Attacking Ukraine



  • @88:

    As I said before there’s alot more to attacks than IPC value of pieces destroyed. IMO the R1 Ukraine battle is one of those attacks. It sets the tone, it kills a precious German fighter, it helps lower the % chance of things going well for Germany on G1 attacks.

    And it’s not the death knell for Russian armor. Only use two in the attack, and slowly (or quickly if so desired) replenish Russian armored forces. The battle favors Russia, and there’s no room IMO to base decisions on the chance of bad dice. You could just as easily factor in the chance of overwhelmingly good dice, which makes no sense. I choose to base my battles on odds.

    So do I, except my odds say go into WR heavy, wipe in 1 round, and reduce the german shots at you. VERY VERY VERY LITTLE RISK of not prevailing. If you do, your dice were so bad you were going to lose anyway. Plus, bid units to Ukraine dont affect the strategy.

    Second, you easily retake Caucus/Ukraine Ussr2


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I like that method too, at times.

    I’ve seen the E. Europe, Ukraine, Belorussia approach too.  Gotta be risky has hell, but he successfully destroyed two of my fighters on R1 and a Jap fighter with England on UK1 in FIC.

    BTW, I like the 3 Infnatry, 3 Armor buy for R1.  Gives you lotsa tanks to play with, especially if you don’t over expose in Ukraine.



  • Jen, I FINALLY have an example of bad dice that beats your averages…

    4 Russian FIGs attacking Japan forces in Novo with an AA gun…
    FOUR FIGs SHOT DOWN BY AA FIRE!

    And that immediately after the US attacked German forces in Ukraine that had an AA gun, and the US lost a FIG and a BOM to AA fire.

    Although, I have to admit that, since I am playing one of the axis powers, I am actually HAPPY about those dice 🙂



  • I do agree squirecam. Killing W Russia alone limits losses and ensures overwhelming success. With an 8 infantry build it leaves you in a great position numerically on the front. That’s an incredibly solid opening.

    But I’ll admit it- I like killing the German fighter, and forcing Germany to respond in more spots. I like being aggressive and setting the tone of the game. For me the opening move transcends IPC values. It’s a statement to your opponent. And believe it or not, in countless games where both myself and my adversaries attack the Ukraine as a standard move, 90% of the time the Russian player seems to end up taking it with 2 armor, and that’s only bringing 2 in the first place.

    Can’t explain it, but the gods of war (or the gods of boardgames simulating war) seem to smile on the aggressor  :evil:



  • @Jennifer:

    Yea, I like that method too, at times.

    I’ve seen the E. Europe, Ukraine, Belorussia approach too.  Gotta be risky has hell, but he successfully destroyed two of my fighters on R1 and a Jap fighter with England on UK1 in FIC.

    BTW, I like the 3 Infnatry, 3 Armor buy for R1.  Gives you lotsa tanks to play with, especially if you don’t over expose in Ukraine.

    how would you take eastern europe,ukraine and belorussia?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    Jen, I FINALLY have an example of bad dice that beats your averages…

    4 Russian FIGs attacking Japan forces in Novo with an AA gun…
    FOUR FIGs SHOT DOWN BY AA FIRE!

    And that immediately after the US attacked German forces in Ukraine that had an AA gun, and the US lost a FIG and a BOM to AA fire.

    Although, I have to admit that, since I am playing one of the axis powers, I am actually HAPPY about those dice 🙂

    DAAK, dear?

    And yea, that is pretty erronious dice results!

    I had a transport of mine shoot down two planes though.  That was fun!

    Cyan:

    I was attacked in EE with 3 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 armor
    Ukraine by 2 armor, 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter
    Everything else into WRU.  (I misspoke, it was not Belorussia….that’s normally the 3rd point, Belo, WRU and Ukr, in a 3 prong attack by Russia.)



  • @Erwin:

    @Jennifer:

    There’s no point in hitting Ukraine if you don’t kill the German fighter, IMHO; Noob.

    That´s true, you neither kill the fighter nor do you get the territorry, all you do is to kil poor inf pieces (or maybe a tank).

    I disagree there.
    If you manage to kill all but the fighter and manage to save you tanks it is well worth it. 3 tanks left in ukraine will mean you got 1 tank left ( excluding builds ) so he loses 1 fighter of flexibility where you lose 3 tanks that also make your forces more flexible.
    1 fig is not worth the cost of 3 arm at least not when the fig is german and the armor is russian.
    Strafing ukraine would actualy be better since you can deploy more forces there you inflict a lot of losses the first round and most likely suffer less losses on the return fire, and you are safe for a counter since germany can only counter with armor.



  • That’s the only situation that causes me to pause when attacking the Ukraine- the perfect strafe. Killing everything but the fighter forces (for me) an agonizing decision- to stay or retreat. I think it depends on how the W Russia battle went, as well as how many hits the Ukrainian defenders inflicted on the Russian attackers. IMO, if you’ve only got a couple of tanks left- kill the fighter. If the Ukrainians only killed your infantry- falling back is suddenly an option, as you keep artillery and armor.

    I’ve made both decisions- falling back or continuing- a bunch of times. More often than not I’ve wished I had killed the fighter later in the game.



  • It also depends on your build…
    Having some high-punch units as part of the R1 build has a huge impact on whether or not you can afford to lose the ARM…



  • Absolutely- good point.

    3/3 or 2/2/2 allows more risk with the armor. I usually go 5/1/1 even with a Ukraine strike, but take 2 armor to W Russia and 2 to the Ukraine fight. I know it’s a little dicey but it’s still a win by the odds. And I’ve come to depend more on artillery with Russia lately- it’s not as nerve-wracking to leave artie sitting on the front as it is precious armor… not as cost effective either.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I don’t mind loosing the tanks because this is Revised, not 2nd Ed.  That means my tanks work just as well for defense as offense, so I’m gunna take something with me, probably 2 somethings if I have 3 armor left.  Meanwhile, I have 3 infantry, 3 armor from my build comming anyway.



  • And Jen just reinforced my point…

    If you ahve other ARM in the pipeline, losing some or all of your initial ARM is NOT as devastating to Russia as it otherwise would be.

    But if you play a DEFENSIVE Russia (Mostly INF, perhaps with some ART thrown in, or a single ARM on R1), then you probably want to go West Russia and Belorussia rather than lose your initial ARM in Ukraine.



  • i cant seem to stay away from the 3inf 1 arm 1fig buy on r1 i feel that there are just too many benefits of a 3rd fig on r2



  • that is a solid buy Noob.

    Then it is just a matter of what you do with your existing units…



  • I think it depends on the type of opponent you play- an aggressive German player will try to make you pay for your lack of ground forces if you buy a ftr R1. A German player content to trade territories and wait for Japan to do the heavy lifting would be best, IMO, to buy a ftr against.

    Know your enemy.



  • Well it is only 1 ftr. As germany i would not mind trading 1 ftr for 3 russian arm even it i have to hand in 1 more inf to do it.
    The fig will return fire so most likely take 1 arm with it.

    1 fig for germany == 25% of its starting income so you still got 30ipcs worth of troops.
    3 arm == 60+% or russian income. Those arm can be used much more effective later in the game.

    Germanies biggest problem early game is getting enough inf to the russian front to mount a serious attack. Strafing to remove inf and art at the start basicaly prevents them from doing anything big on that area for a while. He got a grand total of 3 inf as fodder for his attack on Wrus and 0 inf as fodder vs any other country ( except karrelia but he will take that anyway ), what are the odds of him attacking under those conditions ? So you just saved a whole round of time and got time to beef up your troops while germany basicaly cant do anything VS russia.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    With the 3 Inf, 1 Arm, 1 FIg buy, I’m going full bore for Moscow before England can come to your rescuse.  I might even let England keep her second battleship because I wnat to kill you faster and 3 more fighters in combat will help me do that.



  • There are two important targets on G1.  Anglo-Egypt, and the UK battleship.

    Other targets are targets of opportunity - Karelia is easy to take, so might as well be taken.  Caucasus is sometimes open for a cost-effective capture.  In a few games, Germany might be able to crack West Russia early.

    But the important targets are targets that Germany should almost always take regardless of how the rest of what other opportunities present themselves.  The only exception is if an immediate and real threat to Moscow can be presented.  (i.e. not a threat that Russia will just smash on its turn, but something that Russia can’t counter, nor can the rest of the Allies).

    Why do I classify Anglo and the battleship as important targets?

    1.  Anglo.  Fighter reinforcement to India, fighter reinforcement to Indian fleet, fighter helps to attack isolated Japanese transports early game, infantry and tank are able to consolidate at another position.

    2.  Battleship.  With a build of 2+ fig, UK becomes an early naval power.  Battleships plus transports plus fighters and bombers attack, then retreat.  The battleships absorb two free hits, transports are there for a safety factor.  On the attack later, Germany has to take care of those two free battleship hits, a real pain.  Mid to late game, two battleshop support shots accompanying a lone infantry deplete the German western infantry reserve at no real risk or harm to the Allies, while other UK transports offload to Norway/Karelia/Eastern Europe.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Paint,

    If I have the option as Germany to break Russia’s stack on W. Russia with enough force to stop him from doing any significant damage to me and without being able to put up enough defense on Russia 2, I’ll forgo Egypt and the Battleship.  Screw it.  I can recover with fighters later, after I secure all of Asia for Germany. (Cause Japan’s not doin squat, they’re going to build navy and ingnore Russia so Germany can have all of it.)



  • so heres the million dollar question then…how much force is required to be left in wru in order for it not to be ‘broken’ what i mean to say is what is the tipping point for forgoing the battle ship and egypt. there are many factors to consider.  Keep in mind the uk battleship can always be taken with existing navy only.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Man, that REALLY depends on the bid!



  • id say it depends more on how many units are left in wru and in cau/ukr.  did russia strafe ukr? if they did then attacking wru could be really bad for ger… ive often considered hitting wru on g1 but i always feel it leaves germay too over extended


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    You also don’t have to take W. Russia you can take units around it and force Russia to attack you.


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