• If any one has comments on the new strat article for BOTB please post them here.


  • Dear frimmel,
    Played another game using your strategy. Germans stymied by turn 5 with poor initiative rolls and poor dice in battles. It was just a matter of allied air corps mopping up the map. In fact, by the end of turn 7, the allies had captured the German town at the right side top of the map. “Holy diaster Batman!”
    Thanks. I am starting to wonder if the Germans can recover from this strategy without winning initiative and having good push towards Bastogne early on.


  • How did the 1st turn German battles go? Were they able to destroy Allied units, did they just back them up or were they ineffective?

    Were the Germans able to capture the supplies in St. Vith?

    Was it Stadtkyll the Allies were able to capture?


  • Germans first battles were a failure. They did not take the hex for the 9th infantry to the east of Eupen; they did not take Diekirch or Clervaux. This allowed the allies to reinforce strongly, especially in the eastern hex between Eupen and Malmedy. A struggle ensued in the north. As Germans pushed towards Bastogne, Allies continued to destroy German units in the North. By turn 7, allies tank blitzed from Eupen into Monschau. Although St. Vith was taken, none of it’s supplies were available to the Germans as they were consumed by the allies in the northern battles. Bastogne was reinforced steadily and though under siege, never fell.
    I think the early German dice failure was the key to being behind the rest of the game. Once allied air power arrived it was hopeless.


  • Thanks for the info. The Allies certainly need a lot of stuff to live through turn 1.


  • Does anyone have a map of the BotB board?  I want to understand Frimmels strategy better, as well as to see how good the game is to see if its worth buying.  Sounds like it is a good game.  :wink:


  • @frimmel:

    The Allies certainly need a lot of stuff to live through turn 1.

    I agree , your strategy seems to show a lot of promise, but only if the allies have quite a few units survive the German initial offensive.Last night i played my first game where Germany took 7 turns to win (all other games have ended in a turn 6 at the latest axis win).My opponent was using your strategy and if he had made better decisions with his air forces he definitely could have won the game as the allies.However i must attribute the allies near win to the fact that the german initial offensive was disasterous; I only killed 1 artillery and 3 infantry and the allies held all (i repeat…ALL) of their supply depots.
    In short, i believe in this game that the most probable outcome is determined in the opening offensive….G1 goes good for germany = turn 5 or 6 win for the axis, G1 goes bad for germany= turn 6 or 7 win for axis if the allies dont win.


  • @MechanizedWarfare:

    Does anyone have a map of the BotB board?  I want to understand Frimmels strategy better, as well as to see how good the game is to see if its worth buying.  Sounds like it is a good game.  :wink:

    There is a map with this article it is very close to the map that you get with the game. http://www.axisandallies.org/taxonomy/term/55
    It is however tweaked to IL’s ruleset. It has more hexes and a few extra details left off the OOB map but it should give you a good reference.

    I think the game is a lot of fun. It is very different from the other A&A games especially the combat system and its random casualties. If you haven’t read through the articles on avalonhill.com it is worth your time if you are thinking of getting the game.

    http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/images/AA_BoB_map.jpg

    That is a pic of the OOB board from the avalonhill site. I thought there was a pic up there. It is much more fluid than the other A&A games. I think it has lots of “fourth and 1” decisions. Make the decision, if it works out you are a genius and if it doesn’t you are a goat.


  • @eggsaladsandwich:

    @frimmel:

    The Allies certainly need a lot of stuff to live through turn 1.

    I agree , your strategy seems to show a lot of promise, but only if the allies have quite a few units survive the German initial offensive.Last night i played my first game where Germany took 7 turns to win (all other games have ended in a turn 6 at the latest axis win).My opponent was using your strategy and if he had made better decisions with his air forces he definitely could have won the game as the allies.However i must attribute the allies near win to the fact that the german initial offensive was disasterous; I only killed 1 artillery and 3 infantry and the allies held all (i repeat…ALL) of their supply depots.
    In short, i believe in this game that the most probable outcome is determined in the opening offensive….G1 goes good for germany = turn 5 or 6 win for the axis, G1 goes bad for germany= turn 6 or 7 win for axis if the allies dont win.

    I don’t think there is enough games in yet. But the Germans first turn is pretty big. I won a game as Germany in three turns but that was pretty much an obliteration of every Allied unit on the front line at game start. It was ugly. I moved into Eupen on turn 2. Fabulous dice. No strategy needed.

    But the supplies I think are more important than the units. Without units living thru the first turn the Allies can’t deny by use the supplies. The only game we have played that was close Germany didn’t capture a single supply depot or truck. I have to wonder if the best casualty for the Allies to inflict is a destroyed supply.


  • Thanks for the pics!  Yea I might get this game sometime next month.  Not before I get my AAM though.  :-D


  • The Allies have netted their first win in our games with that strategy. Although, we are thinking the recomendations on use of air might need to be ammended to making a choice between the main supply depot and the hex you don’t want hit from if you lose initiative.

    The Axis did make the mistake of not going into La Roche when they had the chance. That move would have cut Bastogne and Ortheuville off as the Axis was in Martelange and the Allies would not have been able to hold those seven points and would have lost.

    I got afraid of sticking the nose out to far and forgot to read the map.

    The Allies also did a lot of trucks in the front line but they gave up two of them to the Axis and got themselves in a bind late trying to bring stuff on board because their trucks were either blown up or in enemy ZOC.


  • The Allies can win. I went 1 for 1 as them yesterday. Totally decimated in game 1 in the first turn. I had about three units make it off the front line too many holes Germany captured nearly all the supplies on the board at game start. Game 2 went much better despite the Axis capturing 6 supply tokens at St. Vith. Most of the other supplies were used and the Allies were able to keep a continuous line till air power tipped the game. Germany didn’t have enough supplies by the end to conduct the combats needed much less move in afterwards.


  • Frimmel has posted a very good overall strat article at http://www.axisandallies.org.
    (indeed!) :-)

    The major fault I made in my first game with allies was to play far too offensively taking unneccessary (initiative) risks considering having the big air advantage in the back.

    I would like to add some guidelines to even improve Frimmel’s basic outline:
    1. Increase Germany’s supply consumption!!!
    -> Let Germany move westwards freely (without an attack first) as few as possible. Place single units at the front if need be even if you know they are sacrificed to force Germany into attacks! If Germany has to attack on all 9 hexes westwards (almost) all the time it needs (at least) 9 for the attack and 9 on the move and will quickly run into supply issues!

    2. Take advantage of weak flanks!!!
    -> If you want to be a little more offensive (mostly on occasion) take advantage of the fact that the Allies reinforce after the Germans so you can easily concentrate on weaker targets at the frontline to outnumber them! Never get full scale at the German spearhead before air support is available!!!

    3. Delay is the key to victory!
    -> Delay Germany’s speed at all cost: Sacrifice troops (s. 1.), save troops from overwhelmed situations for later more effective use in stacking, block roads (against German tanks), attack weaker spots, move supply away from the front with your trucks, …everything that slows down Germany’s progress and takes you to round 5 to get the planes will improve your chances.

    Good luck, Allied Commanders!

    P.S.: Last game we even had some German “Ardennes” tanks typically fallen back behind the frontline because of no fuel!
    Needless to say it was a overwhelming Allied victory!


  • @xxstefanx:

    1. Increase Germany’s supply consumption!!!
    -> Let Germany move westwards freely (without an attack first) as few as possible. Place single units at the front if need be even if you know they are sacrificed to force Germany into attacks! If Germany has to attack on all 9 hexes westwards (almost) all the time it needs (at least) 9 for the attack and 9 on the move and will quickly run into supply issues!

    Good extrapolation of maintain a continuous line if possible.

    2. Take advantage of weak flanks!!!
    -> If you want to be a little more offensive (mostly on occasion) take advantage of the fact that the Allies reinforce after the Germans so you can easily concentrate on weaker targets at the frontline to outnumber them! Never get full scale at the German spearhead before air support is available!!!

    I don’t reall think the Allies can ever go on the offensive but if you want to hit back hit back where the Axis must plug the hole or you will get behind one of their positions.

    3. Delay is the key to victory!
    -> Delay Germany’s speed at all cost: Sacrifice troops (s. 1.), save troops from overwhelmed situations for later more effective use in stacking, block roads (against German tanks), attack weaker spots, move supply away from the front with your trucks, …everything that slows down Germany’s progress and takes you to round 5 to get the planes will improve your chances.

    Delay is victory isn’t it?  :-)
    Keeping the Axis out of Bastogne, and Verviers or flanking those cities till air units become available is the delay I hope for.


  • Hi All

    Us Aussies are always behind on the latest avalon releases. As a long term fan of the original , a recent buying spree has a mate and I playing BOTB and D-Day fairly regularily. Have now reviewed the posts , and still struggle to see an allied victory. I agree the artical is good and a fine line defence can slow em down but unless you get extremely lucky Axis player always win.

    We have game tested that in the first trun the axis player merely wins initiative and the allied player can attack in line with other rounds. Solves the supply problem and the game appears to balances nicely. By game testing I mean played once.

    Intersted to hear your comments on this rule change, although i see the posts on BOTB have dried up given the age of the game.

    Cheers Troy


  • I don’t think it is an age of the game so much as it doesn’t have the same number of players as Revised.

    They ran a tourney at a big gaming convention (Origins) and out of that they had to adjust the game for a bid to be Allies. I think though that is largely a matter of the time constraint of 3.5 hours makes it too little time for the Axis to get the required number of turns in.

    My most recent play session saw a victory on each side of the board for me.

    You might see this discussion on bids (or balancing mechanisms) over at the Avalon Hill boards.
    http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=20173

    While I think that the Axis is going to win more often than nought I no longer think it is a foregone conclusion. I would not be surprised if your idea starts to turn into Allied routs very quickly. By supply problem I assume you mean keeping the starting Allied supplies out of Axis hands? While I haven’t tried that rule mod I would not be surprised if over the long haul that tips things firmly to the Allies. Burning up those starting supplies is key to Allied victory. I would take the Allies and that house rule any day. Plus give a couple of those starting Artilery pieces a chance to shoot…

    As you are just starting out I would bear in mind that the learning curve for the Allies is a little steeper than the one for the Axis.


  • Hello,

    I bought BoB about a month ago and meanwhile I’ve had 5 games with my gaming buddy, all of them with wins for G. I’ve played G in most of those games, and I’ve noticed a 1 thing on the last game (which was the closest one so far) that I found interesting.

    First, the way tank blitzs can really hinder the allies movement: on G1 I blitzed 1 tank to the hex NE of Malmedy and another to the SW of Vith (blocking reinforcements from reaching Vith, unless they are tanks). But the worst was on game 6: G had taken Werbomont and La Roche and was threatning both Liege and Bastogne. So I blitzed 2 tanks, one to the SW of La Roche, another to the SE of Huy: this had the effect of preventing any forces on the Bastogne/Ortheuville area to reinforcing Liège, while stopping tank reinforcements from reaching the northern area. My main attack on Liège failed to dislodge all Allied forces there on turn 7 but the stack that was threatning Marche resupplied from Werbomont and 2 tanks blitzed to Huy and Ciney, winning the game for G.

    So, the question is, how to deal with those blitzing tanks? I’ve found that losing one tank due to counterattacks/having him immobilized for lack of supplies can be well worth it because of the amount of tanks G has (and by the late game you can’t attack with all of them due to stacking limits/lack of supplies).


  • Best way I’ve found to deal with blitzing is to keep your line two deep in places. Put a unit in the hex a tank could move to if it eliminates the frontline unit. Alternately don’t move units up to the front but put them where you don’t want the Axis to be after their movement phase.

    Reinforce and stack the cities heavily but keep it thin but deep everywhere else.


  • Wouldn’t that increase the risk of the city stacks being too small to hold against an attack? But perhaps the payoff comes on the late turns when you can move those units to reinforce critical sectors as G is forced to abandon some areas due to the lack of supplies.


  • @Hobbes:

    Wouldn’t that increase the risk of the city stacks being too small to hold against an attack? But perhaps the payoff comes on the late turns when you can move those units to reinforce critical sectors as G is forced to abandon some areas due to the lack of supplies.

    You aren’t trying to hold the hex. The payoff is that the Axis can’t blitz because there isn’t an available hex to blitz into. It is difficult to explain without a map.

    Football analogy would be a defense that has a fabulous front line but no corners or safeties. They can stuff the run but you don’t need to run on them do you? Defense without depth isn’t much of a defense.

    Give yourself some depth.

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