Germany instantly killed Britain



  • I played an interesting game the other day.  I was Germany and conquered Britain on the first turn, and wanted to make sure this is indeed possible and I did not violate some rule.

    I began my turn by spending 10 on two dice for Long-Range Aircraft.  I got it.  I then put a tank and an infantry on my transport and moved my fleet a space over and engaged Russia’s sub which had moved into that space.  I flew every single plane I had into Britain (they all could at least land in Western Europe with Long Range).  When I defeated the sub, I unloaded the transport into Britain and did that battle.  AA shot down one fighter.  The rest of my units decimated Britain without really much of a fight.  I think I lost my infantry and another fighter in the battle.  I took over Britain and took all of its IPC’s, before Britain ever even got a move.

    Did I do something wrong?  It seems to me that if Germany gets long-range aircraft on the first turn, then there is nothing save some pretty bad fortune that would prevent Germany from taking Britain.  In fact, in light of this, it almost makes sense to spend everything you have on long-range aircraft on the first turn, to make it almost certain that you get it.  Then you take Britain and have a ridiculous amount of IPC’s to use the next turn.



  • This is a well-known loophole that allows the first-round SeaLion to succeed.  In response, there has been a near-universal acceptance of the rules revision that alters researched tech so that it takes effect during the Mobilize Units phase of the turn it is obtained in, rather than during the Research Technology phase.

    ~Josh


  • 2007 AAR League

    Technically you didn’t violate any rules if you are playing OOB but as OutsideLime said it has been fixed in LHTR.



  • @OutsideLime:

    This is a well-known loophole that allows the first-round SeaLion to succeed.  In response, there has been a near-universal acceptance of the rules revision that alters researched tech so that it takes effect during the Mobilize Units phase of the turn it is obtained in, rather than during the Research Technology phase.

    ~Josh

    I don’t accept that rules revision.

    And the phrase you are looking for is Larry Harris Tournament Rules.

    Seriously, I wish Hasbro/Wizards/Avalon Hill would just go ahead and OFFICIALLY adopt LHTR.  But until they do, I will continue to play OOB/FAQ.



  • That will not happen due to Royalties issues… and the cost to re-print and re-release the game.



  • @ncscswitch:

    That will not happen due to Royalties issues… and the cost to re-print and re-release the game.

    oh wellz.

    But the cost to re-print and re-release the game shouldn’t be a barrier to putting up an official link in their FAQ.



  • How many fighters can engage Britain without long range aircraft? Frankly, I’ve never heard of that before, and it seems scary.



  • On G1?  Only 2, Western and Norway (and the BOM from Germany).

    That is why LRA (using OOB rules since LHTR postpones tech until the END of your current turn) is required for a G1 Sea Lion, and also one of the BIGGEST reasons why OOB has largely been set aside in favor of LHTR.



  • I don’t accept that rules revision.

    I said _near-_universal.

    Clearly, you occupy the other side of the universe.  😄

    ~Josh


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    It’s still a gamble for Germany though.  That’s 7 aircraft, 2 ground units vs 1 AA Gun, 4 Ground units, 2 fighters and a dead bomber (1st round casualty kill, IMHO.)

    England could get lucky on it’s round 1 AA Gun rolls and even if they don’t and you do manage to take the ground (highly probable) you have no airforce anymore.  America will come liberate, and you’ll be dead in the water that much faster now that you have nothing left.

    BTW, I’m assuming that you’re using OOB rules and there’s no bids or other LHTR modifications.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @TheRealJerry:

    I played an interesting game the other day.  I was Germany and conquered Britain on the first turn, and wanted to make sure this is indeed possible and I did not violate some rule.

    I began my turn by spending 10 on two dice for Long-Range Aircraft.  I got it.  I then put a tank and an infantry on my transport and moved my fleet a space over and engaged Russia’s sub which had moved into that space.  I flew every single plane I had into Britain (they all could at least land in Western Europe with Long Range).  When I defeated the sub, I unloaded the transport into Britain and did that battle.  AA shot down one fighter.  The rest of my units decimated Britain without really much of a fight.  I think I lost my infantry and another fighter in the battle.  I took over Britain and took all of its IPC’s, before Britain ever even got a move.

    Did I do something wrong?  It seems to me that if Germany gets long-range aircraft on the first turn, then there is nothing save some pretty bad fortune that would prevent Germany from taking Britain.  In fact, in light of this, it almost makes sense to spend everything you have on long-range aircraft on the first turn, to make it almost certain that you get it.  Then you take Britain and have a ridiculous amount of IPC’s to use the next turn.

    The problem with this is that this is not an “interesting game”. Takes you more time to set up the board than to basically roll a dice, and maybe 70% of the time Germany takes over UK and the Axis wins, and 30% of the time (or whatever) destroys the German invasion and the Allies win, or Germany fails the tech roll and wastes one whole round of income, and Russia rolls into Germany.  Thats not too fun.
    Mateooo


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    The fall of England does not necessarily mean Germany wins.

    And, for the record, it takes no time to set up if you use ABattlemap, YES for live games too!



  • There IS a trade off for the quick UK kill.  It is the Russian Front and Africa.

    OK, London falls G1.  Germany gets uber money for G2.  Say +2 for Karelia, + 8 for UK, -2 for West Russia, +30 for UK bankroll.  Net +38, so $78. )Germany can;t afford Egypt in this case because of the Gibraltar BB)

    Now I am going to assume that Germany was out the Ukraine FIG, since it is a pretty common R1 open to take Ukraine.

    The AVERAGE is that UK falls with Germany having 2 FIGs, 1 ARM left.  They lose 1 INF, 3 FIG, 1 BOM in the battle ($48 IPC of units).  So already they come out BEHIND with $10 fewer IPC’s than they need just to replace losses from the attack.

    But what else?
    Only 2 FIGs to use in Central Europe on G2.
    Royal Navy INTACT.  If Germany sends EVERYTHING after the BB off Gibraltar, they can kill it, but that means giving up Egypt and THAT means threat to Germany from Ukraine to Western and total loss of Africa for the game.  If they don;t sink that BB, UK is liberated by the US, and UK has an uber-navy to which Germany has NO counter force since the Luftwaffe is GONE.
    US Liberates, and takes out somemore Kreigsmarine units.
    On T2, Germany is back down to being EVEN at the start of Russia’s turn, then they lose some combination of Ukraine, Belo, Karelia to Russia, Libya to UK, Norway to USA.

    But here is the other kicker…
    UK CAN LIBERATE ITSELF ON UK1
    1 ARM from ECan, possible TWIN BB shots.  94% chance to liberate.
    That means UK BUILDS on UK 2.
    And that means 2 TRNs and land units.

    So on UK3, UK is hitting Europe jsut as hard as they would have if London had not fallen (except for the AF units).
    But their fleet is untouchable, and Rusia was able to picket and trade against the massive G2 build, and now it is a battle for Europe, same as it ever was, except that the Luftwaffe is already dead.



  • If it’s so risky, then why is the LHTR needed?



  • Because it is an annoying pain in the butt.  :mrgreen:



  • How about this option…

    Germany has no forces on the board, but we’ll give you $200 to spend on G1.

    How fair is that?  How much fun would that be?

    A German sack of UK on G1 would be about as fun as a USSR sack of Germany on R1.



  • Hello,

    RealJerry wrote:

    “I then put a tank and an infantry on my transport and moved my fleet a space over”

    Not that it mattered with your awesome airforce, but that’s rules violation. A transport cannot carry both a tank and an infantry. It can only carry a tank by itself, two infantry, or an infantry with an anti-aircraft or artillery unit.

    Your ships had infantry being tugged in lifeboats, I guess.

    Cheers,

    GeorgeFighter  🙂


  • 2007 AAR League

    Sorry George.

    In AAR, transports can carry 1 Inf + 1 other land unit (Tank, Artillery, or another Infantry). So no, it is not a rules violation.



  • GF, there are multiple versions of the game.  The one you are refering to *based on your TRN limitation) is what we call “Classic” or just “Axis and Allies”.  That is the Milton Bradley version (and teh Hasbro CD-ROM).

    Revised (the version being discussed here) is the one put out by Avalon Hill a few years ago.  And in Revised, TRN capacity is
    Up to 1 INF and any 1 other land unit:  INF, ART, ARM, AA


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    How about this option…

    Germany has no forces on the board, but we’ll give you $200 to spend on G1.

    How fair is that?  How much fun would that be?

    A German sack of UK on G1 would be about as fun as a USSR sack of Germany on R1.

    I’ve done this game!

    It was classic, but it’d probably go just as bad for the Axis in revised.  Everyone get’s their unit’s worth in IPCs and can spend and place them however they want. (Inclides AA Guns and Industrial Complexes.)

    We also did it with mobile capitals. (-6 from original capital territory + 6 to new capital territory.)

    Want to see the mayhem of an American capital in Sinkiang; British capital in India; Russian Capital in Yakut?


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    There IS a trade off for the quick UK kill.  It is the Russian Front and Africa.

    OK, London falls G1.  Germany gets uber money for G2.  Say +2 for Karelia, + 8 for UK, -2 for West Russia, +30 for UK bankroll.  Net +38, so $78. )Germany can;t afford Egypt in this case because of the Gibraltar BB)

    Now I am going to assume that Germany was out the Ukraine FIG, since it is a pretty common R1 open to take Ukraine.

    The AVERAGE is that UK falls with Germany having 2 FIGs, 1 ARM left.  They lose 1 INF, 3 FIG, 1 BOM in the battle ($48 IPC of units).  So already they come out BEHIND with $10 fewer IPC’s than they need just to replace losses from the attack.

    But what else?
    Only 2 FIGs to use in Central Europe on G2.
    Royal Navy INTACT.  If Germany sends EVERYTHING after the BB off Gibraltar, they can kill it, but that means giving up Egypt and THAT means threat to Germany from Ukraine to Western and total loss of Africa for the game.  If they don;t sink that BB, UK is liberated by the US, and UK has an uber-navy to which Germany has NO counter force since the Luftwaffe is GONE.
    US Liberates, and takes out somemore Kreigsmarine units.
    On T2, Germany is back down to being EVEN at the start of Russia’s turn, then they lose some combination of Ukraine, Belo, Karelia to Russia, Libya to UK, Norway to USA.

    But here is the other kicker…
    UK CAN LIBERATE ITSELF ON UK1
    1 ARM from ECan, possible TWIN BB shots.  94% chance to liberate.
    That means UK BUILDS on UK 2.
    And that means 2 TRNs and land units.

    So on UK3, UK is hitting Europe jsut as hard as they would have if London had not fallen (except for the AF units).
    But their fleet is untouchable, and Rusia was able to picket and trade against the massive G2 build, and now it is a battle for Europe, same as it ever was, except that the Luftwaffe is already dead.

    these calculations need to take into account other factors.

    1. The destroyed UK units (2 FTR, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 RTL 1 ARM = 50 IPC) during the invasion
    2. Uk can not build units until at least UK turn 2, possibly turn 3, giving Germany a huge break on Western defenses, freeing up units to hold back the russians.
    3. Germany now has Long Range Aircraft for the rest of the game
    4. The US probably doesnt land in Africa turn 1, having to take back UK, more money for GER.
    5. The US or UK may lose additional units retaking UK
    6. Germany has an intact fleet in the North Sea (most Russian players dont send their sub there, choosing instead to link up with the British Fleet for added protection from German planes. And the UK airforce is no more.
    7. If the UK is not able to take back England, it will collect NO MONEY turn 1!, so delayed gains in Africa for Germany are more than offset by UK loss of at least 22 potential IPC.
    8. Germany can send a sub to take out one UK TRN, decreasing chance of UK recapture, but risking gibralter battle.
    9. Germany can still maintain a presence in Africa. If they dont take Egy turn one, killing the BB instead, they can consolidate a nice force in LIB and take EGY turn 2, perhaps with BB and TRN assistance, unless UK fortifies hard, depleting India for JAP. The TRN can even consider dropping a ARM in ALG to help out, following the battle in Gibralter.
    10. Germany often can retake Russia first turn gains using just a few tanks and RTL, replacing lost FTR and ARM with the surplus purchased during the turn 2 build, though Germany may be forced to pull back turn 2 while they wait for the hugeTurn 2 build to reach the front lines (78 dollars… 2 ARm, 2 FTR, 16!!! infantry)
    11. if Germany takes out the Gibralter BB, and manages to keep the TRN (should, with 1 SS 1 BB 1 TRN vs BB, or even if not), and UK does not take back England during their turn, you might even have a German recapture of UK (1-2 TRN full of troops, amphib shot from BB, maybe a few planes versus the US troops that survive the retake, at most 1 ARM 2 INF 1 RTL (no aircraft, of course, cuz they can’t land), though Russia can choose to land some fighters in UK, severely limiting their turn 2 flexibility- They cant land in UK unless they landed first turn in Moscow. And if they do, they can only fight a battle in ARC if they want to reach UK. This also helps Germany’s 2nd turn.
    12. you had Germany pick a BOM as a casualty before a FTR… I wouldnt do that, and that might
      affect your calculations, 3 Attack vs 4 attack.
    13. If Germany is even considering this move, they can put their bid in UKR, possibly detering or resisting a Russian invasion, saving their FTR and thus, improving their odds of a UK capture and possibly having 2 land units for defense against recapture (1 ARM 1 INF should beat or tie 1 ARM and 1 BB shot, may be worth sacrificing the FTR to spare the INF, if the rolls go right). Or if the bid is large enough, they can get 1 INF 1 RTL LIB, and still take out EGY. Also, with one more IPC bid, of 8, why not go TRN z5 and go hog wild on UK.

    All in all, I’d rather be on the Axis side of that confrontation.
    Mateo


  • 2007 AAR League

    even better, if the german sub is used to attack the TRN outside of Eastern Canada and wins (a pretty good chance) , then UK CAN NOT even try to retake UK on turn 1. The sub prevents any british attempt to grab the canadian armour. Germany can then afford to lose, or just ignore the Gibralter battle, and hold UK until US turn.
    Mateoo



  • @mateooo:

    All in all, I’d rather be on the Axis side of that confrontation.
    Mateo

    Oh I agree.  Just being Devil’s Advocate that it is not automatic cetain death… just that you are in deep kimchee and are going to have to work like hell to pull out of it.  BUT, if you do, the lack of Germany FIGs is going to be a major boost IF you can get UK back into the war by UK3.



  • if the uk has enough money for an ic but not its captial can it start prodicng units and buy an ic and put ot somewhere?



  • No, you cant build units unless you have your capital, the only things you can do are move and attack.


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