How to counter the G1 Carrier (w/UK)

Nah, move the SZ 2 fleet to SZ 1, move an infantry from W. Can to E. Can, buy 3 fighters.

Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2
Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

As I said, the odds you find a german player who doesn’t stack W. Europe with fighters is extremely small.  So you’re going to have to worry about at least 1 transport, 1 infantry, 1 armor, 4 fighters and a bomber on average.

@ncscswitch:

It is a UK1 landing in Algeria with 1 ARM, 2 INF, 1 ART, the ARM from ECan.

Ahhh, UK1 landing…

So still not sure why you want to build that AC turn one with UK?  If you are planning on consolidating in SZ6 on turn 2, why not just build the AC turn 2 placing it directly in sz6?  I’d rather have 2 trn on turn one than 1 ac, and I haven’t heard a good argument yet for building the trns over the AC (in fact, I’ve already argued in earlier posts this thread that the trns are better for a number of reasons).

Rob

Personal Preference… the AC allows more flexibility to me :-)

@Jennifer:

Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2.  Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

Jennifer,

How are you going to a) sink the consolidated sz7 GER navy and b) invade Norway, in round 2?  The sz7 battle is a close one as is, and without those transports as fodder, I think you are risking leaving the GER with a navy yet…

In two rounds of combat, UK will probably score 7 hits without transports as fodder (maybe 8), GER will score 8 hits / borderline 9 hits.  UK will be left with maybe one unit (BB or BMB), GER will be left with 4 units (BB, loaded AC), or maybe only 3.

Now the UK has wasted their entire starting navy (except 2 trns - guaranteed dead come G2) and their entire first round buy, and GER still has boats in the water and basically the entire AF still intact.

Rob

Clay:

No one said a unified German fleet was a threat.  Most people that I’ve seen play move the BB/Trn to Egypt.

If you put the BB/Trn in SZ 13 I sink them with the 2 fighters, bomber on England, laugh histerically and invade Algeria early.

And you can always stop a unification with a Russian sub in SZ 6 and the British/American fleet in SZ 12.

Or we can get totally ridiculous and assume Germany not only lost her BB and TRN off the coast of Gibraltar but Japan lost a fighter in FIC and Germany lost fighters in Ukraine and E. Europe.  Since these are all possible outcomes that can happen before Germany can even use her silly Baltic fleet.

That’s why I say, if you arn’t going after England very hard in the first 3 rounds with germany, don’t build a fleet.  Use what you got and let it do as much damage as possible before being sunk.  Meanwhile, those 4 artillery that the AC cost you and the 2 lost fighters you no longer have because they died WITH your AC to the British Air Froce are much more useful in a fast destruction of Russia.

Those 4 ART are not worth that much when, without SOME type of reinforcement of the Baltic Fleet, the UK is landing with imunity in Eastern while being a direct threat to Berlin on UK2.

I don’t see England being a threat to anything but a some tea and crumpets on England two, with or without a strong fleet in the Baltic.

Remember, this is UK2, Germany’s GOING to have more then 6 land units in W. Europe, Germany and E. Europe.  So England MIGHT land in Karelia or Norway, but that’s about it.  Meanwhile, they are now out of position and prime pickings for the Luftwaffe who will eat them for breakfast.  And you ahve to assume it’ll take 3 transports to shoot down 1 fighter, so that’s 10 IPC in exchange for 24 IPC.  Germany can play that game all day long, especially after she sinks your second battleship because it’s away from England invading Poland (E. Europe)

The UK fleet is:
1 BB (so first hit fom Luftwaffe means nothing)
1 AC
2 FIG
3 TRN

That lands 6 units per turn, with a BB shot, and air cover of 2 FIGs and a BOM if desired

Even if somehow, miraculously, the ENTIRE Luftwaffe is till alive on G3, AND in position to strike the UK fleet AND is not needed for other combat…
The odds of the UK winning the battle is 56%  If just ONE German FIG is lost (oh say… UKRAINE on R1), the odds of the luftwaffe killing the UK fleet drop to 14.7%

Meanwhile, I will STILL have dropped 6 divisions in Europe by that time (since if you did nto build an AC, my fleet stayed put and did not go to Africa), and that force drop was 2 ARM, 1 ART, 3 INF, backed up by BB shot and AF.
And run THOSE forces through a SIM… that kills 10 INF divisions 75% of the time.

You REALLY do not want the UK to be able to land freely via the Baltic on UK2.  You won;t ahve any forces to send TOWARD Moscow, you will be stacking Berlin instead.

Meanwhile… USA just dumped into Africa, set up a NAD strat, and you ahve a similar invasion risk in Southern now also, and a 1-2 punch risk for Western.

It just is NOT pretty to let the German Fleet die without at least being able to do some SERIOUS damage.  And it is better to keep it alive a while…

@Jennifer:

If you put the BB/Trn in SZ 13 I sink them with the 2 fighters, bomber on England, laugh histerically and invade Algeria early

Good point.  But I wouldn’t move my med fleet to sz13 without amphibiously taking Gibraltar.  Now the RAF doesn’t have a leg to stand on.  I’ll invite your UK1 landing in Algeria now.

@ncscswitch:

It just is NOT pretty to let the German Fleet die without at least being able to do some SERIOUS damage. And it is better to keep it alive a while…

This intuitively makes sense to me.  Even if UK doesn’t see it as a serious threat for Sea Lion, it should still slow them down a turn or 2, and if GER can take down UK fleet while preserving GER AF, then 16 IPC sounds like it’s an investment well worth it.  Otherwise you’ll have much more than 16IPC of gear landed in Europe much earlier than you want…

EXACTLY!

rj-

2 transports/ 3 inf/ arm is a nice first purchase for the UK. It allows the potential to put 8 land units on the ground on UK2. The Brit carrier can be built when you move north, or you can postpone an assault on Norway until the US carrier built on turn 1 becomes your defensive backbone, allowing the UK to make other purchases.

This is pretty standard for me personally, and it works well against the German carrier purchase, as the lack of ground forces purchased on G1 means less ability to both attack and defend on all fronts at once- 4 British transports exploits this weakness.

It also means you are immediately at full capacity for production and distribution of ground units, without having to wait for a slow buildup to 4 transports. It’s why I really don’t like the carrier/ destroyer first turn with Britain. Yes it’s nice defensively, but you have little versatility.

@88:

2 transports/ 3 inf/ arm is a nice first purchase for the UK. It allows the potential to put 8 land units on the ground on UK2. The Brit carrier can be built when you move north, or you can postpone an assault on Norway until the US carrier built on turn 1 becomes your defensive backbone, allowing the UK to make other purchases.

This is pretty standard for me personally, and it works well against the German carrier purchase, as the lack of ground forces purchased on G1 means less ability to both attack and defend on all fronts at once- 4 British transports exploits this weakness.

It also means you are immediately at full capacity for production and distribution of ground units, without having to wait for a slow buildup to 4 transports. It’s why I really don’t like the carrier/ destroyer first turn with Britain. Yes it’s nice defensively, but you have little versatility.

8mm - Yes, this is what I was getting at and wondering about.

@Jennifer:

No one said a unified German fleet was a threat. Most people that I’ve seen play move the BB/Trn to Egypt.

Jennifer - Whether or not a unified fleet is a threat is up for debate.  You can always choose to ignore it if you want to.

@Jennifer:

Nah, move the SZ 2 fleet to SZ 1, move an infantry from W. Can to E. Can, buy 3 fighters.

Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2
Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

But from your earlier post it sounded like your counter to the unified GER fleet sz7 was to take it out with your UK fleet (minus trns), RAF, + 3FIG bought in first round.  If I misunderstood you, my mistake.  If not, I think that tactic favours GER.

Don;t forget the Russian SUB which would also be in SZ6 if you go that route.

Yes, if Germany can go total onslaught, they WILL sink the navy.

But that means no air for use against Russia.  And any remaining German naval units WILL be killed by the US on their turn.  And Germany WILL lose some of their AF in the battle.  Even if they take nothing but Naval losses, they still lose a FIG or 2.

And of course, to do a TOTAL strike on teh fleet means no Sea Lion, which was the point of this excercise right?  to invade London?

Obviously it’s very hard to argue what to do with England without knowing exactly what Germany did.  Likewise, it’s really unfair to say well that plan sucks because Germany did this on R1…how does Germany know what to do to counter England on R1 when England has not gone yet?

That’s the problem I see.

But here goes.

Germany sets up a Unification in SZ 7 on G2.

Then:

*  England buys TRN, AC and combines with TRN, TRN, BB (moving tank from Canada)  This assume Gibraltar fell
*  No Gibraltar fall:  England sinks Fleet in SZ 13, laughs to the bank owning Egypt AND half the German Fleet.  Moves Indian Ocean Fleet into Med.

If Germany does not move for Unification but goes the traditional route with a silly Aircraft Carrier (which is easily sunk by some submarines from America), just get a few fighters and cost Germany her northern fleet on UK 2, if they don’t reinforce with at least another transport.

No matter how you cut the cookie, there’s a way to make it crumble.  The only safe bet is an all out assault on Russia and hope to crack it before you get cracked.  Otherwise, you’re looking at a 3 week, 10 round game.

BTW, best game I ever had:  3 Submarines vs BB/AC/2 Fighters (2 hits) - Med; Sub vs AC/2 Fig (1 Hit)- East Indies; & Sub vs AC/Fig (1 Hit) Wake Island. (British subs in Med, American in Pac.)

It was beautiful!  Achilles heel of the steel navy carriers…submarines!

@Perry:

Basically, I do not feel that anyone of the suggestions above actually solves the G1 carrier situation. What do you think?

Perry, I’m not sure there is a UK1 solution to the G1 carrier.  But put yourself in the shoes of the German player for a moment - they are really not interested in building the biggest navy and owning all the oceans.  In fact, they probably really want to avoid spending another penny on naval units after their carrier purchase (because Russia is already starting to breathe down their neck).  The “solution” that I see is to be patient, protect against sea lion, and build your navy/air force to take out the German navy.

@ncscswitch:

I was assuming a UK landing in Algeria.  If their fleet is still in SZ2, then there is NO Sea Lion risk due to the number of units in UK

“MORE DETAILS must be had if a good response is to be made!”

“EXACTLY!”

(quotes taken out of context . . . or ARE they?  dun dun dun)

@rjclayton:

@Perry:

Basically, I do not feel that anyone of the suggestions above actually solves the G1 carrier situation. What do you think?

Perry, I’m not sure there is a UK1 solution to the G1 carrier.  But put yourself in the shoes of the German player for a moment - they are really not interested in building the biggest navy and owning all the oceans.  In fact, they probably really want to avoid spending another penny on naval units after their carrier purchase (because Russia is already starting to breathe down their neck).  The “solution” that I see is to be patient, protect against sea lion, and build your navy/air force to take out the German navy.

There is a solution, but the particular solution depends on the German Mediterranean navy and air moves, plus the particulars of the Russian/German front.

I often do two transports, three infantry, one tank, but I also sometimes run three fighters, and sometimes five infantry and three tanks, or sometimes something even different from that.

I have NEVER seen a game in which I see a German carrier and say “oh frick”.  Even in games in which there’s an African bid and the Axis take Anglo-Egypt, and unite the German fleet off France in G2, I still am not sweating, because I am STILL sure I can crush the Axis.  Caspian Sub published a paper recommending 2-3 Baltic transports, and I tried it for a time, but a lucky UK air attack ruins it.  (Note that this isn’t “oh you were lucky”, you really DO need to be lucky with UK . . . but if you are lucky, the Allies win right away).

I THINK I might return to the Baltic transport strat later, but I cannot say that I think 2-3 Baltic transports is necessarily absolutely sound; I believe that an Allied player can POSSIBLY counter it to make the Germans have a losing game - although I cannot say that there is a definitive Allied winning counter yet (I need to look at it more).  The two sticking points for me are the fact that the Allies can attack the German fleet and have . . . I don’t know, a 10% chance of straightforward victory, or more, depending on the precise probability breakdowns (which I haven’t done yet) - and that UK can build five inf three tanks for defense to counter the Baltic transports, and that the Baltic transports are largely useless after that.

Right now, it’s a moot point because I’m working through a German Rocket strat FTW.

The problem with the sit and wait method to deal with the Germany Carrier on R1, si you risk a unified navy in SZ 7 (later moved to SZ 6 probably.)

I don’t like that risk.  I’ll gladly send 65 IPC in aircraft hurtling to the bottom of the Baltic Sea to kill off the transport, destroyer, aircraft carrier and 2 fighters…and the 2 submarines if Germany’s dumb enough to let me…even though there’s a good chance I loose it all and germany only looses a few units.  65 IPC for 56-72 IPC.  Not a bad trade, and odds are, you won’t loose your entire air assault force (not like you can’t have 2 more fighters built ready for deployment.)