Russian winter realisticly unrealistic



  • russian winter is funny…in russia we tell you it is winter :-D… i declare it is winter in septmeber my infantry defends on a 3…anyone ever thought of somehow incorperating seasons?? Though it would… break up a rounds in to three parts summer, fall, winter…then make it a year to produce units…maybe naval takes longer…maybe russians can instead train infantry faster…something…maybe afro man can eat some fried chicken… :mrgreen:…who knows…


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    WWII began in Sept 1939, if I remember the month correctly.  Thus Round 1 is the Fall.  Round 2 is the Winter.  Round 3 is the Spring and Round 4 is the summer.

    Just the way my real life group always played the game.



  • Ill give that a try then … honestly the only reason i thought about it ws sims 2 seasons coming out :roll: …but ya that sounds like a good idea



  • Good point Jen, 'cept that the war and the game are different. So let’s work out when the game is set. If you don’t want to sort through the technicalities, just scroll to my conclusion.

    Russia has been involved, that started in June 1941, so it’s definately after 1939, but more importantly America has been involved, and everything in Pearl Harbor has been wiped out except subs and carriers. So that was December 1941. Now Algeria is still German, and that was invaded by the US in November 1942, so it had to be before that. Now, Japan invaded the Soloman islands in January 1942, which are Japanese on the gameboard, so it had to be after that. Now the American and Filipino forces didn’t surrended until April 1942. Now, Guadalcanal fell to the Japanese in early July, 1942, and I doubt you could say the Solomans were Japanese held before then. I know that the obvious objection to going past June 1942 is, “well that was after Midway, what was our fleet still doing at Pearl?”, yeah, that’s true, but if you look off the US West Coast, you’ll see ships, suggesting several months of war production following the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    So what we’ve established is, before November 1942, after April 1942. Let’s get more technical. Diplomacy. Brazil declared war on Germany in what I remember was mid August. As far as I can think of, those are the only fairly non-subjective events in that timeframe, meaning unless someone else can find a clarification marker (that wont be clouded by say, gameplay considerations, such as military numbers, production numbers, or ambiguous Eastern European/Atlantic territories), the game begins between August and November 1942. So in your game terms, let’s say fall.

    Now we’ve got another problem: the war wasn’t that long. If every turn was a season, then the war would be over in like turn 3. (do the math if you want to, I just don’t feel like it). What if each turn was a month? For history minded people you could start R1 in August, and for the game oriented gamers, you could start R1 in July to make it easier. To clarify, I’m an Aussie, I use the wet and dry, so maybe my January - February - March system of spring (and the others following suit) is wrong, adjust for that.

    So what about unit bonuses? That’s hard. Seasonally combat would be less influential in say, North Africa and the Pacific, but very influential in Red territories. I’ll leave the bonuses to someone else, just wanted to help out.

    Conclusion: The game is set between August and November, 1942.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Larry Harris has stated on his site many times the game begins in  March-April 1942. He also has stated that he does not favor structuring the turns into something concrete as to resemble a fixed time structure, but has maintained that turns are roughtly 4-6 months each.

    To extrapolate your winter idea this would only occur once in the game on turn 3 which would presumably cover the period of NOV- FEB 1943 which is the critical winter that effected the Germans.

    Rule:

    On turn 3:

    1. All Russian units defend at +1 modifier for the duration of all combat rounds.
    2. German tanks only move one space in russian territories
    3. All combat limited to one round.

    there its fixed have a nice day.



  • yeah the time frame is complicated
    but which party of the plain game was designed to be realistic anyway  :lol:



  • Uhhh, somehow I don’t think it’d be fair if the Russians thought to invest in jet fighters before the winter…:s Also I don’t see why Russian aircraft should get any kind of bonus. And I put alot of thought into my timeline:s Did he say why it was set then?



  • @Imperious:

    Larry Harris has stated on his site many times the game begins in  March-April 1942. He also has stated that he does not favor structuring the turns into something concrete as to resemble a fixed time structure, but has maintained that turns are roughtly 4-6 months each.

    To extrapolate your winter idea this would only occur once in the game on turn 3 which would presumably cover the period of NOV- FEB 1943 which is the critical winter that effected the Germans.

    Rule:

    On turn 3:

    1. All Russian units defend at +1 modifier for the duration of all combat rounds.
    2. German tanks only move one space in russian territories
    3. All combat limited to one round.

    there its fixed have a nice day.

    well who says the game wheater has to follow the real weather. instead of turn 3. you roll a dice once per 2 turns  on russia’s turn and if you roll a 1 it is winter. you can’t plan for the weather so having a fixed turn wouldn’t work.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes but you only get one of these harsh winters. 42-43 was the worst winter and the idea of that occuring twice per game is really alot of pressure on Germany.

    I would just allow the soviets to declare it once per game after all german attacks have been declared. the tanks movement restrictions would occur on the following movement phase and represent “general Mud” or Rasputita. That way its a surprise and it helps the soviets when they need it… just like the real winter did at stalingrad.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’m not up on the rule of this advantage so bear with me.  But I’d think that Russia should declare this during the purchase units phase of it’s round and it should be active for ALL units for the entire round. (Allied and Japan too, not just Germany.)


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If its declared in this time … germany wont have any opportunity to get stuck with the surprise of winter. Hence no attacks on eastern front rather than a disaster if they do… (at least for one round)



  • Hrm, I have trouble with how it would affect Asia and Africa.



  • it should only affect e.urope,finalnd,w.russia,belrussia,karilea,archangeal, and finnally Moscow. this are the only locations that would be affected by the winter, right? this gcould given work for germany ffor germany if the us or uk attack it, only if russia declared winter that turn.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The winter should effect all red territories, plus German occupied Russia, and lastly Scandinavia



  • how does winter affect yakut or the other asian terrotories?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The rule only applies to german/ italian forces that occupy any territories in pre barbarossa soviet union. If germany owns Yakut and they attack soviet units they suffer -1.

    i suppose Japan would face the same problems but to keep things more balanced i guess they could be exception from the rule.



  • yeah for balance reasons we might not want it difficult for Japan to attack Russia Far East

    but realism reasons it again steers Japan not to attack Russia but China, which is good?



  • Guys…
    You seem to forget one thing.

    The major reason why the Wermacht lost the battle in front moscow in 1941  it was because they received their winter cloth in march 1942!!!

    Whatever general winter. Soviet army won because the infantry was prepared for fight against winter.

    Alan.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The game starts in spring of 1942. we are accounting for the winter of 42-43 which is addressed with the modifier for defense. IN that winter the axis over evaluated their prospects for victory and discounted the ability of a poorly untrained beaten Soviet army to contain the 6th army. The Germans felt they could break out of the trap any time. The winter aided the defensive pocket that was established around Stalingrad and the russian defenders in the city rubble.



  • Sorry i forgot that some of you play A&A 1942 version.

    But even at the end of 1942, the fact are the same…
    The german army has 3 millions men on the eastern front.
    USSR 5 millions and more. General Winter or not. Hitler lost his chance in december in 1941.

    Alan.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats fairly the same ratio that existed before the Germans even attacked the Soviet Union. The difference was Germany was only prepared to fight the war “on the cheap” with a quick victory. This could overcome long odds only if it was decisive and daring plan. Once the offensive bogged down and the Soviets had time to catch their breath and learn from their mistakes the scale tilted not only quantitatively but qualitatively. The winter was one such ‘break’ to gain a rest from the German onslaught.

    If the Germans had ever commited a ‘total war’ approach earlier in the war things would have been different to make up for the numbers against them.AS it was it was too many to fight at one time.


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