• Hi
    As i am playing Germany and trying to fight on a billion fronts at once, i think the 2 exisitng factories are insufficient. I think that any inf you buy and place there are always at least 3 moves from the frontline, so tend to go for tanks, for speed, and a defence of 3. First go last gane i transported 1 tank and 1 man to Norway, landed 5 fighters there and put a new factory there. This allowed the fighters to be within range of UK transports, whilst allowing me to churn out 3 tanks a go. However, this took 3 from other placements in Germany and Southern Europe so weakened that area, and left virtually nothing to reinforce the med or north africa. My opponent saw this and left the northern route of reinforcing Karlia etc with UK and instead used UK and USA to build a good transport line that setlled off Africa, thus threatning Western Europe and Southern Europe at the same time. If you try to defend Germany on all 3 fronts, it simply can’t do it and you will end up weak in one area with your some of your main forces in other areas, in effect out of the game. I thought about putting a factory next to the Caucassus, but a good USSR player should take 2/3 German terrttories first go, and leaves Germany in a position that a new factory that far forward leaves it too exposed. Does anyone have any ideas they have tried? Where do you see the war being won/lost for Germany - if USA,UK land too much in Africa, or get a good supply route to Karilia, or even fly fighters straight to Moscow to help defend it. i cannot see how Germany can cope to cunteract all these. I use Japan to put pressure on USSR from the East, but the allied player tends to put a USA factory in China, or the territory behind it first go, and gives them 2 tanks they can churn out every go from there. I no longer get into a Pacific engagement with USA, because i think that as axis you must be in a winning posiiton by the end of go 3/4 so time is a factor. I am even considering leaving Peral Harbour next go as i think that is an unneccessary distraction and takes the Jap fleet east for a turn, when i tihnk they are better going West, to pressure India etc.
    Anyway, enough of that. Does anyone else agree that a 3rd fatcory for Germany is needed, and where have people found the best place to put it?

    Thanks.


  • Hey FF.

    There is an analysis of this very topic on the Caspian Sub website.  It is in the appendices of Policy Paper #07.

    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/files/1PolicyPapers/

    In short, you can’t make an IC pay off with ground troops until it is at least three spaces away.

    Good luck.

  • Moderator

    Your 3rd IC, should be the Russian one in Cauc.   😄

    I don’t think you need another IC, just take your time.  You can’t take out Moscow in the first few turns so plan ahead and buy accordingly.  For Example buy lots of Inf on Rd 1 and 2, then mix in your tank buys as your inf stacks reach the Russian front.

    You can also try a 2nd trn for the Med, that will allow you to get troops directly from SE to Ukr or Cauc.  You may need an AC for cover though along with your existing BB and trn.  Although, I think just building ground troops is more effective.

    You are right in saying you can’t defend all fronts and you really shouldn’t try to.  Just delay on the non essential ones like WE, Afr for as long as you can.
    As it becomes clear you can’t hold WE move everything one territory East towards Cauc and in Afr move everything towards Persia.  Timed right you can have a German army in Ukr and one in Per to create a nice squeeze on Cauc.

    Now that is my personal preference, I just try to get to Cauc.  And in doing so I tend to vacate WE.  I feel the 4 IPC Cauc makes up for the 6 in WE and not only can I place 4 units in Cauc, but the Allies now have units in WE and to me that is much better then having them in Kar where it is easier for them to fall back to Moscow to help defend.

    If I time things out right, as I attack Cauc with Germany, I attack Novo (or Kaz) with Japan.  Russia can not counter both so you now have the positional advantage.  It is no longer relevant if you can hold Afr, WE, Nor or anything else because now Moscow is in direct threat.  And the Allies must go into full defensive mode of Russia.

    As Japan, I would not leave Pearl alone.  It really doesn’t cost Japan that much at all and leaving the US with that AC and ftr is asking for trouble.


  • I have to agree with CS… an IC close to your existing IC’s is a bad move economically.  Though I will say that there is at least one scenario where an early Germany IC in Western is viable…

    Darth has it balls on… the 3rd German IC does not need to be built, just captured 🙂  Caucuses is an ideal location for either a German or Japan IC.  And sicne it already exists, just go take it 🙂

    Grind it out on the ground.  Give up on 3-5 turn wins, and play for the long-term.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I have to agree with everyone else.  Germany never needs to build an Industrial.  They should get Caucasus, England, E. USA if they need them.  And 3 spaces away really is not as bad as you think.  In fact, moving faster then that means you’re trading tanks for infantry…


  • Very true Jen.

    The FASTEST you want to advance is 1 territory per turn.

    Ideally, you want to advance 1 territory every other turn…
    Take it, then reinforce, then move that mass ahead again, reinforce, then advance again.


  • All
    Thanks for the replies, some good food for thought there. I like the ideaing of suurendering WE. Leave WE looking vulnerable should force the allies to concentrate there, and so they are further away from Moscow. In my games if i lose WE or Southern Europe i tend to panic and think i have to force them back straight back off the mainland again, but i can see the sense in letting WE go now. My only concern is the ideas listed are a go-slow approach and when USSR is putting 8 Inf in Moscow every go, after 4 turns they should have 4 tanks, a couple of fighters, 30-40 inf (this includes reserves moved from USA factory in mid russia) plus any fighters that the allies fly from the UK to land there. That scenario sounds a bit like A&A Europe - the game always builds up for me to one massive decisive battle in Belarussia or Moscow, and give the USSR time enough stacks and stacks of inf, along with allied fighters i often fins it impossible to break down.
    I can also see that if Japan took areas of USSR, and Ger owned Caucassus, you can reduce USSR IPC, but ……mmmm too many possible scenarios to list.
    However, on my next game i am definitely going to try this approach, and will post how i get on.

  • Moderator

    I’m a big fan of patience, provided you have a positional goal.

    As I said above mine generally revolves around Cauc (or Wrus) as Germany and Kaz (or Novo) as Jap since they are right next to Mos.

    It simply isn’t possible to take Moscow in a short amount of time against a competent opponent.  So you don’t have to throw all your eggs in one basket early on for a strike on Moscow that is never going to happen.  Russia is going to be earning in the High 20’s for the first 4-5 rds easy, even earning 40 as Germany it will still take you a while to be able to crack his stack.

    I like to wait until Japan gets going, which really isn’t until rd 3 or 4, and then set up the double whammy.  My attacks on J1 are Pearl and Chi.  J2 pick up Bury and Sfe, J3 move to Sin and Yak, J4 reinforce, J5 look at Novo (or Kaz).
    That means the first 4 rds of Germany I’m looking to build mostly inf and fortify borders with an arm or rt (or 2), while gaining what I can in Afr.

    Then you spring the Vacate WE, move everything east and your German Afr army to Per.

    Done right you leave WE open but have large Stacks in Ger, EE, Ukr, with a mini-army in Per, while Japan has mini-armies in Sin and Yak ready to be comnbined in Novo (or just a Sin to Kaz move).

    The key to the vacating WE part is too make sure you gain something in the East b/c of it, and toomake sure you can hold Germany from a possible direct assualt just in case you deem it too costly to attack/strafe/or retake WE.
    You can always bring over Japan ftrs to help defend meaning you can have easily up to 8-10 ftrs there and then you can even threaten the Allied ships with a 1-2 Jap-Ger punch with planes if they split their fleet or get careless with trans.

    Also, assuming you got to Cauc at the cost of WE, it is much easier to then go back and try to reclaim WE later directly from Germany then it is to constantly defending WE from the Allied 1-2 without ever getting to Cauc.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Abandoning W. Eur. is that realy smart because then you have to defend southern and Germany how do you manage that … build max in germany nd move everything from W Eur into southern? and what would you do if the allies built an IC in western


  • It is the “For Rent” sign strat…

    You let the Allies land, then DECIMATE them with a counter-attack.  You make WE so inviting that they do not land in Karelia or Eastern, where it would draw troops off the Moscow push, or potentialy result in forces getting to Moscow to reinforce it.

    UK/US on the same front as Russia is a serious problem for the German advance.  And Allied land forces in Moscow make it one SERISOULY toguh nut to crack, even with a 1-2-3 punch.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    It is the “For Rent” sign strat…

    You let the Allies land, then DECIMATE them with a counter-attack.  You make WE so inviting that they do not land in Karelia or Eastern, where it would draw troops off the Moscow push, or potentialy result in forces getting to Moscow to reinforce it.

    UK/US on the same front as Russia is a serious problem for the German advance.  And Allied land forces in Moscow make it one SERISOULY toguh nut to crack, even with a 1-2-3 punch.

    I guess that would work but if you are playing even a moderate player they aren’t going to fall for it nd i would just send in like 1 infantry so i get the 6 ipc for a turn.


  • That works… I still got to use 10+ divisions on attacks elesewhere, re-take it with a couple of INF so I still get paid, and the Allies have made no more progress, and I ahve 10 divisions closer to Moscow.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Even landing 1 infantry ties up 1 transport.

    And yea, the trick is to sucker the allies into landing in force then kill them, or at worst, keep them landing there against a German build up, afriad to move into Southern and split their forces (gotta defend moderately to make this work) while you and Japan squeeze Russia to death.


  • I am surprised that no one even asked under what circumstnaces a Western Europe IC would be a viable option for Germany on G1…

  • 2007 AAR League

    under what circumstances would a Western Europe IC be a viable option for Germany on G1?


  • LOL!

    Fleet link in SZ7 on G2.  Full scale interdiction of Allied shipping.

    You drop the IC in Western on G1 and stage your fleets to link.  G2 you link the fleets, and reinforce with new naval units placed at the Western IC.

    Germany plays the same game as Japan in a KJF, only off France instead of off Japan.  And they rely on bulk INF and existing ARM to keep the Soviets in check.


  • @ncscswitch:

    LOL!

    Fleet link in SZ7 on G2.  Full scale interdiction of Allied shipping.

    You drop the IC in Western on G1 and stage your fleets to link.  G2 you link the fleets, and reinforce with new naval units placed at the Western IC.

    Germany plays the same game as Japan in a KJF, only off France instead of off Japan.  And they rely on bulk INF and existing ARM to keep the Soviets in check.

    Do you buy the Baltic carrier too?


  • You have to, or you ahve no Baltic Fleet to unify.


  • That’s great.  My friends and I always like to try new things but I never considered Germany building an IC.  I always considered a German IC as a waste of money and a purchase that kept much needed defensive troops from being on the board.  The western IC idea has some promise I think.  I may just give it a go.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I still don’t think a Germany IC is worth it in W. Europe

    You’d be better off building in S. Europe and driving there.  As long as you hold Gibraltar and Algeria you’re almost 100% safe from attack.


  • The thing with a Western IC, fleet link and fleet build as G1 and G2 is that it REALLY turns up the heat on UK and USA.  They have to spend a ton on Capital Ships in order to start sending land units to Europe, and it will take them quite a number of turns to build up enough ships for it.

    And from SZ7, the Brits have no where to hide their fleet while they build.  They are in range of everything in SZ7, as well as Western based FIGs thanks to teh AC’s.

    Early landings in Africa are now also a serious issue for the US sinc ehte Germans can interdict en masse at will.  Germany can flot a couple of TRNs to the Med and shuttle into Africa to secure it for many turns.

    Only Russia is a serious player against Germany in the early going, and if Japan makes a massive initial push to force Russia to play honest, then Germany can hold out into G3 once they start getting major land unit production (they will still ahve some land units in G1, and a pretty fair number in G2) and start the inexorable push back toward Moscow.

    I have never tried this.  But it sounds like a “fun” game, with the Kreigsmarine totally dominating the Atlantic for quite a while 🙂

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, it sounds fun, but I worry about loosing 16 IPCs for a Carrier on R1 and 15 more for an IC on R2 to pull this off.

    Not to mention, you have to forgo bringing any land units to Egypt with your transport now because you have to take Gibraltar to ensure you arn’t sunk by the RAF.  Means you’ll attack weaker, possibly loose it.


  • Leave the TRN behind when you mearge the fleet and transfer from Western to Algeria, out of range of Russian and UK FIGs.  You still get the forces in, with added defense against a US landing, and in a solid mass that completly covers Africa by the time you are done.


  • Ncscswitch, your strategy proposal is very innovative. I gave it some thought and discussed about possible Allied counters with a friend. We did not have a board to try anything out, so we kept it theoretical.
    We both thought KJF, instinctively.
    We also thought SA complex to secure African $ if you decide not to challenge the German fleet with UK.
    The KGF path is very interesting, too. We will get to it ASAP.
    I suggest that you start a topic about the WEur factory.


  • @cdassak:

    Ncscswitch, your strategy proposal is very innovative. I gave it some thought and discussed about possible Allied counters with a friend. We did not have a board to try anything out, so we kept it theoretical.
    We both thought KJF, instinctively.
    We also thought SA complex to secure African $ if you decide not to challenge the German fleet with UK.
    The KGF path is very interesting, too. We will get to it ASAP.
    I suggest that you start a topic about the WEur factory.

    With a carrier AND complex on G1, I’m thinking KGF.

    The German fleet can’t just stay at Western Europe.  As soon as the Allies have any kind of fleet, the German fleet must go to the Baltic to stop the UK containing Germany with Norway/Karelia/E.Europe units, or reinforcing Archangel.  Or the German fleet must go to the Baltic to stop the Allies from taking W. and/or S. Europe.  The easiest part to figure on is a SUPER strong USSR.  It’s almost like when Germany spends 30 IPC on tech dice on G1; the USSR just doesn’t have anything to worry about.

    The Allies will pull a different game, and force the Germans either to attack a budding navy and leave their navy vulnerable to a secondary Allied fleet with massed Allied air (UK and US), or force the Germans to split up (so it plays like Germany had never unified the fleets), or force the Germans to commit their fleet to north or south.  If the German fleet stays south, it’s containment in Europe while the Allies build up air strength that can take on the mighty German Med fleet.  If the German fleet stays north, Germany does not hold Africa.

    Basically, UK and US can race Germany for navy and air while USSR races Germany for territory.  It’s just very messy.  The big Allied threat in Western Europe is when the Allies get an IC built; I feel that Germany’s just building one for them.

Suggested Topics

  • 10
  • 10
  • 4
  • 24
  • 17
  • 14
  • 7
  • 5
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

29
Online

15.7k
Users

37.2k
Topics

1.6m
Posts