Religion and Science



  • Horten asked:
    I have a question for y’all. How did the laws of physics create themselves? how were they just there? When was the start?

    Well, from what we know today, it looks like this universe started with the Big Bang. Another point: we know that with slightly different fundamental physical constants, either the universe or the particles in it would not be stable. Therefore, we see this special arrangement of constants, as if they were different, we wouldn’t be there to see them. Same for the laws: if they were different, we wouldn’t be here to discuss them. … But how they created themselves, or wether they just popped into existence, i can’t tell. Maybe there are/were different universes, with different laws, but we can’t observe them.



  • According to theory, if there is an infinite number of matter in the universe, then there should be a person at this very time, typing this very message, on this very post, about this very subject. It is like a mirror. This might open up to the theory that different planets with different people doing different things could have different constants and laws.



  • A lot of physician belive the two universe are dependent from each other because one contain Matter and the other Antimatter, but nobody really know if the two universe have the same planet, we dont know if its really a mirror.

    If chaos does’nt exist it is highly propable the two universe are symetrical.

    About Evolutionist vs Creationist… i dont even think theres a debate. But i also know we does’nt exactly understand evolution and the creation of life on earth (from the sun ? from the asteroid ? Normal evolution of that kind of planet ?)

    But theres a living god creating all this ? Too funny… and completely illogical. We’re making a projection. As when we see a computer we’re thinking “A man create it”, we look at the universe and think “A conscience must have create it”…

    Our brain understand with correlation.

    Thats like those who said it’s “mathematicly” impossible/impropable that there life outside the solar system…
    Well we dont even know how it evolve here, we dont know if there other completely different kind of life, how can we say it’s impossible ?

    Another thing; look at the argument of the non-atheist; they always start they argumentation from a portion of our ignoranre, and finish with “so god must exist”.

    [ This Message was edited by: FinsterniS on 2002-05-17 20:14 ]



  • The mirror planet can still exist with chaos theory. Of course our brains work with recognition of past experiences. We look at the computer and say “man must have created this” because man did create it. As far as god not being able to create all of this, justify your beliefs.



  • I never says simetry would’nt exist with “chaos”.

    What i am saying is that god is a projection of ourself.



  • The idea of God is a way of explaining things we don’t understand. The big bang is the same thing. It is an idea, a theory. There is a good deal of evidence to support it but there is no absolute proof. Just because it is the most popular theory doesn’t make it fact. Although I must admit that it sounds very good to me. I like the idea of matter being recycled through black holes and spewed out at the center of the universe. I don’t think it’s very likely but it’s a cool idea. Also, someone said that with different laws of physics that the universe would not be stable and I’m wondering what you mean by stable.
    BTW, thank you all for responding to my question regarding macro-evolution. I’m afraid I still don’t get it, however. I may just have to take some biology classes and figure it out myself. But then again, probably not. Oh, and I would like to rephrase what I said earlier about God vs. Evolution. I find it about as easy to believe in God(a supernatural being we have no way of comprehending) as the Big Bang(a cataclysmic event we have no way of explaining at this time). Admittedly, there is a lot of evidence for the Big Bang, but how does a black hole containing all the matter of the universe explode? Basically my point is, either is possible.

    [ This Message was edited by: Tal on 2002-05-17 22:05 ]



  • quote: The mirror planet can still exist with chaos theory. Of course our brains work with recognition of past experiences. We look at the computer and say “man must have created this” because man did create it. As far as god not being able to create all of this, justify your beliefs.

    • i’ve been quoting you a lot D/c

    i was thinking - if i am walking in the woods by our cottage, and i see some feces, is it possible for me to say “a bear made these” just b/c it’s obviously been created by a bear and its prints are all over the place? or is it more appropriate to assume that given shifting weather and ground forces, bacterial action and a near infinite timeline, that it’s possible that the bear never made it?
    Also for you “we came from aliens” people, please tell me where the aliens came from? (originally - not the star)



  • We came from the alien
    is as futile as…
    We came from god

    Its to send a question to another question…

    Of course god is always the easy anwser… cause he’s omnipotent & omnipresent he doest have to be in time & place.

    Also look how arrogant chritianism is !;
    We are the center of the universe *
    Only human have “souls”
    We’re create in god’s image

    Christianism make us the physical & spiritual center of the universe.

    • of course now nobody support that kind of stupidity.


  • That was a bit harsh.

    CC - The only real problem I have with mainstream religion is it’s concept of destiny. People feel they have a purpose to fufill such as converting or conquering. This is the tie in with Separation of Church and State. This is where people lose their rights or their lives due to the goals of others in the name of their God. There must be a million examples in history demonstrating this. It reminds me of the film, “Patton”. Before one battle our hero asked his chaplain to pray for good weather. The chaplain’s response, “Good weather Sir, so we can kill our fellow man?” Patton’s response, “Well, do the best you can.” That sums it up…

    [ This Message was edited by: Field Marshal on 2002-05-18 18:45 ]



  • Actually, the we came from Aliens idea has merrit. It takes a lot for life to form, the chances of it happening are very rare. A meteorite could easily carry the needed microcells to begin life on earth.



  • Well, maybe the origins of our life is extraterrestrial. But little green alien did’nt make us grow in their laboratories.



  • Aliens don’t mean characters from Men In Black, it means something not of this world.



  • It’s seems kind of hard to stomach the notion we came from Aliens. The amount of time it would take for humans to reach the point of civilization in our current state, why would anyone really want to bother? I am assuming that the only species Aliens placed upon the earth were humans and all other forms of life had already pre-existed on earth. Of course if humans are lacking anything, it is patience, so time will tell what our true purpose is. Humans, the ultimate bio-weapons.

    Now the idea of a comet or meteor crashing into the earth at precisely the right moment and right size seems a little far-fetched. Then there are other questions posed of the right conditions to carry sustainable life and promote its growth. But anything is possible.



  • Only kooks believe that we were created by aliens to mine gold.



  • Or to become the ultimate destructive bio-weapon. 😉



  • I know.



  • quote: CC - The only real problem I have with mainstream religion is it’s concept of destiny. People feel they have a purpose to fufill such as converting or conquering. This is the tie in with Separation of Church and State. This is where people lose their rights or their lives due to the goals of others in the name of their God. There must be a million examples in history demonstrating this. - FM
    FM, you are a difficult man to dispute as your point is excellent and has been demonstrated many times in other posts (i’ve noticed). I’m the first person to say that this is a problem. I’ve studied, written papers on this phenomenon, and as a person who tries to follow Christ’s teachings, these millions of examples are abhorrent to me. Christ’s admonishments are followed not nearly enough (the Beatitudes in Matthew, the first and second great commandments, his judgements of hippocrits, etc.) by Christians. At the same time let’s look at, say, communism for a sec. My grandparents watched the communists slaughter and exile their friends and families, eradicate villages, and force my people to flee en masse if they could. Why? Well, they were Christians, they were well educated (relative to the rest of the populace for sure) and they were land owners (well, squatters as per Catherine the Great). Because of this persecution of a peaceful farming community of Mennonites do i say “well, that’s communism for you”? Of course not. That was Stalin and his 5-year plan, his paranoia and predilection for evil - not millions of examples of communism responsible for death and pain. The same is true of Christians (and Muslims, Jews, etc.). We are commanded to love, however you get a few nutbars in the mix looking for some power etc. and we are all painted with the same brush. And it’s not a nice brush. Few days go by without me hearing anti-Christian comments by classmates, there were more Christian martyrs last year than any before, and although i believe in antidisestablishmentarianism, i think that should go both ways, but it doesn’t. I don’t want sympathy, but rather for someone to take a different perspective on the whole “Christian problem”. thanks.



  • Good post. 🆒

    I liked your use of antidisestablishmentarianism. (Try saying that ten times fast)



  • If god is omnipotent….can he/sche/it create a stone which is too heavy for him/her/it to lift? …
    And Finsternis (are you german?): The theory says, that the universe is not symmetric, and due to that asymmetry only matter survived.



  • CC - excellent post. That is the point we must remember. Religion in itself is not the problem. Nor is a type of government. Christianity can be labeled as anything you desire due to the PEOPLE running it with personal agendas. A popular example is the Pope wanting to preach the Crusades to expand his Empire. Remember the US govenment is not even immune to this. Hitler thought it was a great idea how the US Government ethnic cleansed it’s native populations or locked them up on small reservations. Is Democracy evil? No. Can people running a democratic government do evil things? Yes, in this case. The answer is reform or revolution. The same for religious organizations.

    We all need to remember not to label a belief system (or government) someone has due to the wrongs of others in the past or the radical actions of today. IT IS VERY EASY TO DO SO!!! We all seem to fall in that trap! Must be some primitive hardwire in our brains that automaticly activates when something like this happens…



  • Oh yes, on the alien thing. It has been suggested also that ALL life on earth is from another planet seeded either intentionally by a being or accidently through meteors or comets. I’m not real keen on this subject, something about the limited number of DNA and genetic makeup in this world. Can someone help out?



  • Good post Field Marshall,

    Even though it’s been repeated numerous times, the system isn’t at fault. It is the people who entrust their power into the system and have it backfire that are at fault (not to mention people who use the system in selflessness). Take dictatorship. What if the dictator wanted to genuinely help the good of the people and did so using his power as dictator to improve the lives of everyone in his nation? Who is to congratulate, the person or the system? Also, the church and the pope aren’t perfect. The Crusades was mentioned before and you can really go into detail why their purpose and actions were terribly wrong (such as the mass murder of innocent Muslims in the Jerusalem church)



  • FM - i’m beginning to like you.
    quote: Oh yes, on the alien thing. It has been suggested also that ALL life on earth is from another planet seeded either intentionally by a being or accidently through meteors or comets. I’m not real keen on this subject, something about the limited number of DNA and genetic makeup in this world. Can someone help out? - FM
    the problem with the alien proposal is that it is not really necessary. I think all the conditions were here on earth in the first place. It also begs the question “how did the aliens/alien life-substrates come to be”?
    w.r.t. limitd number of DNA and genetic make–up, i think when you are talking “limited” you are really saying “approaching infinity”. For example, let’s say that gene size is limited to that of dystrophin (one of the largest proteins in the body, the failure of which leads to muscular dystrophy). This is a 3677 amino acid long protein coded for by 14 069 rna base pairs - the dna that codes for it would be much longer, of course, due to regulator sequences, other introns, etc). Since we have 4 different base pairs (ACGT) that could code for this huge, unstable protein, we have minimum 15000 to the power of 4 combinations. Plus 14999 to the power of 4, etc. (sorry - math isn’t my strong suit . . . although i can factor Asquared plus Bsquared). Anyway, you get the idea. The point is that genetic material is likely not our limiting point. Also RNA has uracil - so if we consider that an alien rna molecule might be reverse transcribed into the genome, then we’ve just doubled the possibilities. It’s crazy, but beautiful.
    cc



  • CORRECTION!!

    note: many of these above referred combinations would produce proteins far too unstable to be of any use, so one might pare the numbers down a fair bit . . . just occurred to me, sorry.



  • Thanks CC. I wish I could remember the exact theory, however, onward. I agree with you that the life on this planet is locally grown. I never really steered away from it.

    There’s alot of “alien intervention with earth life” theories. Everything from visitors mating with cave-women to Roswell. Most of us have read Erich Von Daniken’s books. But let’s back it up a bit and try to find some common ground.

    Question - Do you believe that life (in any form) exists on other earth-like planets in the universe?

    I believe it does. It seems very possible with all the star systems even in just this galaxy that some form of life elsewhere should exist. Whether or not these said planet’s life have developed an intelligent species or that species has developed a technology to visit us is irrelevant at this point. Are we the only universal petri dish?

    Opinions…

    [ This Message was edited by: Field Marshal on 2002-05-20 07:09 ]


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