• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    But any purchase of navy with Germany, short of another AC to land 2 more fighters on, is just money being sent to the bottom of the ocean.

    Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    But any purchase of navy with Germany, short of another AC to land 2 more fighters on, is just money being sent to the bottom of the ocean.

    Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.

    I agree and America in my opinion can kill the navy vrey early assuming Germany attacks UKs navy which i thought was the main point in the first place


  • “I agree and America in my opinion can kill the navy vrey early assuming Germany attacks UKs navy which i thought was the main point in the first place”

    I completely disagree with that assumption.  I am almost certain that it is designed as a defensive move against a KGF.

    To go KGF or to reinforce USSR, the Allies have to deal with the German fleet.

    If they try to avoid the German fleet by going north or south, Germany can move to cut the Allied fleet off.  The German fleet will constantly be reinforced while the Allied fleet is split.

    If the German fleet is attacked, the attack will be expensive because it is a DEFENSIVE German fleet, and if you fail, fodder subs hit the water.

    “Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.”

    It’s 2 Trn 2 SS 1 DD 2 AC 4 Fig 1 Btl with unification with the Med fleet.  It is only 1 Trn 1 SS 1 DD 2 AC 4 Fig if most or all of the Allied fleet was killed on G2.  Either way, Germany has a strong defensive navy.

    Germany doesn’t have much, it’s true.  But W. Europe no longer needs a stack of defensive troops because the German navy is doing the work of defending W. Eur.  German fighters can still hit Karelia.  Japan should grow in strength.

    Although I disagree with some of the assessments I’ve read of how the scenario will play out, I still think that USSR will expand early and take IPCs, and that the Allies will kill the German navy and use mass fighters to attack ground territories after the W. Europe fleet is killed, resulting in an Allied win.  Still worth a few playthroughs to see if Japan can possibly crack Moscow before Germany collapses.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @newpaintbrush:

    Yeah, if it was pulled off like that,.  But -

    1.  I think it was actually a G1 IC allowing immediate reinforcement of the W. Europe fleet on G2.  As far as I could tell, that was the whole point of a W. Europe IC.

    2.  It isn’t UK bomber 2 fighters vs lone battleship.  Every time, it should be German sub from Atlantic, German battleship and transport from Med at Gibraltar.  Germany attacks with a few fighters, and kills the UK battleship with no losses in most cases.  But notice that a German bid is essential because you can’t really leave Anglo-Egypt alone without paying a heavy price.  So this pretty much ASSUMES a German African bid that lets Germany hit; should be at least 2 units placed to hit Anglo G1.  So you have 3 inf 1 tank 1-2 fig 1 bom vs Anglo, you take Gibraltar with probably no losses, and ignore the UK destroyer, so it’s battleship, transport, sub against UK destroyer and bomber.

    Everything else depends on those initial assumptions.  Change them, and you change the analysis.

    Well, I was replying directly to Switch’s plan of using the Transport for Egypt and I assumed the defending battleship got at least one hit.  Forgot the German one could sustain a hit before sinking.  So we’re situated closer to 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber vs 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship.

    Even if you bring the transport in, unless you take Gibraltar, there’s a good chance you’ll loose the submarine, transport and battleship (assuming you don’t submerge the submarine) and England will be down a few fighters.  Net IPC gain to the Germans, but it still leaves your fleet pretty vulnerable to combined Allied attacks.  (After all, but US 2 you should still be worrying about a follow up to Englands attack on your fleet by 1 destroyer, 2 transports, 1 fighter, 1 bomber.  More then enough to sink whatever you have left, assuming you didn’t purchase a second carrier.)

    Anyway, PaintBrush, you keep assuming the German fleet will unify.  I don’t see that happening.  I don’t think that med fleet has a chance at all of making it to the med fleet, with the possible exception of forgoing extra forces to Egypt and possibly loosing Egypt, thereby allowing the British fleet to move into the Med to chase you and make a joint US/UK/UK/Russian Sub fleet and that’s just a nightmare Germany doesn’t want to deal with.

    And may all the gods in the heavens have mercy upon your soul if you do not take Gibraltar and fail to sink my destroyer in SZ 15 cause I’m not having mercy on anyone…my dice are so bad that I can loose 87% succuss odds on a routine basis, you don’t deserve mercy!


  • @Jennifer:

    Well, I was replying directly to Switch’s plan of using the Transport for Egypt and I assumed the defending battleship got at least one hit.  Forgot the German one could sustain a hit before sinking.  So we’re situated closer to 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber vs 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship.

    Anyway, PaintBrush, you keep assuming the German fleet will unify.  I don’t see that happening.  I don’t think that med fleet has a chance at all of making it to the med fleet, with the possible exception of forgoing extra forces to Egypt and possibly loosing Egypt, thereby allowing the British fleet to move into the Med to chase you and make a joint US/UK/UK/Russian Sub fleet and that’s just a nightmare Germany doesn’t want to deal with.

    OH YEAH, ok ok my bad.  I just like to jack threads you know.  Okay, lemme clarify my position on this whole AC/IC thing.

    1.  I think the AC/IC fails.  Whether it fails before Japan smashes Moscow, I don’t know.  I think so, but I’m not positively sure.

    2.  I am going to categorically state that the Germans cannot afford to send the Med transport to Anglo-Egypt.  It must be 1 sub 1 transport 1 btl plus 1+ air to Gibraltar, to TAKE Gibraltar and prevent the UK counter of 1 destroyer 2 fighter 1 bomber.

    3.  Because the Germans cannot afford to send the Med transport to Anglo-Egypt, you MUST have a German bid in Africa, because frankly, you just can’t afford NOT to kill the UK units in Anglo-Egypt.  I could even go as far as to say you can’t afford not to TAKE Anglo-Egypt to prevent the UK India fleet from coming through to apply pressure.  (But you MIGHT be able to deal with an early UK Med fleet if you unified off W. Europe G2; you could use that fleet to smash the UK fleet on G3.  Maybe.)

    4.  The Allies can stop the German Med and Baltic fleets from uniting on G2 by putting stuff in the sea zone west of Algeria.  But if it’s light, fighters clear it and the German fleets unite during noncombat.  If it’s medium, German uses transport and/or sub fodder and fighters.  If it’s heavy, Germany just sacrifices as much of the fleet as necessary.  Either way, the Allies pay a heavy price.


  • Youknow, i forgot that DST in the Eastern Med.

    TRN can;t go to Egypt (without a very risky battle that will cost Germany FIGs)

    So the TRN goes west too.

    as I said, this is just a concept, and not fleshed out AT ALL.

    One of those crazy ideas that just MIGHT be viable in terms of scareing the snot out of an opponent… “What?  Germany is not allowed to have navy!  And certainly not THERE!  And that IC!  And he is building MORE navy!  Oh Shite!  I am screwed, i am screwed, I am screwed… OK, suicide my fleet… how much INF can I buy as UK?  Hurry up America, I need defenses!  Forget Africa!  Hurry up Russia, push faster, even if it leaves you thin in Eastern, I need HHHHEEEELLLLLPPPP!”

    You know, somethign to inspire THAT kind of thinking in your opponent  :mrgreen:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Ah, it woulda been legit though.  Cause 1 Fighter, 1 Transport vs 1 Destroyer is almost a guarenteed win.  IMHO.

    Though yea, I usually just put two infantry in Libya on my bid then take Gibraltar with 1 infantry to stop any counter attack by England.  Whatcha gunna do, hit me with a destroyer and a bomber?  Sheesh!  Okay, I loose a transport, you loose a destroyer and a bomber. 😛

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    Ah, it woulda been legit though.  Cause 1 Fighter, 1 Transport vs 1 Destroyer is almost a guarenteed win.  IMHO.

    Though yea, I usually just put two infantry in Libya on my bid then take Gibraltar with 1 infantry to stop any counter attack by England.  Whatcha gunna do, hit me with a destroyer and a bomber?  Sheesh!  Okay, I loose a transport, you loose a destroyer and a bomber. 😛

    I thought you could only put one man/military hardware piece in one area and that was it?  Have the bid rules changed or what’s the deal?


  • @General_D.Fox:

    I thought you could only put one man/military hardware piece in one area and that was it?  Have the bid rules changed or what’s the deal?

    TripleA ladder bid rules limit one unit per territory or sea zone, with additional stricture that additional piece placed must be in territory or sea zone that already contains allied units (so you could theoretically put a German unit in Japan, I think).

    I believe LHTR bids are different, allowing you to place as much as you like wherever you like that you already control.

    Some tournament bids let you place only half your bid.

    Basically - it depends on what bid rules you’re using.

    (I’m so helpful!  I lol’d)


  • I playtested the WEur IC against KGF last weekend. I don’t think it’s that powerful. Here’s how it went:

    G1
    Buy BALTIC ac and IC, MED fleet moves west.

    UK1
    Buy 3ftrs or 2 ftrs and 1 trn. Fleet stays in sz2. Egypt counter depends on German survivors. Kill Jap trn with des. The UK Indian ftr can land in Africa, in position to strike sz7 on UK2.

    US1
    Buy ac, ftr, 2 subs. Starting Atlantic fleet goes to sz9.

    R2.
    Russia smells blood after G1 so they switch to aggressive mode against Germany. They’ll have to do the ground fighting for a few turns. Ftr(s) land in London (if needed & applicable). Sub blocks German fleet in sz12 – if the Russian ftrs can reach London the sub can be spared.

    G2
    London has 2inf, 2arm, 1rtl, 5-8 ftrs (4-5 UK, 1 US, 0-2 USSR) 1-2 bmrs (the UK could be missing). It can’t be taken.
    The fleet is merged. It has 1ac, 2 ftrs, 1bb, 1dd, 2trns, 3subs = DPunch 26 Count 11. UK can hit it with 4-5 ftrs (Indian ftr not included, so it may be 5-6) 1bmr 1bb 2-3 trns = Opunch 20 – 23 (23-26) Count 10 (11). US can follow with 4ftrs 1bmr 1dd 2trns = Opunch 19 Count 8. Normally the fleet will not last against the double attack.
    I don’t know whether Germany should choose not to reinforce it but I bought more navy in sz7, specifically a second ac – better than 2 subs – increasing Dpunch to 37 and Count to 14. That’s 47$ spent in the Atlantic.

    Germany could avoid the double attack by blocking sz8 with a sub. This means that they’ll lose the sub but they can avoid buying navy in G2. I only did one game so I couldn’t explore all possible paths.

    UK2
    Buy fleet (3-4 trns). Move fleet in sz8. You can buy the UK carrier instead to play safe. Germany won’t attack a double carrier fleet.

    US2
    Buy 2bmrs, 1ftr. Move fleet in sz8. Land units stay in Canada to discourage Japan. The Allied fleets consist of 1ac, 2ftrs, 2dd, (USA) 1bb (UK), 2-3 subs (2 US, 0-1 USSR), 7-9 trns (2 US, 5-7 UK) = Dpunch 32 - 36 Count 16-19. If UK bought the carrier the Dpunch is increased by 9.

    R3
    Press Germany.

    G3
    The Allied fleet can be attacked with fleet and Luftwaffe adding up to a total of 2ac, 5-6 ftrs, 1bmr, 1bb, 1dd, 2trns, 3subs = Opunch 34 – 37 Count 16-17. It’s only worth against a single carrier fleet.
    Assume you don’t do it. Should you buy even more navy?
    USA can attack sz7 on US3 with 1ac, 2dd, 2subs, 2trns, 3bmrs, 5ftrs. = Opunch 38 Count 15. You have D 37 C 14. It’s a close one but the US will attack anyway and withdraw if they have to. Also, on US4 the attack against sz7 will have an increase of Opunch 14 and Count 6 (for a total of 52 and 21 respectively). That’s because the Pacific bb and trn and the US3 buys (2ftrs 1bmr) are added.

    If you want your fleet to survive, you need more navy or you must withdraw to the Baltic or Med. In any case I think that the Allies are ahead and will win the game.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t understand the 50/50 Unit/Cash bid.  All that does is basically double the bids, instead of 7 IPC you’re bidding 14 or 15 IPC so you can still get 7 IPCs in units on the board.

    THe 1 per territory bid I’d never heard before.

    The full placement is the only bid I like.  I’ll play the 50/50 and I think if I had to play a 1 per territory caveat on that I’d bit 108 IPCs so I can just rail against Europe without contest. 🙂


  • 50/50 is designed to slow the bid.

    The thought is that a bid to even out the game is more fair is spread over 2 rounds instead of in a single round.  With th single round bid, and no restriction on units per territory, you allow for significant deviation from standard strats… Ukraine becaomes a tough nut to crack with 3 extra INF.  Med Fleet HAS to stay in the Med if you want Egypt on G1.

    Basically, it preserves core strats.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t see it conserving anything, I only see double the bid. /shrug.

    In a 50/50 bid no one’s bidding 6-8 IPCs anymore, it’s all closer to 12-16 now.


  • Nope, still 7-9.  You just play it differently.

    You wanna take me on with a 50/50 bid and give me 11?  LOL

    If so, I can slip you in after I finish of Sankt 🙂

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’m already on your queue.

    Besides, I don’t like the 50/50 bid.  On either side of the coin.

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