What is biding and is it neccasary.


  • Too bad Agent deleted all his posts, because he played some games versus DM to try the 4 unit bid in Europe. I believe DM withdrew to Mos and won. You see not all agents comments were “Boogus” (to speak in Maddog’s terms ;))


  • the 7inf ukraine bid ain’t that tough - many players are now bidding 24 and are perfectly willing to face 6inf, 1arm or 8inf in ukr.  here’s what i do as allies:

    turn: russia 1
    purchase: 8inf
    combat:  3inf, 3arm, 1ftr vs eastern europe; 1ftr, 1sub vs bal sz

    results:  russia has an ok chance to win all three battles (about 50% by my estimation), and if it does the game is basically over for the axis.  taking eeu cuts off much needed armour in seu and ger from the round 1 karelia assault by germany.  wiping out the german navy ensures that either both uk transports survive or that the germans have to divert airforce from the karelia battle to take them out.  if eastern europe turns into a great strafe opportunity (say, 4 attacker hits to 0-1 defender hits) then leave that ftr alone, retreat, and stack karelia.  in that particular case germany won’t be able to crack karelia without spreading itself way too thin.

    noncombat: unless there is an obvious dice disaster (you don’t take eeu, or the german trn in bal sz survives) then place everything in karelia and send the siberian units west.  karelia should have 16inf, 2ftr, aa; russia 2inf, aa; nov 3inf, 1arm; yak 1inf; sfe 1inf; cau 1inf  move your trn to hud sz to help out the canadian trn.

    turn: germany 1
    purchase: depends on how russia did.  maybe 10-11 inf and bunker, or maybe 6arm and go out in a blaze of glory. 4inf, 4arm is a good purchase for moderation
    combat: ??  if russia has won all three of its attacks i welcome the german assault on karelia.  an attack of 13inf, 3arm, 4ftr, 1bmb (everything) wins about 75% of the time, but doesn’t take with enough land units to defend against the uk’s counter attack of 2inf, 1arm, 3ftr, 1bmb, 1bb.  germany can sacrifice planes to take with more ground units, but that’ll get them in trouble quickly.

    turn: uk 1
    purchase: ?? likely 2trn, 3inf, 1arm
    combat: ?? with 8 (maybe even 9) or less german units in karelia attack with everything (2inf, 1arm, 3ftr, 1bmb).  taking the territory is critical because you want russia to be able to build there next turn.  if the germans sacrificed air to put more in karelia then eeu, f/n and weu should be ripe for the picking (killing any armour that germany used to retake eeu from russia).  in that case i move all my air to russia and build boats and infantry quickly to pressure germany asap.  even if russia and uk lose their entire airforces but russia holds karelia at the beginning of russia 2 i think they hold it for the rest of the game.

    turn: japan 1
    purchase: ?? likely 2trn, 3inf
    combat: ??  japan can’t make really significant gains too quickly with out a bid.  they will attack china, but if they go for all those attractive targets (chi, ind, haw, haw sz, yak, and sfe) they will do more damage to themselves than to the allies.

    turn: usa 1
    purchase: ?? maybe 4trn, 1inf; maybe 3trn, 4inf
    combat:  this should be a fun turn.  usa gets to take whatever uk left over in europe (f/n or weu).  there might also be a really good chance for a counter in pearl if japan attacked lightly so they could send more units into asia.

    well that’s about it.  can’t strategize more than one turn out.  and i probably forgot something so fire away at my strategy.  but i think that if everything goes average (and by that i mean that half the scenarios are better for the axis and the other half are better for the allies) then i think the allies have about a 55% chance of winning this game.  and if you are making a bid as the axis where you only expect to win 45% of the time then you are making the wrong bid!

  • Moderator

    I agree with Hamar, 7 inf on Ukr isn’t a game ender.  That’s a pretty good scenerio.

    @Bashir:

    Too bad Agent deleted all his posts, because he played some games versus DM to try the 4 unit bid in Europe. I believe DM withdrew to Mos and won. You see not all agents comments were “Boogus” (to speak in Maddog’s terms ;))

    Yeah, Agent had some good info on LL and bids/counters.

    Actually, one game he did a 4 inf Ukr, 4 inf EE and I got smashed.  It’s possible I countered wrong, but I think Mos was gone by rd 3.

    I’m pretty sure we did start to limit units to Europe, but we mostly played Pafr anyway and the 4 Ukr, 4 EE bid was more to test it out.


  • What was your R1? An attack on Ukr?

    I’ve been wondering for a while now how I’d deal with a 24 bid of 6 Ukr 2 EEU. That’s got to be the best PE bid I’ve ever seen. Fortunately the time someone at DAAK bid that against me I underbid him, but the fact that he bid that meant that he may actually get it on occasion and he was at least prepared for any 23 bid.

  • Moderator

    Are you asking me?

    Yes, I attacked Ukr and Sp sz.

    I don’t remember the exact details and would have to reread the game thread, which we do still have, and it has some nice friendly trash talking to get it started .  Good times.  😄

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5910.0


  • Hey bashir, hamar…want some of me on the gameboard?? I know not to ask dethsquad because he’s all mouth.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Hamar:  No bunkers in Axis and Allies Classic.  Most normal build for Germany in Classic is 9 Infantry, 1 Armor.

    Here’s the scenario:

    Russia 1:  3 Armor in E. Europe.  2 Fighters, 16 Infantry in Karelia
    Germany 1:  4 Infantry, 5 Armor in E. Europe; 3 Infantry, 3 Armor in Karelia
    England 1:  Plays with boats.  Might land in Norway if they don’t attempt a suicide run to liberate Karelia.
    Japan 1:  Sinks American Fleet, Invades Russia or recovers from Russian invasion.
    America 1:  Builds

    Russia 2:  Builds 8 Infantry in Moscow.  No forces to use, sits tight.
    Germany 2:  Builds 3 Infantry in Karelia, moves 4 infantry, 5 armor, 4 fighters to karelia
    England 2:  Reinforce Norway, or suicide again on Karelia
    Japan 2: Move deeper into Russia, maybe ignoring the Chinas to deplete Russia faster
    America 2:  Landings on England or Africa

    Russia 3:  Build more infantry
    Germany 3:  Take Moscow
    England 3:  Take Karelia
    Japan 3:  Attack China from 3 fronts (West, South and East)
    America 3:  Run up the white flag as they see Japanese naval forces becomming indominable.

    You’re BEST bet with Russia in a 7 infantry bid to Ukraine is to pull back to Russia and build the Russian Wall in Yakut to slow the Japanese.  With that you can hold out til round 4.


  • Hamar WAS talking about Classic. And his analysis, builds and all, were quite accurate. Much more so than your overview which selectively ignores units or strategies that aren’t convenient to the point you are trying to make.


  • my odds calulator shows that germany has about an 11% chance of holding karelia if they only took with 3inf, 3arm (and captured an aa gun) when the uk attacks with 3ftr, 1bmb, 2inf, 1arm, 1bb.  so as long as uk takes it back with 1arm (sacrificing air to do so if necessary, which, i admit, could be costly), then usa can land a bomber there and russia can build 9inf there, move in the 2inf from russia that originally came from eve, and the 1arm from nov (and maybe move in the infantry from cau if he’s still alive and not doing anything important).

    that leaves 11-12inf, 2arm, 1bmb, aa to defend against a best case scenario of 4inf, 5arm in eeu (if russia doesn’t get any defensive hits) and whatever air germany has left (probably 2ftr, 1bmb at the most).  unless germany bought 6arm in g1 then uk will always be able to effectively counterattack karelia (5-6inf, 1arm, 1-2bb, + whatever air they have left).  if germany did buy all armour then uk and usa should be able to move as many as 10inf, 2arm, 2ftr, 1bmb to weu by usa2.  then, when germany does take russia on round three, BAM! the allies storm berlin and raid up to 60ipcs.


  • What does your odds calculater say your chances are of whipping me?? Mine says about 5%

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Avin:

    Hamar WAS talking about Classic. And his analysis, builds and all, were quite accurate. Much more so than your overview which selectively ignores units or strategies that aren’t convenient to the point you are trying to make.

    He couldnt have because he said to build a bunker.


  • ROFL

    purchase: depends on how russia did.  maybe 10-11 inf and bunker, or maybe 6arm and go out in a blaze of glory. 4inf, 4arm is a good purchase for moderation

    He also said to build a “Go out in blaze of glory” by that standard. I don’t recall any “Go out in blaze of glory” units in any version of Axis and Allies. He clearly must be playing a different game than the rest of us!

    If that purchase described above does not sound to you like pure A&A classic, then I would like your opinion as to what game you THINK he’s playing, based on those purchases. They fit perfectly fine with A&A classic to me.

    Jennifer you’ve got to do better than being overly literalistic if you want to make your point. I’ve never seen Hamar play on these forums but from what he’s posting, he sounds like he’s very familiar with A&A Classic play, more so than you at any rate.

    edit - furthermore, I just noted that Hamar has posted exclusively on the A&A Classic forums, never on the forums for any of the other editions. So it looks like the majority if not all of his experience is with Classic, anyway.


  • Maddog, I don’t play nomore games online. They are just too time consuming… time wich I don’t have… so I have to decline your offer.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Avin:

    Here is exactly what he said:

    turn: germany 1
    purchase: depends on how russia did.  maybe 10-11 inf and bunker, or maybe 6arm and go out in a blaze of glory. 4inf, 4arm is a good purchase for moderation
    combat: ??  if russia has won all three of its attacks i welcome the german assault on karelia.  an attack of 13inf, 3arm, 4ftr, 1bmb (everything) wins about 75% of the time, but doesn’t take with enough land units to defend against the uk’s counter attack of 2inf, 1arm, 3ftr, 1bmb, 1bb.  germany can sacrifice planes to take with more ground units, but that’ll get them in trouble quickly.

    (Page 2)

    10-11 Infantry on G1.  That’s 30-33 IPC plus a Bunker.  Germany doesnt even have that kind of cash in Classic, let alone bunkers which don’t exist in Classic.  It’s obvious he’s talking about either home rules or a different version of the game.

    You know, I really get tired of people going out of their way to twist reality to make me look stupid.  It never works.  You can always go back to the original quote and put the lie to them.  Common.

    Not to mention, people KNOW what a bunker is and people know what the term “GO OUT IN A BLAZE OF GLORY” means…not to mention one is a noun and the other contains a verb.  Last I checked, you couldn’t purchase verbs in any version of Axis and Allies.

    So yea.  If you want to start inventing rules and comming up with resources you wouldn’t actually have, then yea, I could see how your (plural) arguements could be valid.  I mean heck, if I could get 2 tanks for 5 IPCs and put twice as many units on an IC then the rules allowed, I could kick anyone’s butt too. /sarcasm off.


  • 😄

    jen - yes i’m playing classic, and yes i meant bunker as a verb, as in “to bunker down”.  and if the axis bid 22 then germany can easily have 10inf on ukr and 33ipc for an 11inf purchase on germany 1.

    maddog - the calculator says my odds of whipping you any time soon are 0%.  but only because i’m too damn busy to play.

    🙂


  • As you can see, Hamar’s purchase is perfectly fine for A&A classic. I did quote his exact line in my previous post - you were the one taking the word “bunker” out of the context he posted it in and taking it to mean a noun when it was clear he was using it as a verb, as the parallel to “go out in a blaze of glory” indicates. All of this, what, to make it seem like he didn’t know what he was talking about? As I said, it’s pretty clear that if your argumentation rests on such weak leaps of logic rather than refuting his strategy that you are the one without much to stand on.

  • Moderator

    Everone take a deep breath.  🙂

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Hamar:

    😄

    jen - yes i’m playing classic, and yes i meant bunker as a verb, as in “to bunker down”.  and if the axis bid 22 then germany can easily have 10inf on ukr and 33ipc for an 11inf purchase on germany 1.

    maddog - the calculator says my odds of whipping you any time soon are 0%.  but only because i’m too damn busy to play.

    🙂

    Okay, you have to bear with me because there are flavors of the game that include rules for units like bunkers, Atlantic Walls, pill boxes, etc.  So it IS reasonable that you could have gotten it mixed up.

    Also, I didn’t see you include a bid of 22 IPC.  In fact, if anyone were to play me they would NEVER get away with a bid over 20 IPC. (I like a fighter, tank, infantry bid.)

  • Moderator

    I agree, DM, it does telegraph and there’s some luck in the dice in Karelia, but given a decent shake, you’re facing over whelming odds in Karelia. (Remember, Russia has NO units to use on R2 if they attack EE and mass Karelia since Germany just kills them all off without loosing a single tank.)

    That isn’t really true.  Russia can have 2 inf and 1 arm (eve, sfe).

    Russia can strafe EE, and have 16 inf, 3 arm 2 ftrs in Kar.
    Or
    they can attack with 3 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr and have 16 inf, 1 arm, 2 ftrs in Kar.
    (in both you take out the Ger trn in the baltic)

    So Germany is looking at

    13 inf, 6 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftrs
    or
    13 inf, 3 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 1 arm 2 ftrs

    In both cases you need 4 planes to survive the AA fire to even have a remote chance of taking.
    And 4 in the first scenerio gets you about 6 survivors but you probably needed to bring in possibly 5 planes, which means UK may still have its Canada trn.

    Even if they can’t, UK can counter with minimum 2 inf, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb-shot. Â

    You looking at UK clearing any time Ger only take with 5 units or less and possible take/clear with 6 units left.

    This also doesn’t even count the options of withdrawing from Kar or trying to stack Cauc.  In this case a 3 inf, 3 arm buy on R1 (LL) might prevent a German move to Kar.  It would certainly require the Japanese ftrs for extra defense.  Just throwing out more options.

    Anyway, I think it is a bad gamble to make, esp if you are getting a 21 bid.  I’d perfer to go PAfr and give my self a shot at not only Russia, but letting Japan build up, or even a shot at M84.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, well, the basic arguement was that 7 extra infantry in Ukraine was a very bad idea to give to Germany.  And in round 2 with Avin I’m proving that if you DON’T hit Karelia on G1 you loose.  I already showed that Germany has a distinct advantage if htey DO hit Karelia on R1.

    BTW, it’s assumed that your SFE and Yak units hit Manchuria to kill a fighter and you hit E. Europe to kill another Fighter with Russia.

    So yea, Russia maybe has 2 infantry in moscow to use. (the blitz blocker being destroyed by a battleship and 2 infantry from s. europe in caucasus.)

    But if you don’t do Manchuria you could have 2 infantry and a tank.  Not sure how that helps you, but you could have it.


  • DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board 😉 It is always nice to see how you play your games 😄 Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.


  • I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24 😉


  • Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.

    If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.

  • Moderator

    @Bashir:

    DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board 😉 It is always nice to see how you play your games 😄 Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.

    Actually, IIRC MD gave me a pretty good run last time we played.

    I’ve gotta clear a couple Revised games off my schedule first though, before I get back into classic.  I’ve got three going at the moment and they are in the fairly early stages.

    I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24

    I might hold you to that.  😄

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Avin:

    Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.

    If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.

    But you were not ahead.  You were reduced to equal status from superior status and then you lost 2 fighters putting you squarely behind.  But even with those fighters, you were still well on your way to a loss.

    So now I’m showing that if you do not immediately take advantage of the weakened Allied position you will definately loose. 🙂

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