the second and third posts.  So much for actually attempting to figure out a solution for an encounter such as this.



  • The only solution I see for the axis is for Japan to react quickly and work around the IC while Germany uses its airforce to immobilize the UK’s reinforcement plan.



  • Agreed.

    You have to act QUICKLY to counter a Sinkiang IC.

    Strong China strike on J1.
    Land AF in range of of Sinkiang
    And if you have strong reason to suspect that the Sinkiang IC will be built, land the Japan ARM in Manchuria for even more punch for the attack on J2.

    If you let Russia reinforce it with their eastern and central Asia forces, and possibly even UK AF units, then you have going to have a devil of a time cracking it.  And as I psoted earlier, by the tiem you do get enough force massed to take it, the forces just pull back to Novo or even Moscow further slowing the Japan advance.



  • @General_D.Fox:

    Well excuuuuuuse me mister perfect owly owl.  I think your bong’s calling, better go answer it.  And don’t trust me then.  Not like that matters in something like this.  Honestly this thread jumped off the rails from the second and third posts.  So much for actually attempting to figure out a solution for an encounter such as this.

    “Ding dong!”

    “wha?  whozzat?”

    “It’s me!”

    “Me hoo?”

    “Ur bong!”

    “YEY!”

    OK, well, it’s only 6:46 (start post) right now, and I don’t have to sleep until 10.  So I will write one of these wunnerful text wall posts that I KNOW YOU ARE ALL SO FOND OF!

    Okay, okay, old man grumpiness and random ranting and paranoid shifty-eye-ness “I don’t trust ANYONE” aside . . . I don’t even trust Caspian Sub, you know, as much as I generally like their articles . . . I have to Find Out Myself . . .

    You MAY perhaps remember some time ago, ncsswitch posted a thread advocating, I think it was, ICs in Asia to pump out infantry and artillery, and I responded - for the same exact reasons - that I would not personally advocate such a strategy.  Instead, I advocated - as I advocate now - using infantry as a forward force, and tanks and infantry as the rear reserves to bolster attacks at different locations (along with Japanese air support starting J3 at latest).

    Now, I want you to look at an Axis and Allies game board, or to at least picture one in your mind.  The area you are thinking of should be the Asian coast.

    For various reasons, I advocate attacking China on J1, simply because that US fighter can cause enormous problems for Japan or Germany early on.

    Apart from that, there are different targets of opportunity, depending on the Allied moves.  Possible Allied moves to this point include 6 Russian inf 1 UK fighter in Burytia, UK industrial complex plus Russian reinforcements at India, unification of the UK fleet southwest of Australia . . . there are quite a few that I will not go into at this time, as I wish to stick to the main topic, but I will say that EACH of those has its OWN set of “proper” Axis responses.

    Now, think about a US industrial complex in Ssinkiang.  What does that support?  What will it produce?  What sort of threat does it pose?

    My answer to that question is that an industrial complex in Ssinkiang, by itself, provides some additional protection to Russia, but it does not threaten anything, and it slows down the US progress elsewhere (because of the cost of the industrial complex that means other units that were not built).

    This SEEMS like a great deal of supposition on my part, but think about this.

    Suppose that you use your Japanese transports to alternately shuttle infantry between Japan/French Indochina, and Japan/Burytia or Manchuria.  So we will suppose that it is about Japan’s third turn, and you have infantry at China (with a few more infantry behind that), infantry at French Indochina (with a few more infantry behind that), and infantry at Burytia.  Now ALSO say that you have tanks at French Indochina, or at Burytia, and that you have fighters and bombers in range of any heavily defended Allied territories near the coast (namely, Ssinkiang, India, and Yakut).  Now, in essence, Japan has TREMENDOUS ATTACKING POWER that can HIT DIFFERENT VITAL TARGETS.

    Now, Yakut will almost certainly fall no matter what (because it is simply not cost effective for Russia to defend that territory).  But Ssinkiang and India are key.  If Ssinkiang falls, most direct route from the Asian coast to Moscow is clear.  If India falls, Japan gains a better territory from which to help Germany attack the Caucasus and Africa.

    There are different ways in which both Ssinkiang and India can be adequately defended at that point.

    1.  Horrible Axis rolls. (this isn’t something that can be counted on by either side)

    2.  India and Ssinkiang industrial complexes

    3.  Tremendous commitment on the part of Russia, which will cause a horrible weakness in the Russian vs German game. (This shouldn’t be considered a valid option)

    4.  Large US fleet that forced Japan to not commit resources to tanks.

    Now, this is where picturing the board is important.  Picture what happens if Japan COMMITS to India and retreats from Ssinkiang, or COMMITS to Ssinkiang, and retreats from India.  (I mention both, because at this time, I am not limiting this post to discussing the Ssinkiang industrial complex).

    If Japan commits to Ssinkiang, it should have a couple infantry and a lot of tanks in Ssinkiang.  The defending power should be entirely sufficient to stop Russia from counterattacking.  Why is this a safe assumption?  Because it is ASSUMED that the Allies are WEAK in Novosibirsk and Kazakh, so the Ssinkiang attack was safe.  If those territories were not weak to begin with, Japan should not have committed to Ssinkiang!

    Since Japan pulled back from French Indochina, it will now have a decent amount of infantry in Kwangtung.

    If Japan commits to India, it should have a couple infantry and a lot of tanks in India.  Again, the defending power should be entirely sufficient to stop Russia from counterattacking, because it is assumed that the Allies are WEAK in Persia, so the Indian attack was safe.  If Persia wasn’t weak to begin with, Japan should not have committed to India!

    Since Japan pulled back from Ssinkiang, it will now have a decent amount of infantry in French Indochina.

    The only way ONE of the above will not be true is if there are heavy concentrations of Allies in Ssinkiang, India, Novosibirsk/Evenki, AND Persia.  That is just too much to believe in most games.

    Now, Japan’s attack DOES leave the other route entirely open to Allied attack.  But what if the Allies DO attack?  It doesn’t matter, because Japanese tanks from China can attack French Indochina next turn, along with the Kwangtung infantry reserve plus Japanese air, OR Japanese tanks from India can attack Ssinkiang next turn with the French Indochina infantry reserve plus Japanese air plus transported units from Japan.  Any heavy commitment on the part of the Allies is easily countered by Japan.  Any LIGHT commitment is STILL easily countered by Japan, with a few infantry plus its gigantic air force.

    The only thing that Japan really need fear is a mighty Allied force in China, from which 9 IPC of territories can be attacked (Kwangtung, French Indochina, and Manchuria).  But EVEN THAT is not a real impediment, because a mighty Allied force in China mean the almost certain collapse of India/Caucasus.  The Allies will probably NOT WANT to commit to China, just when they need all their strength at Moscow.  (Even if the Allies do unite at China, Japan can hold out a long time at Manchuria, counterattacking into French Indochina with transports, Kwangtung from transports/Manchurian forces, and China itself to cut off Allied reinforcements).

    So you see, the way I respond to a Ssinkiang IC is how I ALWAYS respond to the Allies - with transports and tanks initially, followed by either fighters if the US built a Pacific fleet, or tanks and transports if there is no real Pacific fleet to contend with.  I do not usually get a lot of infantry, because I use Japanese transports to pull infantry off the islands.

    (edit) ended at 7:41 PM AGH (/edit)


  • 2007 AAR League

    My approach with Japan the two games I’ve played has been to build IC in India and FIC, build Arm there, and build TRNs also to keep a steady flow of Inf from Japan to Persia. That puts a lot of pressure on Cau to allow either Germany or Japan to take it. Once you have a big Axis presence in Cau, that Sink IC becomes less valuable to the Allies.

    In other words, go around it - to the south. Germany can take Cau a lot sooner if Japan is in a position to immediately reinforce with a bunch of stuff.

    My tourney game I also faced Russian defence (but no IC) and was also not able to take Sink / Yakut until J5 or so, but still there was enough money that I had 2 ICs and 7 TRNs running. I think Japan’s priorities should be building TRNs, taking Australia / New Zealand / India ASAP (J3) and picking up all the island Inf. Japan’s TRNs practically pay for themselves because of the island Inf supply, and because they increase the value of your forces by moving them to the front much faster.

    Haven’t actually faced that American IC in Sink though.


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