• Should only heavy bomber be able to?

  • Moderator

    Like I said paratroopers do not jump out of bombers, It makes no sense, Should we jump out of the middle gunners position or maybe the ball turret what do you think?


  • They do not come from Bombers but its the only candidate for airborne.

  • Moderator

    Why? Just cause the piece didn’t come OOB from Avalon Hill. I do not understand why everyone is so hesitant on new pieces, It makes a whole new way to play the game if you are lucky enough to get it.


  • I am not totally against it.
    I am thinking the new piece could be cargo plane too.
    I don’t know if I make sense though.

    If it doesn’t then I feel more towards implicitly represented by the paratrooper piece.

    Its like because its a strategic game all the game pieces should be some sorta division/corps. (Rather than a specific military vehicle type.)


  • Ok how bout this:

    the candidate airborne infantry unit is transported by a new piece (using the bomber for 2nd edition milton bradley) to a drop location. This is the only time the piece actually is placed on the map. If along the way it moves over an enemy territory the transport plane can be shot at by AA guns and or subject to aerial attacks. So you will want to escort fighters to protect it. The infantry is carried to its destination and it will get a +1 attack modifier for the first combat round only. Otherwise it performs like any other infantry unit. The fight is to the death… no retreats

    One transport plane can carry one infantry. The use of these planes for the turn costs 1 IPC for each infantry droped. If the plane is shot down for any reason the cargo is lost and the next plane airborne drop will cost the player 5 IPC for each destroyed transport plane.

    stats on transport plane:

    no attack
    moves 4 spaces
    defends at 1


  • Does this also mean, that no more then 1 transport plane at a time is allowed? Or is it OK to buy extra planes, even if the first one is not shot down yet??

    You could also think of a rule like this;

    Airborne infantry or paratrooper must be purchased as a separate unit, and has the rules you proposed for the transport plane build in. This will mean you don’t need the use of the MB bomber piece… (just for people who don’t have it, but do want to use the option) This means the trooper can still be shut down by enemy fighters or AA, and escorted by friendly fighters

    stats;
    Cost 4
    Moves 4* (but can only end its move in enemy territory, otherwise move like normal infantry)
    Attack 2* (only 2 when dropped in enemy territory, and only on first combat cycle, otherwise 1 like normal infantry)
    Defend 2


  • I feel this will lead to problems…

    the axis will buy millions of these to drop in africa as opposed to buying naval transports. It will become a primary form of attack if you actually have this unit on the map. Additionally it will become fodder in air combat and used in all sorts of crazy things making the game even more unrealistic.

    I maintain the “piece” is only placed as a symbol to note that infantry is being dropped by air into hostile territory and the plane only in this manner can be attacked by enemy planes. I would also say that in air combat these transports are taken last as combat loses.

    I would place a national cap on limits for each nation as follows:

    Russia: 1 per turn
    Germany: 2 per turn
    UK: 1 per turn
    Japan: 1 per turn
    USA: 2 per turn

    cost per infantry would now be 1 IPC per unit and you have a choice to drop as friendly transport or drop in enemy territory. If in enemy you get a +1 for the first round.

  • Moderator

    Now this is what I am talking about, people throwing in Ideas for this I love it. I understand that the “Airborne Arm” of these militaries was relativly small in comparison to the rest of the military strengths of each nation of that time, so a cap on how many are able to be on the board is a good Idea, but it should also be of a size that in it’s own right should be able to do semi sizable operations on there own. Ex. the germans took Crete with almost nothing but paratroopers, yes they had horrific losses, but most of that was do to there organization of there paratroopers.  What I mean is, When the Fallschirmjager jumped into combat unlike their allied counterparts, they were not combat ready. They jumped with no weapon or ammo aside from maybe a luger, when they landed they had to run to ammo and weapon crates that jumped with them, then they could fight. Anyway Do you think the Allied landings would have been successful at Normandy with out Para troopers? Probably not.  Personally I think that they were the reason the landings were succesful was because of them, all of the confusion that they had caused, and disrupting german artillery fire on the beaches.
    IMP Leader, Ilike that there is no retreat but that is why I decided that they should not move.
    As far as the transport planes are concerned, I think they should be represented by a piece on the board with stats comparible to regular sea borne transports.

    As for them being abused, I can kinda see were you are going. Although Germany has had it and they haven’t found themselves in a position to abuse it because they are so expensive and can’t move on their own. An Air Tranny is like a water tranny, expensive, but with the combat limitations and def. of 1

    My friends and I have all used Paratroopers in the way I have described them below
    @Deaths:

    Paratroopers cost 4 ipc’s they are a 2-3. Paratroopers cannot be moved except by transport plane.

    Transport plane Cost 8 move 4, They are a 0-1- May transport or deploy 2 paratroopers or transport 2 reg inf.
    During non combat if there is a paratrooper in range and has done nothing as well with a available transport, the transport may fly out and pick up the trooper for later deployment. Long range aircraft applies to air transports also move 6. Bombers Can carry 0 paratrooper’s because they were not built for that. Imagine the 101’st jumping en masse into normandy in B-17 flying fortress ,LOL, or even a JU 88’s dumping a load of Fallschirmjaeger all over crete, that Poo is funny! AA shoots as normal and if transportplane is a casualty the paratroopers die also

    Put this in as a tech roll or something they go as a package

    Now the piece that has everyone concerned, The Air transport. AA shoot normally at them with the exception that you roll 2 different colors of die. White dice figs and Boms.  Red dice Airtransports.

    1.Def. AA fires. Take casualties from appropriate colors. If any airtrans are hit, remove as casualty with cargo aboard them.
    2.paratroopers may deploy
    3.as soon as paratroopers are deployed transport departs
    4.If attacking player chooses not to drop on first round of combat, they may choose to take the airtrane as a casualty at the cost of the plane and paratroopers still aboard.
    5 Air tranes may not make a combat move without paratroopers aboard them.= 16 IPC- heres you fodder problem, fixed

    @Micoom:

    Does this also mean, that no more then 1 transport plane at a time is allowed? Or is it OK to buy extra planes, even if the first one is not shot down yet??

    Yes you can, folowing the rules for airtranes.


  • Air tranes may not make a combat move without paratroopers aboard them.= 16 IPC- heres you fodder problem, fixed

    I am not sure its 16 IPC  8 (transport) +3 (infantry)=11IPC

    Also the cost if this does not warrent the spending of 8 IPC. the value of landing/spending IPC for this type of operation is questionable.

    What about the friendly air transport to africa problem? or are these planes only for dropping airborne in enemy territories?

  • Moderator

    No it’s 16 IPC’s 8 for air trane and 4 apiece for the paratroopers.
    Remember the rule above Airtranes canoot make a combat move without paratroopers aboard, otherwise it could Non Combat 2 regular grunts to afrika


  • 2 paratroopers to too many and makes them too powerful. Plus they should not be able to be dropped in territories ‘inside’ of enemy territory… only on the outside as if your supporting an attack from an adjacent territory as well as landing (dropping) men from a farther point.

    I see that the requirement shows that the drop can only take place during the combat move… so that fixes the other problem.

    so what we have is paratroopers costing 4 each attacks at 2 defends at 3… zero movement?
    transport plane costs 8 carries 2 men… moves 6 defends only at 1

    is that correct?

    question why do they defend at 3? They really have no supplies to keep fighting once they spend the wad overcoming the defenders… I guess its compensation for 0 movement?

    So if they win the battle how do they move out of the territory?


  • Ok more reflection:

    Transport planes: cost 8 move 4 defend only at 1. They carry 2 airborne infantry. They can only fly in combat movement. If stuck in aerial combat if they are taken as a loss then the airborne units are also lost. Otherwise they drop the airborne on the first round (after AA guns if any roll for hits).

    Airborne infantry:

    cost 4 attack first round at 3 but normally attack at  2 defend at 2. They have a movement of one.They only obtain the 3 attack if they are being dropped from transport plane. These units are different pieces so you can keep track. On the turn they are dropped they must start with the plane.

    all combat they are engaged in is too the death. If they win the territory and hold… on the following turn they can immediatly travel freely to their original destination from where the transport plane started from when it dropped the airborne.

    each nation has limits of how many airborne can be dropped:

    USSR: total 2
    Germany total 4
    UK total 2
    Japan total 2
    USA total 4
    Italy total 2

  • Moderator

    What do you mean “if stuck in Aerial Combat” The only way I can see them being stuck in Aerial combat is on the defensive or the Paratroopers owner decided not to drop on first turn.

    @Imperious:

    so what we have is paratroopers costing 4 each attacks at 2 defends at 3… zero movement?
    transport plane costs 8 carries 2 men… moves 6 defends only at 1

    is that correct?

    No they have movement of 4, 6 with LR Aircraft.
    everything else Yes

    @Imperious:

    question why do they defend at 3? They really have no supplies to keep fighting once they spend the wad overcoming the defenders… I guess its compensation for 0 movement?

    Thats what Paratroopers did, take and hold. " We’re Paratroopers Lieutenant, Were supposed to be Surrounded"
    Thats why they defend on 3. And in that, that is why they can’t move. Plus it would mean Fortress Europe was worth crap in the sense of a 2-3 piece if they could move like conventional Inf.

    I find that A one round ability is not enough to really matter, unless a miracle is rolled. plus is one round of 3 really worth 16 IPC’s, No I think not.

    We have tried it that way 1 round, it’s how we originally started them doesn’t benefit them much at all, so we switched.

    @Imperious:

    So if they win the battle how do they move out of the territory?

    They have to be picked up by transport plane.

    During the non combat phase a transport may move two Inf. that start in same space as transport a max of 4 away, the transport does not need to return because it’s a friendly space, It however may use all of it’s movement if any left, after dropping off it’s Inf. cargo. Call it a Touch and Go.
    If the Air tranny did not make a combat move it may retrieve 2 paratroopers as long as the paratroopers themselves did not act during the combat phase, and are within the movement limitations of the transport.
    Reg. Inf. Must start in same space as tranny, to even board the transport.

    Paratroopers must be in same space as Air transport to perform a combat move.

    Definitely the fight is to the death for the paratroopers

    I don’t think there should be a limit on how many are dropped, more along the lines of how many are produced a turn should be more appropriate if you want to limit them. Personally I don’t think that there should be a limit on them. If a player wants to use their para troopers in the numbers you are thinking thats alot of money. Too drop just 4 paratroopers, it costs 32 IPC’ to produce it. so to do the massive airdrops that you or any one else could be afraid of, won’t happen until late game and that player will have nothing else, they spent all or most of their cash on Airborne… So you could Plan for it.

    Also, Paratroopers should be able to land anywhere providing that the Air tranny has a Friendly space to land in. What if you wanted them to support your main thrust with a blocking maneuver, you should be able to.


  • Paratrooper:

    Cost:
    4 IPC is ok. Don’t like fixed production limits though.
    Consider why it wasn’t overly used in WWII, and model that in the paratrooper or transport plane specs.

    Attack/Defense:
    1/2. Same as normal INF.
    Funny you guys want to give it bonus for first cycle…I am thinking the other way around. First cycle they are still trying to get a foot hold.
    (Still get bonus from artillery.)

    Movement:
    1. Same as normal INF. Bonus is can be paradropped.

    Transport plane:

    Cost:
    8 IPC sounds ok. Carry 1 paratrooper. 2 if you have heavy bomber technology.

    Attack/Defense:
    0/1? What? Like they can drop bombs on the defense or something?
    0/0. Dogfight at 0/1.

    Movement:
    6. Same as bomber. 8 with LRA. Not able to move unloaded is an arbitrary fix for the crazy fodder problem.
    (Should be like in AARHE, transports must be taken as casualty last.)


  • @Deaths:

    Thats what Paratroopers did, take and hold. " We’re Paratroopers Lieutenant, Were supposed to be Surrounded"
    Thats why they defend on 3. And in that, that is why they can’t move.

    I beg to differ.
    This is what wikipedia said about Operation Market Garden.

    Operation Market Garden has remained a controversial battle since 1944 for several reasons. The operation was the result of a strategy debate at the highest levels of Allied command in Europe. Much post-war analysis has thus probed the alternatives that were not taken. The operation also led to high losses in the elite Allied Airborne units. After the offensive operation was called off, these light units were left holding defensive positions, a role for which they were not equipped.


  • Paratrooper:

    Cost:
    4 IPC ( the problem is it take a long time to train these troops… they are specialists and that takes time to develop. I understand its expensive but some limits should be possible.

    Attack/Defense:
    1/2. Same as normal INF.
    Funny you guys want to give it bonus for first cycle…I am thinking the other way around. First cycle they are still trying to get a foot hold.

    The bonus is the surprise factor because they spend the wad fighting with great intensity in the early stages. The idea is to quickly overcome the enemy and secure the position. They are not prepared to defend too wall because they lack supplies…

    so I now feel that 3 in the first round is ok and 2/2 is decent compensation also considering the investment in the transport plane that is useless as a combat loss.

    perhaps the defence should be at 1?

    Movement:
    1. Same as normal INF. Totally agree they were still normal infantry except they had additional training. if they are not in a drop sequence they perform normal movement.

    Transport plane:

    Cost:
    8 IPC sounds ok. Carry 1 paratrooper. YES!! i think so too. Otherwise w/o any limits on builds this will get carried away and dropped every round in all sorts of places.

    “2 if you have heavy bomber technology.” -----A heavy bomber should not increase this but i see where your going.

    Attack/Defense:
    0/1? What? Like they can drop bombs on the defense or something?
    0/0. Dogfight at 0/1.

    Yea good point that will clarify that its useless to use them as fodder and allow them to be used also as transport capacity

    I feel that in friendly transport they should be allowed at double rate 2 per transport

    Movement:
    6. Same as bomber. 8 with LRA. Not able to move unloaded is an arbitrary fix for the crazy fodder problem.
    (Should be like in AARHE, transports must be taken as casualty last.)

    Right causaulty last… especially if they only can carry 1 inf because this makes the total cost 12 IPC rather than 16 IPC

    I think movement of 4 is better… Otherwise it will not model history too well because they will be dropped too far inland. They should be at 4 so they drop close to the front line. The idea of a drop in the middle of Europe is plain stupid. this would never occur in real life. A movement of 4 pretty much makes this rule self effacing


  • Lets now turn to Marines and how to add them to the game:

    I feel that they should be also at 2/2 but the first round only they attack at 3 and this bonus cannot be increased by artillery at 1/1. They would cost 4 IPC and the bonus is only good if they are landed on shore into enemy territory.

    ideas?


  • Sounds good for me that “Marines” rule. But U.S. only? or also UK and Japan?


  • Oh yea its only for USA and japan.

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