What is biding and is it neccasary.


  • As you can see, Hamar’s purchase is perfectly fine for A&A classic. I did quote his exact line in my previous post - you were the one taking the word “bunker” out of the context he posted it in and taking it to mean a noun when it was clear he was using it as a verb, as the parallel to “go out in a blaze of glory” indicates. All of this, what, to make it seem like he didn’t know what he was talking about? As I said, it’s pretty clear that if your argumentation rests on such weak leaps of logic rather than refuting his strategy that you are the one without much to stand on.

  • Moderator

    Everone take a deep breath.  :-)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Hamar:

    :-D

    jen - yes i’m playing classic, and yes i meant bunker as a verb, as in “to bunker down”.  and if the axis bid 22 then germany can easily have 10inf on ukr and 33ipc for an 11inf purchase on germany 1.

    maddog - the calculator says my odds of whipping you any time soon are 0%.  but only because i’m too damn busy to play.

    :-)

    Okay, you have to bear with me because there are flavors of the game that include rules for units like bunkers, Atlantic Walls, pill boxes, etc.  So it IS reasonable that you could have gotten it mixed up.

    Also, I didn’t see you include a bid of 22 IPC.  In fact, if anyone were to play me they would NEVER get away with a bid over 20 IPC. (I like a fighter, tank, infantry bid.)

  • Moderator

    I agree, DM, it does telegraph and there’s some luck in the dice in Karelia, but given a decent shake, you’re facing over whelming odds in Karelia. (Remember, Russia has NO units to use on R2 if they attack EE and mass Karelia since Germany just kills them all off without loosing a single tank.)

    That isn’t really true.  Russia can have 2 inf and 1 arm (eve, sfe).

    Russia can strafe EE, and have 16 inf, 3 arm 2 ftrs in Kar.
    Or
    they can attack with 3 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr and have 16 inf, 1 arm, 2 ftrs in Kar.
    (in both you take out the Ger trn in the baltic)

    So Germany is looking at

    13 inf, 6 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftrs
    or
    13 inf, 3 arm + planes vs. 16 inf, 1 arm 2 ftrs

    In both cases you need 4 planes to survive the AA fire to even have a remote chance of taking.
    And 4 in the first scenerio gets you about 6 survivors but you probably needed to bring in possibly 5 planes, which means UK may still have its Canada trn.

    Even if they can’t, UK can counter with minimum 2 inf, 3 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 bb-shot. Â

    You looking at UK clearing any time Ger only take with 5 units or less and possible take/clear with 6 units left.

    This also doesn’t even count the options of withdrawing from Kar or trying to stack Cauc.  In this case a 3 inf, 3 arm buy on R1 (LL) might prevent a German move to Kar.  It would certainly require the Japanese ftrs for extra defense.  Just throwing out more options.

    Anyway, I think it is a bad gamble to make, esp if you are getting a 21 bid.  I’d perfer to go PAfr and give my self a shot at not only Russia, but letting Japan build up, or even a shot at M84.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, well, the basic arguement was that 7 extra infantry in Ukraine was a very bad idea to give to Germany.  And in round 2 with Avin I’m proving that if you DON’T hit Karelia on G1 you loose.  I already showed that Germany has a distinct advantage if htey DO hit Karelia on R1.

    BTW, it’s assumed that your SFE and Yak units hit Manchuria to kill a fighter and you hit E. Europe to kill another Fighter with Russia.

    So yea, Russia maybe has 2 infantry in moscow to use. (the blitz blocker being destroyed by a battleship and 2 infantry from s. europe in caucasus.)

    But if you don’t do Manchuria you could have 2 infantry and a tank.  Not sure how that helps you, but you could have it.


  • DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board ;) It is always nice to see how you play your games :D Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.


  • I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24 :wink:


  • Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.

    If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.

  • Moderator

    @Bashir:

    DM can’t you play Maddog in classic? He has improved a lot since the last time you played him, might be a fun game to watch because you are prolly the best classic player on this board ;) It is always nice to see how you play your games :D Lets spot you a 22 bid as the axis and give puppy the allies.

    Actually, IIRC MD gave me a pretty good run last time we played.

    I’ve gotta clear a couple Revised games off my schedule first though, before I get back into classic.  I’ve got three going at the moment and they are in the fairly early stages.

    I was thinking of maybe spotting him a 24

    I might hold you to that.  :-D

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Avin:

    Jennifer, what is the point of “proving” that you are going to lose? I already know you are going to lose! It doesn’t prove anything to assert that if you do X you are going to lose, and then do X yourself. You’re not proving anything.

    If you wanted to prove something, then prove that if you DO attack Karelia, you win. You have yet to show this given that in our last game, I was ahead before losing two fighters. As I said even then, if you had wanted to continue but adjust that single battle, I would be perfectly happy to do so. If you’d like to give up the current game and go back to that game and let me reroll UK2, I’d rather do that. Or if you’d like to do a new game with LowLuck so that neither of us has cause to complain, let’s do that.

    But you were not ahead.  You were reduced to equal status from superior status and then you lost 2 fighters putting you squarely behind.  But even with those fighters, you were still well on your way to a loss.

    So now I’m showing that if you do not immediately take advantage of the weakened Allied position you will definately loose. :)


  • Im stıll goıng to say though that a bıd of 7 to 8 unıts ın Ukraıne or Europe ıs not the best because so much more can be done wıth 4 ın Ukraıne and 4 ın Lıbya or 5 ın ukraıne and 3 ın Lıbya.  Wıth eıther of these the Russıans cannot really afford to attack Ukraıne or at least take ıt meanıng Germany should be able to use all fıghters and have enough fırepower to achıeve all objectıves on turn 1.  Also because Ukraıne ıs so buılt up the Russıans wıll have to brıng everythıng ıngnorıng the baltıc fleet whıch ıs another advantage to Germany.  Even wıth a strafe Russıa should lose.  Further should Russıa brıng everythıng ınto the Ukraıne they are lıkely to have to pull off leavıng a tank or two and ıf they go after the baltıc as well as the Ukraıne they wıll lıkely lose more troops than they kıll.  And thıs doesnt even begın to account for the extremely hıgh lıkelyhood of very bad dıce ıe Germany gettıng 5-6 defense hıts on round 1.  Yes there ıs a lıkelyhood of that hıttıng the Germans but ıt ıs less than that facıng Russıa.  Also unlıke a euro only bıd you dont have all your eggs ın one basket 4ınfantry ın Lıbya ıs very capable of gettıng the job done as are 3ınfantry.  In the end the only real choıce for the Russıans ıs to make no attacks on R1 but for the baltıc and maybe a strafe on fınland to soften ıt up for turn 2.


  • Agreed. With 4 or more inf in UKR the Germans are in the stronger position. The question is what is the best strategy for the Russians.

    Option 1. Take/strafe UKR with Everything in CAU and KAR. This could slow the Germans down for a turn but the downside is the potential loss of all Russian armour.

    Option 2. Hold KAR with everything. This leaves CAU open as a walk in and the Russians will probably lose everything to a concentrated German Attack on round 1.

    Option 3. Retreat to Moscow. Gather the Russian forces for a turn 2 or 3 counterattack. The downside is that it leaves 6 easy IPC gains for Germany on turn 1 (KAR and CAU)


  • You missed the option attack and take or strafe EEU.


  • Disagreed

    Russia strafes ukr with 8 inf,3 arm,2 figs which is a slightly superior force than what ukr has (7 inf,2 arm,1 fig) and gets more superior after the first round of fire because the germans are losing (2’s) and the russians (1’s). Ukr winds up with 1 or 2 arm & a fig. Russia retreats back to karelia with a couple inf,3 arm,2 figs. Russia reinforces that with 11 inf (the 12th going to cauc), looks ger squarely in the eye & says “bring it on”.

    If ger retaliates by sending everything to kar (ignoring the atl fleet) and loses NO planes to aa fire, then it will enjoy only a slight edge. Lose 1 plane to aa fire and it’s even steven.

    Bottam line is, put 4 inf of your bid in ukr against me & I will shove them 4 inf up your behind!!  and this assumes that that is your entire bid in europe. if you have another 3 of your bid in ee,then that might change things.


  • And another thing squad….doing that strafe doesn’t mean ignoring the baltic fleet! Do you see those 2 little russian boats parked off the coast of karelia…


  • Well I don’t really mind that because it is risky to go ships on ships and because it means you must send both of them i.e. you don’t end up with fodder in the North sea which is a huge plus. If I can get the Russians to start taking those kind of risks on Russia one when they don’t have to then I think my bid has done its work.

    You missed the option attack and take or strafe EEU.

    Yes but while this is probably better than the risk of nailing Ukraine it is not better because as Russia you are still giving up 3inf and 2arm for just 3inf arm ftr in EEuro.  The only real gain here is that you can attack the baltic sea but you are very likely to see the Germans push their guys from Ukr to Cauc as well as play a strong opening in Egypt.  Essentially, you are giving up all the ground you normally would to a power europe and power africa opening.

    Russia strafes ukr with 8 inf,3 arm,2 figs which is a slightly superior force than what ukr has (7 inf,2 arm,1 fig) and gets more superior after the first round of fire because the germans are losing (2’s) and the russians (1’s). Ukr winds up with 1 or 2 arm & a fig. Russia retreats back to karelia with a couple inf,3 arm,2 figs.

    This is a VERY optimistic apraisal because you assume NOTHING goes wrong.  Even if it does you leave 2 German armor(which is what they want anyway) and you retreat with 2inf plus armor.  so you are trading 6 infantry for 7 big deal!  Plus if you go for the ships on ships in the baltic and the ukraine you are very likely to get stung in at least one place.  If its in the baltic i lose no ships and you retreat with a transport .  While its unlikely I would attack Karelia it is very likely that I would use that transport, either to move troops out of Finland or to move troops from Weuro to eeuro.  At the same time I can take down the Uk fleet without losing any aircraft so even if you take the EEuro option instead I really haven’t been hurt much.  And then there is the 500 pound gorilla in the room of my 4inf bid in Libya which enables me to attack syria as well as egypt while knocking out the entire Uk navy turn 1.  No matter what you do against Germany in EEuro, Ukr etc it won’t matter so long as that force has that kind of options.  The way to prevent the Egypt/syria gambit is to make not attacks on Germany but for the naval ones and force them to have to stretch a little on G1.  However that means you are giving the Germans a huge advantage in terms of guys in Europe against Russia which will hurt in several turns.


  • Someone explain to me how to cut & paste or whatever it takes to get a partial quote from someone on your post. Pretend that I’m a 6 year old & baby me through it.
    In all his rambling nonsense, dethsquad stated " And then there is the 500 lb gorilla in the room of my 4 inf bid in libya"  Trust me folks,that 500 lb gorilla is no more than a 5 lb spider monkey. Ask Cyan, he’ll tell ya.


  • Hit the “quote” button instead of “reply”

    Then from between the two html quote commands (one says quote in brackets, the other is /quote in brackets) delete the text you do NOT want included.

    Then type your comments AFTER the /quote command :-)


  • @MADDOGG:

    Someone explain to me how to cut & paste or whatever it takes to get a partial quote from someone on your post. Pretend that I’m a 6 year old & baby me through it.
    In all his rambling nonsense, dethsquad stated " And then there is the 500 lb gorilla in the room of my 4 inf bid in libya"  Trust me folks,that 500 lb gorilla is no more than a 5 lb spider monkey. Ask Cyan, he’ll tell ya.

    were still playing it. i got a 27ipc bid and put 4inf(3X4+=12) in manchuria and put 3tanks in libya.
    he bombed my tanks to pieces. he empted india and amphioious assualted egypt my 3 tanks the other was in congo. who the heck gives up india for egypt? it  worked though. he then killed my med fleet next turn in the black sea. africa is obivoulsy suffering i have no units in it, no way of bringing troops there and the us never even had to attack africa,instead it attacked france. my other bid didn’t go too well either the 4 inf got killed in yakut with only 1 hit in 2 rounds. 
    i put 15 extra ipc in africa and the fate of it was decided withen 2 turns.

    the moral of the story: don’t  use an african bid unless you attack egypt via southern europe first turn to acompany the bid. even then i’m still going to call you mad :-).


  • Trust me folks,that 500 lb gorilla is no more than a 5 lb spider monkey.

    More nonsense from you.  Christ!

    the moral of the story: don’t  use an african bid unless you attack egypt via southern europe first turn to acompany the bid. even then i’m still going to call you mad

    I would gladly take a bid of 27 and win as the Axis by placing 5infantry in Ukraine and 4 infantry in Libya.  Yes Russia can attack in Europe and the Libyans will need help in Egypt but the key here is that he cannot do it all.  If Russia attacks Ukraine it makes it easier to deal with the British navy for Germany.  If they don’t attack Ukraine then Germany can afford more troops into Africa.  If Russia attacks FinNor then the Germans might just attack Karelia, and if Russia attacks EEurope that move is irrelevent.  Ignoring Ukraine is the best because the net gain for Russia is usually very small, only 2arm and a ftr, but for Germany that gets this plus 3 units bid into Ukraine this is a huge upswing.

    were still playing it. i got a 27ipc bid and put 4inf(3X4+=12) in manchuria and put 3tanks in libya.

    And this is WHY you are losing.  Putting that much infantry in Asia does no good, and you overdid the armor in Africa so you got little benefit out of your bid.  Like I said with 27 I’m going for 9inf and putting 5 of it in Ukraine, and 4 in Libya, or I would bid for 8infantry and put 5of it in Ukraine and 3of it in EEurope.

    who the heck gives up india for egypt? it  worked though.

    Sounds like a good move.  India is only 3ipcs, East Africa/Syria is 7.  India is too close to Japan to be defended, Egypt is an easy hold for the Allies once taken from Germany.

    the moral of the story: don’t  use an african bid unless you attack egypt via southern europe first turn to acompany the bid. even then i’m still going to call you mad

    Or bid at least 4 infantry in Africa.

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