New Units

Ahh OK. And Paratroopers are for every nation right? Could we also think about stats for German SS troops and SS Panzers and Soviet Shock troops or and Guards?  BTW, couldn’t marines then also be for UK? Otherwise they won’t have any extras…

Lets not go overboard and making 10 new units.  :wink:

I think leave Marines as a National Advantage.

@Imperious:

so I now feel that 3 in the first round is ok and 2/2 is decent compensation also considering the investment in the transport plane that is useless as a combat loss.

perhaps the defence should be at 1?

Attack at 3 on 1st cycle if paradropped. Normal attack 1. Remember there is still artillery support. (2/2 plus artillery support is too good.)

Defend at 2. Because they would just fight as normal infantry, with supplies.

“2 if you have heavy bomber technology.” –—A heavy bomber should not increase this but i see where your going.

Yeah I guess it could unbalance the technology list.

I feel that in friendly transport they should be allowed at double rate 2 per transport

Doubling what? Dogfighting rate?

I think movement of 4 is better… Otherwise it will not model history too well because they will be dropped too far inland.

So Move 4. 6 with LRA?

Otherwise we need specific mention that LRA do not improve transport planes.

Attack at 3 on 1st cycle if paradropped. Normal attack 1. Remember there is still artillery support. (2/2 plus artillery support is too good.)

no artillery support if paradropped of course as a regular infantry 2/2 is good.

Doubling what? Dogfighting rate?

no transports should be able to carry 2 infantry as friendly transport to friendly territories. of course they cannt perform airborne drop in the same turn as friendly transport.

normal movement at 4 for airborne…possible 6 if friendly transport.

@Imperious:

no artillery support if paradropped of course as a regular infantry 2/2 is good.

I was wondering whether paratroopers should get artillery support too. We could argue they don’t have the suppliers, equipment and formal organisations a normal infantry division would have.

Referring to wikipedia on Operation Market Garden again…

A precarious timetable at the mercy of the weather meant that the 101st Airborne Division would be without artillery for two days, the 82nd Airborne would lack artillery for one day (and its glider infantry regiment for three days) and the British 1st Airborne would be short a full brigade until the third day.

So I am confused.

I don’t like 2/2 because I was thinking besides the initial surprise element, why should they fight BETTER than normal infantry? Are we saying they are elite troops or something?

no transports should be able to carry 2 infantry as friendly transport to friendly territories. of course they cannt perform airborne drop in the same turn as friendly transport.

normal movement at 4 for airborne…possible 6 if friendly transport.

Probably not 6. Cos thats like carry more yet more further.

But air units can move at +2 in non-combat anyway. (Now we have to update the rule for transports they have to be unloaded to use the extra range.)

why should they fight BETTER than normal infantry? Are we saying they are elite troops or something?

Airborne infantry had the job of quickly overcoming the enemy by surprise and by heavy weapons ( submachine guns and many nasty anti-personel weapons)

artillery and jeeps and other items were droped on subsequent drops after they took the objective. The combat value is surprise and the shock is a very strong first impression in battle. This combat value is of a limited duration because they are only supplied by the air and do not allways have what they need and thus they may run out of ammo, medical supplies,ect.

this is why in combat their combat value changes.

artillery support in game terms = fixed behind the lines artillery support

Paratroopers do not have time nor the ability to set up rearguard positions and install proper positions for artillery because it involves moving large pieces around unknown terrain. Sometimes the plane can drop limited smaller caliber weapons along with items such as jeeps to carry them.

Ok how bout this.

Paratroopers- cost 4, attack 2, defend 2, move 1.
Arty’s. by themselves, have no effect on Paratroopers at all.
If attacking like normal Inf. and there are two reg. Inf. and 1 Arty. Paratrooper may attack at a 3. (Like Marines).
If para dropped they must fight to the death, no retreat.

Transport planes- cost 6, 0/1 move 4. 6 w/ LRA.
May Deploy 1 Paratrooper. Movement stops after deployment, applicable AA fires. If trry is casualty, paratrooper is lost also. Transport departs after AA fires. Still must follow normal flight rules.
May noncombat 1 Reg. Inf.  In both cases the “cargo” must start in same space as trny.
Airtrans.  may do 1 or the other above not both.
If heavy bombers becomes available you may pull a glider, otherwise no benifit. both passengers must deploy in same space.
Airtrans cannot make a combat move without paratroopers aboard.

Optional- Gliders. If there is an arty or Inf. in the same space as a friendly atrny. you may choose to pay 2 IPC. If you do you may air drop with paratroopers. Arty does not shoot for first cycle of combat, ( it’s assumed that it’s being set up), may still be a casualty though. Inf. from gliders fight as normal. Inf do not get a Arty bonus first round of combat if the arty was glider borne.

I don’t like 2/2 because I was thinking besides the initial surprise element, why should they fight BETTER than normal infantry? Are we saying they are elite troops or something?

I am saying Yes. Paratroopers are defanitly Elite Troops! :-D :evil: And all countries should have an opportunity to get them.

If people want only 1 paratrooper per plane the cost should be 6 per transport, 8 is too much then.

OK here is another refined idea:

Paratroopers:

attack 3 (first round) on all other rounds or types of combat it attacks at 2
defend at 2
moves 1 space ( only if used as regular infantry) otherwise it cannot move ( it fights to the death)
One paratrooper can be carried by transport plane and dropped into enemy territory
each paratrooper costs 5 IP

Transport plane:
no attack
no defence value
cost is 8 IP
can carry one paratrooper for drop into enemy territory (done only in combat move) moves 4 in this case
or carry 2 regular infantry as friendly transport (done only in non-combat move) moves 6 in this case

The transport must begin with the units its transporting

enemy AA gun rolls can hit it just like any other air units flying over.

no limits on how many each player can build and all nations have this technology.

optional rules:

airborne infantry can also be used as commandos as follows:

They can be moved into enemy territory or transported by sea ( no drops)
they have the same exact values and costs as airborne infantry
one exception is thay can move 2 spaces and this move can occur in a unique manner:

one space into an enemy territory in combat phase
one more space out of territory in non-combat phase.

so if it wins the battle it can retreat in NCM even if it takes the territory in combat.
AS commandos they only have this option if they are not being dropped by a transport plane.

in this way the folllowing is solved:

1. the paratrooper unit has value even if you have no transport planes because it can now become a commando
2. ITS STILL A SPECIALIZED UNIT wether its used as airborne or landed as commando.

you can have some kind of unit to represent all these types of units:

Chindits
Merrills Marauders
Detachment 101
Rangers
british commandos (SAS)
German Commandos
All types of airborne.

@Imperious:

enemy AA gun rolls can hit it just like any other air units flying over.

if the transport is hit by the aa gun or destroyed in anyother combat then roll na rice and if you roll a 1-3 then the cargo dies. if you do not roll a 1-3 then the parratroppers contuines combat as normal.

this is to symbolize parratroppes doing an emergency evacotion or the plane already dropped off its cargo.

Yea good. was thinking about the idea also of the airborne getting dropped too far from target and losing their +1 advantage so now they attack at 2.

Idea:

roll for weather drift one D6 1-2=unit was dropped too far from target zone can only attack at 2 instead of 3 on the first round.
of the transport plane is hit 1-2= cargo is lost

also considering pre-emtive attack on first round but it may be too much value to this unit.

wait, lets not make this one mega unit   :? :wink:

I don’t know about commandos
we didn’t have a whole infantry division full of commandos now did we?

weather drift is not needed
the dice factor covers that already

yeah preemptive on 1st cycle would be too much value
they don’t actually fight 500 feet above ground

I am fine with both combat values
4 IPC, 1/2, 3 attack on 1st cycle
5 IPC, 2/2, 3 attack on 1st cycle
depending on whether you think paratroopers are elite infantry

transport would have to be 8 IPC
since we are letting them carry two infantry/paratrooper in non-combat

and what is the formal name and short form

Paratrooper PAR
Airbone Assault Infantry AAI
Airborne Division AD
?

Its only one unit but its named a different type depending on how its used in battle

landed= marines or commandos
dropped= airborne infantry
moved into enemy territory=commandos

this way the unit serves more purpose in the game and have some value otherwise it would be too restrictive to be effective. So we describe its utility to cover different types of missions. its really a specialist unit. Also it allows players to use it w/o the transport plane.

weather drift is too much i agree.

call it PARA

Paratroopers and marines are fine.
But I feel commandos isn’t.
(a commando division is not the same scale as an infantry or armor division? so probably doesn’t fit under the level of abstraction)

You moved to 5 IPC. Obvious you noticed “4 IPC 2/2” is unbalancing compared to “3 IPC 1/2” normal infantry.

Earlier I suggested paratrooper attack at 3 on 1st cycle and then normal attack (1) afterwards. This is show they need to overhelm the enemy fast.

With the marines I thought isn’t it weird to only give it bonus on the beach. Like it’ll fight good on the beach (against the odds) yet “worse” on the equal grounds.

If it becomes too powerful, we could go with the defend at 1. To show the mind sight of paratroopers/marines. Now we can move back to 4 IPC.

Paratrooper (PARA)
4 IPC. Defend 2. Move 1.
If paradropped, attack at 3 on 1st cycle then attack at 1. No retreat.
If unloaded, attack at 2. +1 bonus from coastal bomdardment ships on 1-to-1 basis on 1st cycle.

Tekkyy Its a real pleasure to know you…

Your mind is like a scientific experiment for ideas.

Anyway… back to work!

Earlier I suggested paratrooper attack at 3 on 1st cycle and then normal attack (1) afterwards. This is show they need to overhelm the enemy fast.

+++++ yes you did…I really feel the cost should be 5 IPC because 4 IPC at 2/2 is too much like artillery unit.

How bout this:

attacks 3 on first round 2 all other rounds and defends at 2

costs 5 IPC and moves 2 spaces.

It can be dropped from a plane and it has a movement of zero and must fight to the death

It can move one space in combat and another space in NCM. It can retreat as the defender if it moved on land. If it took the territory it can also move out of its newly taken territory in NCM.

It can also be landed by naval transport and gets the same combat values except it can reload onto the transport after combat (in NCM

The difference is we just call it airborne infantry and drop the commando name thing…

If you still feel this unit has too much value for 5 IPC then it can be optional rule?

BTW are you okay with the transport plane rules?

With the marines I thought isn’t it weird to only give it bonus on the beach. Like it’ll fight good on the beach (against the odds) yet “worse” on the equal grounds.

If it becomes too powerful, we could go with the defend at 1. To show the mind sight of paratroopers/marines. Now we can move back to 4 IPC.

4 IPC. Attack 2. Defend 1. Move 1.
If paradropped, attack at 3 on 1st cycle. No retreat.
If unloaded, also get the +1 bonus from coastal bomdardment ships on 1-to-1 basis on 1st cycle, like how INF does.

name
or Assault Infantry? (Airborne Assault Infantry + Amphibious Assault Infantry…both WWII terms I think)

too much value
not just value, but don’t want all-rounder
don’t need the move 2, defender retreat is allowed by default
as for panzerbiltz-like ability/mobility…needs justification

attacks 3 on first round 2 all other rounds and defends at 2
costs 5 IPC and moves 2 spaces.

attacks 3 on first round if paradropped, 2 all other rounds and defends at 1
costs 5 IPC and moves 1 spaces

fine with 5 IPC 2/2…slightly prefer 4 IPC 2/1

can be optional
new units (non-OOB) are optional already

Transport plane:
no attack
no defence value
cost is 8 IP
can carry one paratrooper for drop into enemy territory (done only in combat move) moves 4 in this case
or carry 2 regular infantry as friendly transport (done only in non-combat move) moves 6 in this case

moves 4 in NCM, 6 if unloaded
but is specified under NCM rule…
all air units move +2 in NCM —> all unloaded (bombs or inf)  air units move +2 in NCM

2 inf is a lot of weight

Cool a couple of great twists I like some of these ideas.

Lets see Here,

@Imperious:

OK here is another refined idea:
Paratroopers:

attack 3 (first round) on all other rounds or types of combat it attacks at 2
defend at 2
moves 1 space ( only if used as regular infantry) otherwise it cannot move ( it fights to the death)
One paratrooper can be carried by transport plane and dropped into enemy territory
each paratrooper costs 5 IP

Definitely Attack 2* Def. 2.
I feel a first round three is to strong and makes the unit too powerful, Now they are a of destroyer and tank strength. Too strong on the board for what they are. I see where your going with the confusion factor so how bout this–
*Movement of one space is good but if they don’t para drop they attack at 1 like normal Inf. that is how you are using them.
If para dropped attack on 2.
Transport part is cool
Cost should be 4. They have the potential of being a 2-2 like arty. It’s harder to produce a Tiger 1 then a Fallschirmjager  so 5 is too high. Also the extra dollar goes to the extra training and equipment they require.

@Imperious:

Transport plane:
no attack
no defence value
cost is 8 IP
can carry one paratrooper for drop into enemy territory (done only in combat move) moves 4 in this case
or carry 2 regular infantry as friendly transport (done only in non-combat move) moves 6 in this case

I like em Except 2 things.  Why no Def. value? I understand why the plane itself should have no def. value, it makes sense. But the only time the plane will ever roll a die is defending while it’s on the ground. But I bet That the Airbase they are parked on has something there that can shoot. So I think a def. of a 1 is appropriate, and  Since the trry departs after AA shoots they will never engage enemy units.
The extra NC movement is way too much and is a huge tactical advantage for the allies.

Tekkyy, why defend at 1? They’ll be just as stubborn as any other Grunt with what ever they have. They already have to fight to the death.

Whats this Defender retreats default stuff. Crazyness, Airplanes maybe but nothing else. Any way whole other topic.

I like em Except 2 things.  Why no Def. value? I understand why the plane itself should have no def. value, it makes sense. But the only time the plane will ever roll a die is defending while it’s on the ground. But I bet That the Airbase they are parked on has something there that can shoot. So I think a def. of a 1 is appropriate, and  Since the trry departs after AA shoots they will never engage enemy units.
The extra NC movement is way too much and is a huge tactical advantage for the allies.

++== OK a few comments…

The plane should not have any defence value against other air planes. I dont want these empty planes becoming a fodder for fighter loses.

no defence value stops it dead in its tracks. I guess a value of one works for defending with other land units.

On airborne i see why you want a 5 IPC value due to extra training. I think your correct!

The attack at 2/2 moving at 1 as paratroopers is good but i think they should keep this value due to their training. I dont like units changing values depending on how they are used.

The attack on a 3 during the first round is adequate considering you have the value at 5 IPC. Otherwise why would i buy these? Id rather have a tank at 3/3 for 5 IPC

I know its marginal but the 3 on the first attack is needed to balance the 5 IPC cost.

what you think?

@Deaths:

Definitely Attack 2* Def. 2.

I am quite flexible. It all depends what the unit represents and cost. And that has been changing in our discussion.

@Deaths:

Tekkyy, why defend at 1? They’ll be just as stubborn as any other Grunt with what ever they have. They already have to fight to the death.

Just throwing ideas around. Like maybe they are trained for all out attack.
That way players put down troops to defend a newly capture territory.
Rather then using the paratroopers to defend it.
Thats all.

@Deaths:

Whats this Defender retreats default stuff. Crazyness, Airplanes maybe but nothing else. Any way whole other topic.

Ignore that part. Its our AARHE rules. And yes AARHE is no ordinary house rule.
Same to our NC movement rules.

@Imperious:

The plane should not have any defence value against other air planes. I dont want these empty planes becoming a fodder for fighter loses.
no defence value stops it dead in its tracks. I guess a value of one works for defending with other land units.

Opposite.

Firstly, for Deaths Head 420 (standard axis & allies revised)…Transport plane attack 0 defend 1. Simple.

Now for AARHE, combat value 0/0. Defend at 1 is saying they get to drop bombs. They are not bombers. Only cheap transport planes of 4-8 IPC.
Dogfighting value 0/1. They have still have machine guns.

@Imperious:

On airborne i see why you want a 5 IPC value due to extra training. I think your correct!

Thats replying Deaths head 420 right?
Well he said
“It’s harder to produce a Tiger 1 then a Fallschirmjager  so 5 is too high”

Anyway, 4 IPC or 5 IPC I don’t care. Depends on combat value. To stop going around in circles…we could try to leave IPC cost to last.

@Imperious:

The attack at 2/2 moving at 1 as paratroopers is good but i think they should keep this value due to their training. I dont like units changing values depending on how they are used.

Yeah we’ll say they are assault infantry. So attack 2 all the time. Whether paradropped or not

@Imperious:

The attack on a 3 during the first round is adequate considering you have the value at 5 IPC. Otherwise why would i buy these? Id rather have a tank at 3/3 for 5 IPC

But you can’t compare with tanks.
The value is airbone assault. You can’t paradrop tanks.

Ok one argument against attack 3 on on 1st cycle…paratroopers are dropped onto a safe location. As well as locations left open by defender because its not reachable normally. In this model less so as surprise and rapid engagement.

Further value in AARHE. (The stronger attack is useful in AARHE amphibious assault, since tank and artillery do not unload in 1st cycle.)

So simply…

Partrooper (PARA) / Airbone Assault Infantry / Assault Infantry
Cost: 4 IPC
Combat: 2/2
Move: 1

Transport Plane / Cargo Plane
Cost: 8 IPC
Combat: 0/1 (in AARHE, combat 0/0 dogfight 0/1)
Move: 4
Carry 1 paratrooper in combat move. Carry 2 paratrooper/infantry in non-combat move.
(in AARHE, possibly carry 6 IPC)

Partrooper (PARA) / Airbone Assault Infantry / Assault Infantry
Cost: 4 IPC
Combat: 2/2
Move: 1

Transport Plane / Cargo Plane
Cost: 8 IPC
Combat: 0/1 (in AARHE, combat 0/0 dogfight 0/1)
Move: 4
Carry 1 paratrooper in combat move. Carry 2 paratrooper/infantry in non-combat move.
(in AARHE, possibly carry 6 IPC)

++++++ok these are fine values. lets add them to the rules.

And I think its compliant to your view too Deaths Head 420?