• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    A lot of discussion has happened over what happens with the British fleet in the Pacific…do they split up and hope to kill a transport and a submarine before being sunk themselves, should they take out New Guinee with Australian infantry, should they try to run away, etc.

    The question I want to discuss now, however, is just how bad is it for Japan NOT to sink the American fleet in Pearl?

    You might sucker them into a Pacific campaign (which many of you feel is a loosing strategy).  You’ll also have that many more forces on the Russian front sooner. (At least 2 more fighters, probably 2 fighters, a battleship and a bomber.)

    Whatcha think?  Remember, it’s going to be 4 turns before that Carrier can get to England.  That’s the equivalent in time to walk from Manchuria to Buryatia, to Yakut to Evenki to attack Moscow directly with starting forces in Manchuria.


  • You still kill Pearl.

    Japan loses very little power in terms of their Asia push in killing Pearl.  And they force the US to counter using their remainign naval assets, and nearly all of their air assets.  that means those units are not bound for Europe if US counters.

    If the US does not counter, you killed half the Pac Fleet, and 2 of 5 US Figs on J1 (one at Pearl, one in China) and you then sail back to Japan to protect your TRNs and make sure that the UK fleet does not pose any real threat to Japan.  You kill those annoyance forces, and then start claiming UK income form wherever they took INF out of, and make Japan that much stronger against Russia, and UK that much weaker against Germany.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    You still kill Pearl.

    Japan loses very little power in terms of their Asia push in killing Pearl.  And they force the US to counter using their remainign naval assets, and nearly all of their air assets.  that means those units are not bound for Europe if US counters.

    If the US does not counter, you killed half the Pac Fleet, and 2 of 5 US Figs on J1 (one at Pearl, one in China) and you then sail back to Japan to protect your TRNs and make sure that the UK fleet does not pose any real threat to Japan.  You kill those annoyance forces, and then start claiming UK income form wherever they took INF out of, and make Japan that much stronger against Russia, and UK that much weaker against Germany.

    That’s great and all, but doesn’t address the question.  How bad would it be to ignore Pearl and let America keep the carrier?


  • Japan risks loss of their TRN fleet if they do not kill Pearl on J1.

    THAT is a very negative impact, and one I am not ready to accept under current standards of play.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    But how risky is it?  You have 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers and 4 fighters to defend your transports.  Were you not just espousing the supremecy of Japan’s navy in its ability to crush anything the allies send at it?  Then why waste time killing them when you can move your plans forward a whole turn and secure africa for japan before the Allies are even ready to think about landing in Europe?


  • Because in killing Pearl, the US counters, and you get not only Pearl, but also 2 more FIGs, a BB, a TRN, and a BOM in the trade.

    Japan loses ships that, once the coastal territories are secured, are out of a job.  In exchange, there are fewer FIGs heading for Europe, fewer Capital Ships in the Atlantic for Germany to deal with, and ZERO threat from the Allies in the Pacific.

    Security AND weakening the opposition agianst Germany.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Who says America will counter?  Why would you?  Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.

    Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic.  Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl?  better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.


  • If you do not Counter, then Pearl is a freebie… kill a US FIG, AC and SUB to prevent them from going to the Atlantic, and still have your forces for homeland defense in J2.  Good trade for the Axis.

  • 2007 AAR League

    If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.

    If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Nix:

    If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.

    If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.

    Vs 1 BB, 1 AC, 2 Fig, 4 TRN that isn’t a very good idea with America.  IMHO.  You loose 35 IPCs in airpower you could use in Europe to get 16 IPCs worth of transports and damage a battleship that repairs automatically.

    And if you hit Pearl, most American players I’ve seen and played usually ignore you in Pearl and move to the Atlantic thus not wasting 1 round and valuable airpower trying to sink you.  After all, when Germany falls, Japan’s done for regardless of their having 2 battleships or not.

    Thus the only difference I’d see is that America starts with an AC it normally wouldnt have and an extra fighter.  A total savings of 10 IPCs (since there’s no point in America buying a carrier for the Atlantic when they have a battleship to add to England’s fleet) and in the total scope of 10 rounds, 10 IPCs is barely a dent in the 380-400 IPCs America’s going to be earning anyway.

    However, the ignored fleet can free up your units to strike S. Africa early in the game, or speed up the conquest of Asia.


  • @Nix:

    If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.

    Only if the fleet is in SZ60.  If it is in SZ61, then as soon as those US ships get that far from home, Japan takes them out with minimal losses.


  • Pearl would have to roll pretty well for Japan to lose anything.  Take 2 hits on the Battleships and you lose nothing.  I don’t see an American counter attack taking place, so it is free ships to destroy.

    I think you are looking at it wrong Jen.  The question should be what does Japan gain from not attacking pearl.  On the first turn Japan does not have enough ground forces to adequately attack everything it wants to reguardless of how many planes it is using.  Most of the firepower taking out Pearl comes from japan’s fleet which would be doing nothing if not attacking pearl.

    I don’t see the minor logistical help worth the huge military cost of not killing those pieces when they are vulnerable.

  • 2007 AAR League

    I would counter Pearl if I get 3 hits as America leaving Japan with a BB,AC,2 Figs against a BB, Trn as fodder, 2 Figs, and a Bomber.
    73% of the time Japan will have nothing left.


  • I make that trade happily, because the US usually has nothing (or only 1) ship left also.

    And with the US out of the Pacific, those TRNs I built in J1 rule the Pacific… especially with my remaining Capital Ships near Kwang.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’d actually take that trade as well because now America has to buy a capital ship and some fighters (probably) to use against my sister nation, Germany.

    It’s far wiser, and thus why it’s much more prevalent, to just leave the Pacific if you are not going 90% into it with intent to kill.

    But I’ve seen Pearl go bad.  I’ve seen Japan loose the BB, DD, SS and get stuck with an AC or loose the AC, DD, SS and get stuck with just the BB.  If that’s the case, I’m going to kill that BB.  Best chance I’ll ever have and I don’t even need my BB to do it.

    Build 2 AC, 1 Fig.  Get some transports up on USA2.  Start goin after Japan itself, forget the islands.  Ostrasize IT, then clear off islands.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    American Pac Strat, absolute best ever!

    Japan island conquered on US #3!!!

    Builds:

    (First note that Pearl was not done.)

    1 BB, 1 AC.

    3 Tran

    Ground units with change.

    Staged fleet on US 1 and US 2 in Alaska.

    US 3 invaded Sea Zone 60, left empty so Japan could shuffle directly into Manchuria instead of Buryatia (Bury had 10 Infantry, 2 Fighters and a tank from Russia in it.)

    End:

    5 Infantry, 5 Armor (5 Transports), 2 Battleships, 4 Fighters vs 1 Fighter, 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery.

    B….E…A…utiful!


  • And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?


  • If you dont kill pearl you will be in deep shit soon.

    US can pretty well do a pacific campagne and with their fleet intact it will cost then 1 turn to build and the next they will be coming for your IPC’s
    Remember that even though you got a bigger total japan fleet turn 1 it is not at the same spot ready to strike after you did your moves. Having a US fleet near you means you cant leave trannies unguarded and need to have bigger fleet thus disableing flexibility.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?

    It was a tournament game at Northern Illinois University.  He was so busy worrying about helping Germany and thought he could take Russia before America posed a threat.  However, he - to his own admission - forgot that the Japan Sea Zone was split in two and thus felt safe in not overly stacking his capital.

    He did reclaim it, since America was reduced to 1 tank, 3 fighters, but the Axis never recovered after that.

    Though, I wouldn’t call him comatose.  I think that’s a little harsh.  We all make mistakes - especially when there’s no odds calculators around to determine optimal attacking conditions. (A fact that I think artifically raises the skill levels of some online players, myself included.)


  • If you rely on sims, then yes.

    But I’ll be honest, I am not reliant on sims, and I tend to use them only to confirm my own evaluations (or to generate an actual percentage for purposes of discussion).

    The vast majority of my moves (at least in the games that are “move a day” paced) are worked out in my head while driving all over the eastern Carolinas.


  • @Jennifer:

    Who says America will counter?  Why would you?  Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.

    Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic.  Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl?  better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.

    If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.


  • The general principle with Japan is “security and dominion”

    They gain security by destroying the intial challenges to their Pacific dominance (wiping out all or most of teh UK and US fleets in J1)
    They go for Dominion by conqueoring all of China, Siberia, India, and the Middle East.

    If the US goes into the Pacific, then Japan spends additional resources on security, but they never need to do so to the extent of surrendering dominion.  They may be slowed, but except in rare and high risk Allies strats, Japan WILL achieve both in a typical game.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Sp4nky:

    @Jennifer:

    Who says America will counter?  Why would you?  Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.

    Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic.  Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl?  better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.

    If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.

    Japan cannot hope to win an American campaign.  There’s no benefit to the American player or the allies as a whole in destroying whatever naval assets Japan has left in Hawaii.  There is great risk in doing so.  And, on top of all that, you are now 2 turns out from moving your battleship to the Atlantic instead of 1 turn out. (SZ 55 to SZ 20 to SZ 10 vs SZ 55 to SZ 52 to SZ 19 to SZ 10)  Assuming it lives.

    What do you gain?  Not much.  Personally, I never use a Battleship in teh attack at pearl anyway.  2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Destroyer and 1 Submarine are more then capable (98% chance to win) agianst the Americans.  meanwhile, my battleships can be moved into position to either hit the English fleet or support my landings where needed.

    So you counter Hawaii…you sink maybe the destroyer that’s left, assuming Hawaii only got one hit, not 2 or 3.  Now I have a chance to greatly aid my German partner by sinking America’s only capital ship reducing the Allies to one. (Or even zero, if Russia didn’t move their sub to SZ2 and Germany hit the BB there with a fighter, bomber and submarine)

    Dunno, the American counter at pearl is a huge risk for almost no gain.  Even trading BB for BB isn’t a wise move on America’s part.  UNLESS (and here’s the butt, guys) UNLESS America and England have decided to go on a KJF strategy.  In which case you’ll need 10 infantry from Russia, an IC in India, the British fleet and you’ll need to produce 3 capitals for America (2 if Pearl isn’t sunk.)


  • Leaving Pearl Harbor alone is a pretty bad idea.  I WOULD do it, though, if I had an even better target; those usually involve either an isolated stack of USSR infantry in Burytia (kill them at the loss of only two-three Jap infantry, and the Soviet Far East is wide open), or if India had an IC and just required a few extra fighters to take.  In both cases, the Japanese transports must be protected at any cost, of course, and assume a good German position.

    Basically, the US can mount a powerful attack in the Pacific very quickly, but it doesn’t matter because Moscow is going to fall to massed Japanese units pushing from the east and Germans pushing from the west.  It is horribly difficult to overcome the loss of an India with an industrial complex built by UK during its turn, or the loss of six USSR infantry that have no support.


  • I’ve had both experiences with the U.S.

    i’ve gotten my Pearl fleet killed, most of the times, on J1, and have concentrated mainly on Germany.
    But on one game, not a long time ago, I was playing KGF, and my Pearl fleet was not attacked on J1. Japan was concentrating on mainland, and was almost reaching Moscow, to kill Russia and help Germany. In one or two turns I used my still alive Pearl fleet, and built a few trannies/battleship/destroyer, etc. and went up through Alaska. This got Japan of guard, and the Japan player had to stall it’s attack on Russia for a few turns, and reinforce Manchuria/Japan, which were the main points that I could attack. Eventually, with no help, Germany got smashed, and Russia survived, and after that, it was only downfall for the Axis.
    My Pearl fleet cost Japan the game.

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