Part One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6jc6yOkUS8&list=PLC5zN4iV9YdH9PxRQDRnE0UvzqU9a-iF1&index=2&t=13s
Part Two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD5bgCJrdSA&list=PLC5zN4iV9YdH9PxRQDRnE0UvzqU9a-iF1&index=3
As usual, I’m playing out a full game and working on weird strategies for multiple countries. Gives me practice for future videos.
Is this any different then what germany does with its forces? Attack a country and then retreat in the other direction you came from?
Yes retreat can be abbused a lot and is abbused a lot in this fashion to give units more range then they should have. Its just 1 of those mistakes in the rules that make the game more playable.
@shadowhawk Yes, same as the Yugo Ping Pong.
and the Egyptian Ping Pong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xdyt9QYs2U&list=PLC5zN4iV9YdH9PxRQDRnE0UvzqU9a-iF1&index=1&t=13s
Yea you can even use that to move your axis ships through the gibraltar straight without actually owning gibraltar. Just have 1 sub attack from the other side and you can retreat through a seazone you cannot even sail through.
Its just one of these rules that you can abbuse because they simplified the combat part. It would be difficult to keep track of what comes from where.
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
Yea you can even use that to move your axis ships through the gibraltar straight without actually owning gibraltar. Just have 1 sub attack from the other side and you can retreat through a seazone you cannot even sail through.
Its just one of these rules that you can abbuse because they simplified the combat part. It would be difficult to keep track of what comes from where.
oh wow, never thought of that sneaky move. Love it and will use it.
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
Yea you can even use that to move your axis ships through the gibraltar straight without actually owning gibraltar. Just have 1 sub attack from the other side and you can retreat through a seazone you cannot even sail through.
That’s not legal. Retreat is a form of movement, so the rules for canals and narrow straits apply. Retreat through the strait in this case would only be a legal option if only attacking subs survive.
By the way, “ping pong” seems like an odd name to me for this maneuver. “Leapfrog” seems more applicable.
@Krieghund said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
Yea you can even use that to move your axis ships through the gibraltar straight without actually owning gibraltar. Just have 1 sub attack from the other side and you can retreat through a seazone you cannot even sail through.
That’s not legal. Retreat is a form of movement, so the rules for canals and narrow straits apply. Retreat through the strait in this case would only be a legal option if only attacking subs survive.
Same combat turn, Germany lands a transport on Gibralter. Then sub from Southern France joins a large fleet battle in SZ 91 - is the retreat then legal?
@dazedwit Again, only if only subs survive. The Axis must control Gibraltar at the beginning of Germany’s turn in order for its surface ships to pass through. See page 9 of the Europe Rulebook.
The rules for retreat do not require that the move is legal. Only that the SZ you retreat to is friendly and that at least 1 sea unit came from there.
Though its completely insane to allow the move if you follow the rules that are in the book then you can do this move.
Same as that units cannot move more then their max speed but when retreating you also violate this movement rule by retreating to the other side.
Only way to really solve it is to rewrite the retreat rules so that units must retreat to the zone they came from, so you can never retreat more units of a single type to a zone then the units that came from that zone.
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
The rules for retreat do not require that the move is legal. Only that the SZ you retreat to is friendly and that at least 1 sea unit came from there.
By that logic, you can ignore the rules for canals and narrow straits when making a combat move or a noncombat move, or when moving using a naval base, as none of these rules mention them either. The fact is that the rules for canals and narrow straits apply to all movement of sea units, as they say they do.
Same as that units cannot move more then their max speed but when retreating you also violate this movement rule by retreating to the other side.
This is an entirely different case, as retreat movement is an explicitly-stated rules exception. You can actually violate the maximum movement of units by retreating in any direction. Infantry that move 1 space into combat and then retreat back where they came from have moved 2 spaces, even though they ended up back where they came from. The only difference is that since they return to where they came from, we don’t perceive that they have actually moved, so we accept it.
@Krieghund said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
The rules for retreat do not require that the move is legal. Only that the SZ you retreat to is friendly and that at least 1 sea unit came from there.
By that logic, you can ignore the rules for canals and narrow straits when making a combat move or a noncombat move, or when moving using a naval base, as none of these rules mention them either. The fact is that the rules for canals and narrow straits apply to all movement of sea units, as they say they do.
True the book and especially the rules regarding retreat are badly worded sometimes.
Retreat however is not a move so it ignores most movement rules.
But it hardly mathers its theoretical and only applies to gibraltar at best. As subs can move through but others cant. How many times do you have a fleet on 1 side a sub on the other side and an enemy fleet in exactly the right spot to abuse it.
Same as that units cannot move more then their max speed but when retreating you also violate this movement rule by retreating to the other side.
This is an entirely different case, as retreat movement is an explicitly-stated rules exception. You can actually violate the maximum movement of units by retreating in any direction. Infantry that move 1 space into combat and then retreat back where they came from have moved 2 spaces, even though they ended up back where they came from. The only difference is that since they return to where they came from, we don’t perceive that they have actually moved, so we accept it.
Retreat rules are just badly worded, it should just be that units retreat to where they came from. That cannot be abused and it makes it logical.
@shadowhawk said in Know The Rules: How Boats Can Move 4 Spaces:
Retreat however is not a move so it ignores most movement rules.
Retreat is movement, as the pieces involved move from one space to another. As such, it must follow all movement rules. However, it is a special type of movement, with additional rules extending the total range of land and sea units by 1 and restricting where it may end. That’s the only difference.
About the second video:
I don’t think it’s particularly neccessary. Unless you’re trying to kill some US ships along the way, Japan can still get to Queensland in 2 turns via the naval base in the Caroline Islands.
I know. Completely unnecessary I wanted to make a second vid to show a more likely option to move 4 spaces. First vid had Japan hitting with ten loaded trns. That’s not going to happen too often.
Doing this screwed up Japan’s strategy this solo game but I told my four viewers I was going to do it so I did.
There’s a lot of ocean on the map so this could have happened anywhere but Pacific is most likely. I don’t think boats would really line up well enough in the Atlantic to work well.
edit: first vid would be wild in a tourney if it lined up with Germany hitting east coast.
Agreed.
