Worst Case for Germany


  • Moderator

    Okay, I need ideas or things that work/don’t work in dealing with a worst case G1.

    There was 1 inf bid to Lib, 3 IPC to Ger, and 2 IPC to Japan, so I have 43 IPC to spend and it is G1.

    Russia attacked Wrus and Ukr and took Wrus with 8 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm and took Ukr with 2 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm.  😢
    Ugh.  My defenders only hit 1 inf in each.

    This player typically goes to Alg on UK and US 1 and plays a US Pac strat.

    I’d really like to go after UK which means either Atlantic or Med focus.  I would go G AC to Baltic, but I think it is just going to get trapped and if I have a bad Egy attack on G1, it is game over.

    So I’m leaning toward a Med Naval build, or perhaps lots of air and simply try and sink the Allied fleet.

    Here are some options

    2 bom build?
    2-3 ftrs? (or a combination of ftr/bom)
    ac/trn for Med?
    bb/trn for Med?

    Other ideas?



  • is still dont see why should you quit from the 1 Baltic AC idea 🙂

    you will just give UK your fleet on a plate and then you will be attacked in Eastern Europe also and the path from Berlin to Moscow wil be lost for Germany

    -not though that UK will land heavily in Eastern in the first turn, but in 3rd or 4th it could and with the Russian push from the east and the landings in Algeria, Libya, Karelia , Western Europe its just one more battleground for you to defend

    -but the fig thing seems to me as a good idea, so maybe one idea is 1 AC, 1 fig, 2 tra in Baltic
    -you ll have an offensive strength with your fighters but at the same time you will cause a severe threat to London, and you will be able to attack more easily at Norway and Karelia


  • Moderator

    My concern about the Baltic AC is if things go poorly in Afr on G1, I might not really be able to do much after that.

    My opponent plays a very strong Russia and with a large stack already in Wrus, he can counter a lot of moves.

    ANY Naval buy by me concedes Ukr to Russia by rd 2 at the latest.  So I need a way to eaither cripple the Allied Fleet early, or try and go long term for Afr, which is why I was leaning toward a Med build if I go navy.

    But the AC/Trn (or 2) for baltic is definitely an option, but I’m just a little worried about Africa in that case.



  • Africa isnt esential to win the game with the Allies

    -it can help a lot to posses most of (or even intire)Africa but there are alternatives to ˝Africa thing˝


  • Moderator

    I agree, but due to the bad start in Europe, I’ll need income from somewhere or this is going to be a very short war.

    Certainly Nor + Kar (if Baltic fleet) and a northern route with a threaten of London is an option but is it the best when confronted by such a good Russian opening.  😄

    Just trying to weigh Med vs. Baltic vs. Air.

    Keep the ideas coming.  🙂



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I agree, but due to the bad start in Europe, I’ll need income from somewhere or this is going to be a very short war.

    It will be shorter with a baltic fleet.

    He’s going KGF and doing quite well. You need to hit UKR and keep its income. Play defense and wait for Japan to help you.

    You also need Egypt and africa income. Baltic AC wont help unless you move med fleet west, which is risky down 1 fighter. Play defense and play the odds.

    Squirecam


  • 2007 AAR League

    Your bad starts means you must Survive with germany untill japan saves the day.

    2 ways of doing that.

    1. Use my Airforce strat with Germany (se strategy thread)

    2. buy 10 Inf G1, 10 Art G2, 10 Arm (or 8 depending on succes) on G3, and pray you break Russia  (tried that yesterday, and was wiped…  But to my defense i must say that out of 18 2´s i only hit 3, and russia hit a lot better.)

    And what are the odds that i hit 1 out of 9 Arm, and my enemy hits 8 of 9 2´s?…

    but both should give you a great chance of taking Russia out, and if need be keep the armour in Eastern europe and you will be in a good possition to kick some US/UK butt in Normandie counter attack, and then wait for Japan.


  • Moderator

    I would normally agree with that, but this opponent goes US Pac strat.  Well at least he has in our previous 3 games and usually goes by the philosophy of not letting Japan just expand without attacking her.

    I can almost count on a UK/US landing in Alg in rd 1, counter of Egy if I have 1-2 units left (or a UK unification in Sz 30 with all UK ME/Pac ships (with loaded trn)) and US will buy either 2 ACs (with ftr) or an AC and BB for the Wus sz.

    I’m open to the counter of Ukr even if it cost me rt or tanks, but I need to either immediately cripple the Allied fleet in the Atlantic (in rds 1-3) or play for the long haul which means I’ll need a commitment to Afr in rds 1-3 (or more).

    I guess what I’m getting at would be, would an ac/trn for the Med work, or just ignore it and do the best with what I’ve got and go 1 ftr, 11 inf and indeed play def.
    Maybe 1 ftr a rd, plus inf.

    I don’t mind playing def with Germany, I’m very good at deadzoning/trapping and trading, but if that is the case I need a way to counter the US in the Pac.  He’ll buy 1 AC and 2 ftrs a round with US.

    I still haven’t found the best way to counter that (even after 3 games).

    He’ll also unload in Alg on UK/US 2.  Which is why I’m inclined to buy a ftr a rd instead of tanks.  And it makes an African campaing very costly to the Germans which is why I want to see if the commitment is worth it, long term.  I can’t afford any bad purchases.

    Oh yeah, he’ll most likely buy air on UK 1.


  • Moderator

    @Nix:

    Your bad starts means you must Survive with germany untill japan saves the day.

    2 ways of doing that.

    1. Use my Airforce strat with Germany (se strategy thread)

    2. buy 10 Inf G1, 10 Art G2, 10 Arm (or 8 depending on succes) on G3, and pray you break Russia   (tried that yesterday, and was wiped…  But to my defense i must say that out of 18 2´s i only hit 3, and russia hit a lot better.)

    And what are the odds that i hit 1 out of 9 Arm, and my enemy hits 8 of 9 2´s?…

    but both should give you a great chance of taking Russia out, and if need be keep the armour in Eastern europe and you will be in a good possition to kick some US/UK butt in Normandie counter attack, and then wait for Japan.

    You snuck in this post before my other response, but there is a high probability that US will go after Japan.

    I’ve tried the “ignore it”, I’ve tried the “spend defensively only - minimal ship buys” and I’ve tried the “almost match him ship for ship” and have faired poorly each time.  And that was without Germany starting in such a hole.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Not saying it’s a good or bad idea, but if you’re desperate for Africa, why not get a transport in CMD?


  • Moderator

    @Jennifer:

    Not saying it’s a good or bad idea, but if you’re desperate for Africa, why not get a transport in CMD?

    I’m open to it, but it is a sitting duck (2 Rus ftrs in Cauc) without a purchase of a capital ship for protection, unless I bypass Egy on G1 which I don’t really want to do.  Not sure if I want spend 20 IPC on Med ships.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I don’t mind playing def with Germany, I’m very good at deadzoning/trapping and trading, but if that is the case I need a way to counter the US in the Pac.  He’ll buy 1 AC and 2 ftrs a round with US.

    I still haven’t found the best way to counter that (even after 3 games).

    With that buy, USA has 2 fighters, BB, AC, DD, Transport (19 def). Japan can have 6 fighters Bomber, 2 BB, DD, and sub or transport (32-35)

    Essentially, if you are SURE he plans that buy, Hit the USA WC fleet while you have such great odds.

    Squirecam



  • @Nix:

    Your bad starts means you must Survive with germany untill japan saves the day.)

    2. buy 10 Inf G1, 10 Art G2, 10 Arm (or 8 depending on succes) on G3, and pray you break Russia   (tried that yesterday, and was wiped…  But to my defense i must say that out of 18 2´s i only hit 3, and russia hit a lot better.)

    i think that this want pass especially if Russia buy lots of infantry, if it goes for thanks, artillerys than you have a chance



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I still haven’t found the best way to counter that (even after 3 games).

    why dont you try placing a inf or 2 in Ukraine-i mean the bid


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @DarthMaximus:

    @Jennifer:

    Not saying it’s a good or bad idea, but if you’re desperate for Africa, why not get a transport in CMD?

    I’m open to it, but it is a sitting duck (2 Rus ftrs in Cauc) without a purchase of a capital ship for protection, unless I bypass Egy on G1 which I don’t really want to do.  Not sure if I want spend 20 IPC on Med ships.

    Why arn’t you bidding 2 infantry or an infantry/artillery into Libya?  If you are, you don’t need to by-pass taking out Egypt can can leave your BB/Trn in CMD.



  • In this case I think you might have to rely on your dice G1.  If you have 1 extra INF in Libya send the med fleet west(Egypt is gonna be tough).  You know he’s gonna go to SZ12 great! Make him pay for Algeria.  Have you airforce in range as well as BBS, SUB, TRN then you can send his atlantic fleet to the bottom easily.  A buy of 1ACC, 1FIG, 1 TRN +INF will simultaneously shut down the atlantic and force the UK to go defensive.  Then turn you attention to those pesky Russians. Unfortunatly you now have to play D on the eastern front. Â


  • Moderator

    @squirecam:

    @DarthMaximus:

    I don’t mind playing def with Germany, I’m very good at deadzoning/trapping and trading, but if that is the case I need a way to counter the US in the Pac.  He’ll buy 1 AC and 2 ftrs a round with US.

    I still haven’t found the best way to counter that (even after 3 games).

    With that buy, USA has 2 fighters, BB, AC, DD, Transport (19 def). Japan can have 6 fighters Bomber, 2 BB, DD, and sub or transport (32-35)

    Essentially, if you are SURE he plans that buy, Hit the USA WC fleet while you have such great odds.

    Squirecam

    Good idea.  I’ve been think of being more aggressive against the US.  I think positioning my fleet better on J1 will help, as you suggest.

    @Amon-Sul:

    @DarthMaximus:

    I still haven’t found the best way to counter that (even after 3 games).

    why dont you try placing a inf or 2 in Ukraine-i mean the bid

    Too late for that.  🙂
    Although we play split-bid limit.  So in order to get 2 inf, I’d have to bid 12.
    I have considered that 8 bid is too low to begin with (with split bids).
    But I like the challange, I just don’t like the great dice Russia got.  🙂

    @Jennifer:

    @DarthMaximus:

    @Jennifer:

    Not saying it’s a good or bad idea, but if you’re desperate for Africa, why not get a transport in CMD?

    I’m open to it, but it is a sitting duck (2 Rus ftrs in Cauc) without a purchase of a capital ship for protection, unless I bypass Egy on G1 which I don’t really want to do. Not sure if I want spend 20 IPC on Med ships.

    Why arn’t you bidding 2 infantry or an infantry/artillery into Libya? If you are, you don’t need to by-pass taking out Egypt can can leave your BB/Trn in CMD.

    Split bid limit.  Probably the last time I’ll play with it.  And as I said above, I’m aware that 8 bid with split just might be too low.

    @nooob:

    In this case I think you might have to rely on your dice G1.  If you have 1 extra INF in Libya send the med fleet west(Egypt is gonna be tough).  You know he’s gonna go to SZ12 great! Make him pay for Algeria.  Have you airforce in range as well as BBS, SUB, TRN then you can send his atlantic fleet to the bottom easily.  A buy of 1ACC, 1FIG, 1 TRN +INF will simultaneously shut down the atlantic and force the UK to go defensive.  Then turn you attention to those pesky Russians. Unfortunatly you now have to play D on the eastern front.

    Not bad.  Kill the DD in Sz 15 with ftrs right?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I hate split bid. 😞

    Of course, I did find my first sucker who let me get a bid of 28 (DD/AC in SZ 😎  I only put it in as a joke too!  Guess he REALLY didn’t want to be the Axis!


  • 2007 AAR League

    Hey just a question but if you lose Egypt which does happen occasionally do you as Germany abandon Africa? and what do you do with your Med fleet assuming UK pulled its Indian Fleet into Med?



  • Darth, if you are REALLY interested in going after UK’s income…

    Buy 2 AC and a TRN.  1 AC each Med/Baltic, the TRN to the Med.  Load both with FIGs, and pull back to Eastern Europe against Russia.
    Have Japan push through India as hard as possible (IC FIC, TRN from SZ60 to Phillpines grab 2 INF, offload to FIC, stack FIGs in Phillipines)
    Russia may gain ground in Manch, then you come back J2, build TRNs, and then wipe out the Russian advance (which will be unsupported by reinforcements).

    With dual fleets, you can take Africa pretty easilly, hold Norway for a while (or at least trade it) and then work up your INF/ART combos (since Russia will be closing in, no need for speed) and add a TRN a round.

    US won;t be able to risk an all-out in Africa with Sea Lion being a real threat, that should give you time to secure Africa.

    Japan drives on Persia via India, Germany drives on persia via Egypt and T-J, and they reinforce each other at Persia, giving Russia a new headache to deal with as Germany starts pushing back in central europe.



  • Tried to build a dest + tranny in the baltic ? And move your med fleet west to deter any moves by the UK to land in algeria.
    With 2 transports in range ( 3 if he does not block your med fleet ) you force him to sacrifice his whole fleet just to prevent sea lion. and with only a 20 ipc investment you can still build a good deal of inf to fight on the eastern front soon. You can leave egypt open for a while if you like since his indian fleet can use it but wont be effective for at least a few turns and that should be enough for your combined fleet to take it out, and it frees up all jappanese troops fleet in the area to assist land attacks as he wont be able to destroy both the kwaturn tranny and pull back.



  • “Not bad.  Kill the DD in Sz 15 with ftrs right?”

    Im not sure you can…
    This plan relies on all your planes to be in range of SZ 12 in order to minimize your losses against the allied boats. So that destroyer will most likely stay floating. Unfortunately…

    Like I said, your gonna have a tough fight for Egypt. If your dice dont turn around its better not to prolong the agony.


  • Moderator

    First, thanks for all the ideas.

    Here’s an Update,

    I decided to go with 1 BB and 6 inf.  The BB went to the Baltic.
    Yes, yes, yes, I bought a bb, there were a few reasons, but the main one was I’ve always wanted to buy a BB fro Germany.   🙂

    Okay, here was the thinking, I figured the Med fleet usually survives until about rd 3 so I decided against buying for that and I picked BB over AC+trn b/c
    1)  It gives me a free hit on Def
    2)  I thought the bombardment might help eventuallly in WE, Nor and Kar so I won’t have to commit planes, as well as giving me a 4 on Off.  I do plan on eventually attacking in the Atlantic, and AC/trns are strickly defensive, and ftrs can always land on WE.
    3)  I didn’t want to commit to landing planes in Sz 5 yet
    4)  I think it is easier to add an AC later, pending his move

    I realize this means giving up much in the East but hey, I’ really wanted to try this with my Japan Move, which I’ll get to in a minute.

    However the dice gods dealt another blow to Germany in SZ 13 where both a sub and ftr were killed.  so, I’m down to 4 ftrs + bom.  Ugh.

    I took Egy with 1 inf, 2 arm left over.

    So UK countered with a AC, 1 ftr buy.  Went one trn to Alg (with 1 inf, 1 ftr)
    Didn’t counter Egy but move 3 inf to Ken (2 ind, 1 safr) and put his fleet off the southern coast of Afr and moved a 4th inf to Aus from NZ.

    Now for Japan,
    I bought 1 trn, 1 IC, 3 inf.
    I took a vacated Ind with 1 inf and sent 6 inf, 2 ftrs to Chi, took out the 1 inf on Bury and blasted Pearl.
    I moved my entire fleets to Pearl and Sol sz, bom is on Wake and 2 more ftrs on Japan.

    So I have
    Pearl:  1 dd, 1 bb, 1 ac, 2 ftrs
    Sol sz:  1 bb, 1 ac, 2 ftrs
    Wake:  1 inf, 1 bom
    Jap: 2 ftrs, 4 inf, 1 rt,
    Jap sz (outer):  3 trns

    Now he went but I haven’t been able to check the map so this is off his non-com moves.

    US bought 2 AC, 1 ftr, and I think 1 was place in Wus sz and 1 in Eus sz.
    I’ll have to double check that.

    Russia Crushed Ukr and is poised to hold, so I’ll claim what I can but go full defensive mode, while I try to put pressure on UK and US.

    If it is possible I’ll sink his dd/trn off of Alg and reclaim that, while blitzing a tank south and forcing the UK troops in Per/Ken to make a choice.

    It is going to get dicey on Germany’s eastern boarder, but I think I may be able to keep the US pre-occupied with Japan now that I have the initative and can move on my terms.

    The question then becomes can Germany just hold out for a while.

    Japan is poised to eliminate any Naval threat and take HI, Ala (or both), while still getting a small defensive force to Asia to claim Sin, Sfe, Yak.  As well as place 3 more units in Man (location of IC)
    He continued his defensive retreat to focus on Germany with Russia, so the offensive power isn’t needed in Asia, hence the going after the US west Coast.

    And just to show what type of player I’m playing with, I think he is real good btw, but he routinely will send 2 ftrs after lone inf and on UK 1 sent his 2 ftrs, 1 bom after my G inf in Kar and took him out.

    I can’t condone moves like that, not in rd 1, but it is very effective for him, he’ll do the same with lone G inf protecting Belo, Ukr or wherever.  The deadly planes vs. inf moves.  Generally too high risk for me, esp early on, but really discouraging when it leaves you thinking “if only my inf would have hit!”


  • Moderator

    Correction.

    Just went back and read his US moves again, the US Pac Fleet is in the GOC sz, not the Wus sz.

    Without looking at the map, I’ll have to assume that is the Sz right below Mex on the Pacific side of the board.

    So that rules out a strike on his fleet on J2, he has 1 trn, 1 dd, 1 ac, 1 bb, 2 ftrs there, but it opens the door for me to unify my fleet at HI and get two BB shots and take relatively easily, while getting as many as 7 more units to Asia, to continue gaining IPC.

    But As long as I can keep his fleet pinned near Mex, that is fine by me, and once again comes down to Germany just getting through the first few rds.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    Correction.

    Just went back and read his US moves again, the US Pac Fleet is in the GOC sz, not the Wus sz.

    Without looking at the map, I’ll have to assume that is the Sz right below Mex on the Pacific side of the board.

    So that rules out a strike on his fleet on J2, he has 1 trn, 1 dd, 1 ac, 1 bb, 2 ftrs there, but it opens the door for me to unify my fleet at HI and get two BB shots and take relatively easily, while getting as many as 7 more units to Asia, to continue gaining IPC.

    But As long as I can keep his fleet pinned near Mex, that is fine by me, and once again comes down to Germany just getting through the first few rds.

    Fighters can fly 4 moves, as long as a carrier can pick them up (if they die, the carrier does not have to move).

    That SZ is 2 from HI and you have 2 carriers and the bomber. Why cant you attack ??

    Squirecam

    Edit - I see 2 fighters are on Japan… So they wont reach, correct?


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