AARHE: Phase 3: Income



  • In OOB/LHTR, while your capital is not under your control you:
    *can’t collect income
    *can’t build
    *can’t research

    Should that be changed?
    Should you be able to fight on like free French?

    I am thinking still collect income and still able to build. But can’t research.

    Or if too powerful then can only raise troops at VC but can’t build units at IC.


    Our current income rules:
    *IPC to be stored must have a path to your Capital.
    *IPC to be spent must have a path to the particular IC (Industrial Complex) or VC (Victory City).
    *A territory being attacked for 3 or more cycles of combat in a turn its income is reduced by about 25%.
    *Upkeep of 1 IPC/unit in dessert terrain (Sahara and Saudi Arabia).


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    No Capital:  You earn 50% income from free territories, the enemy earns 50%.  You can spend that money at any free IC (turning that IC into your new capital.)  If you are Britian or America you can in exchange give taht money to your ally.

    Also, I think collect income shoudl be done at the start of your turn.

    Collect Income
    Roll Technology
    Purchase Units
    Initiate Combat
    Resolve Combat
    Non-Combat Movement
    Place Units


  • Moderator

    Loss of Capitals does destroy your Research capability, mainly cause you cannot impement it into factory production if it doesn’t flow through the right channels… In the case of the Free French, they could still fight because they had manpower amassed in Britain via Dunkirk, but they lost all their cities and factories, making there production capacity paralyzed… I don’t think you should lose “production”… The goal is to “Free” your capital now from the scums that took it, and since no one in WW2 (in the major powers) was forced to retake a capital…g

    I second what Jen’s says, Income Collection is at the beginning of your turn… I have playtested this idea, and have found it makes players more apt to strengthen territories so that they are harder to take…

    GG



  • yeah it is very important you collect income at the beginning of the turn
    we organised that in phase 1 already under “Game Sequence” or something
    (as Imperious put it, its stupid to invade Western Europe 20 times in a game)

    if you are reading this Imperious tell me what you think about collecting income and building units without control of capital


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Losing a capital is no meaning in terms of continuing or not losing the war.

    If London fell England would carry on in Canada/ India/ Austrailia

    If Moscow fell Stalin would continue until his other major factories fell

    If Berlin fell and Germany still had the Ruhr or large portions of territory they would still fight on.

    In each case the major factor is the ability to fight the war… hence the factories ( e.g. factories)

    a player does not lose the game if he has any factories still under his control. Once they are lost to the enemy he must sue for peace.

    exceptions: Italy and France  If they lose capital they lose… thats because … well we wont go there… 😉

    When your “capital falls” you just lose use of a factory and the value of the territory. Otherwise you continue to perform all other duties on your turn.

    exceptions: research ability is stopped cold ( no free rolls).

    WE came up with the income idea at harris site in 2004. it is nothing new and its allready in the draft since day one.



  • further details on the research part

    you don’t get to research
    you enemy doesn’t gain your research capacity right?

    what about research progress
    do you lose all boxes on uncompleted technologies?

    and technology transfer
    does UK/US or Germany/Italy still get to transfer to or accept from a friendly without control of their capital ?


  • Moderator

    1. That is a hard one… We were able to capture some German Jets towards the ends of the war… I assume that a lot of the research material was destroyed, but we could have figured it out… It all comes down to whether you want another die roll…
    2. YES! You lose infrastructure…
    3. Yes, assuming that Scientists are in exile…

    GG


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    you don’t get to research
    you enemy doesn’t gain your research capacity right?

    ++++ no they dont… perhaps they can gain a number of free rolls for tech… obviously in the allies case this evidence would have been destroyed… in Germanys case it doesnt matter because the game is over anyway if germans fall and or it gets destroyed

    what about research progress
    do you lose all boxes on uncompleted technologies?

    ++++ no they are assumed to be transferd to other territories… you play on as long as you got one factory

    and technology transfer
    does UK/US or Germany/Italy still get to transfer to or accept from a friendly without control of their capital ?

    ++++ allied tech transfer should be possible only if your partner has lost the game…

    If the Soviets lost the game… any tech should be assumed to go to the allies on their next turn, while the enemy can obtain a number of free rolls based on your sucess while you were playing… thus if you were the soviets and were able to check off about 6 boxes then germany gets 6 free tech rolls on her next turn. ( this is an example of the idea… not the actual idea)


  • Moderator

    So now is your Factories your “Research Centers” or atleast the representation of them? Do you get higher rolls if you have more factories?

    GG


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Hmmm not considered, but it could work… each factory you own you get one free tech roll… nice idea!!!


  • Moderator

    Well, we make it represent some kind of “Military Infrastructure”, and whether that infrastructure is Technology or Factory, I think it should come into play, especially with your opinion on issue #2…

    GG



  • ++++ allied tech transfer should be possible only if your partner has lost the game…

    but over at Technology thread we made technology transfer possible between US/UK andd Germany/Italy
    for one minor tech per turn


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    oh yea forgot that your correct


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Maybe if you loose a capital you can only build infantry up to the value of the land?  (Novosibirsk would allow you to build 2 infantry.  India 3, etc.)


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats not realistic. Tank Factories dont stop churning out tanks of the capital falls. The raw materials dont come from the capital. The nations resolve to conclude peace or its ability to stop making military hardware are the crucial factors. Even the french fought with their own units as free french years after losing Paris. They even landed entire armored divisions ( primarilly outfitted from britian, but also helped from income from french colonies not axis occupied.



  • Maybe if you loose a capital you can only build infantry up to the value of the land?

    Infantry is no longer constructed at IC (Industrial Complex) but VC (Victory City).
    Each VC has points (VCP) which determines how many infantry they can raise there, per turn.
    Whether you have control of your capital you just can’t build 10 INF at UK, for example.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes that should be it as far as what happens.



  • @Imperious:

    Further i was thinking about convoy boxes (ala AA europe/ Pacific) I know we have addressed economic attacks on individual territorys, but the sea lanes also represent the interception of income that was dependant on colonies ( mostly UK, Japan, and USA) but we could/ should add a convoy box for italy that could be attacked from malta. This would be accurate. attacking the box could be just roll d6= lost IPC or roll 1-2=1 ipc, 3-4=2 ipc, 5-6=4 ipc lost

    well we’ve yet to tune SBR (Strategic Bombing Raid) but planned for phase 3

    so far with our blockade rule –-> with respect to naval income intercept
    income source: islands are easily affected
    income destination: islands are easily affected

    its currently on/off system
    we were going to add a D6 component to it but have yet to



  • @Guerrilla:

    Maybe… I was even thinking that it was a “transfer” point for foreign IPC’s, so that either you build Oversea IPC’s to get “bigger” equipment or spend Commonwealth money on Infantry… It can transfer up to a certain amount of cash per turn out of it, which can be off board and transferred to the home country at the beginning of the next round… It then can be preyed on… The IPC’s are represented by chits…

    Yes very applicable to UK and Japan.
    Island homeland.
    Dependent on trade.

    But I feel its difficult with convoy boxes.
    In AAPacific and AAEurope with had smaller sea zones (more sea zones).


  • Moderator

    Don’t make it convoy boxes, make it an offboard players aid… For Britain there is a African Convoy, Indian Convoy, Australian Convoy, and Canadian Convoy… Each of those have a starting place (India for the Indian Convoy, etc.), and a chit to track movement… The enemy has to search roll for them to attack…

    GG


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yea that offboard thing is better… because it does not involve players to change their maps. Player aids are the way to go. WE only have to delininate the different oceans so that when you have a sub or ship then they can roll for the possibility of sinking “abstracted” ships in shipping lanes… so only the location need to be identified.


  • Moderator

    The Location is “known” (a chit represents its path, allowing players to cover them…).  Strays in shipping lanes rarely were hit, they usually traveled together to avoid that… After a Convoy reaches the Home Factory, it can cash in the IPC’s and is removed from the board, to be used later when they want to start a new shipment… This allows for several convoys to be shipping out at once, and since they all move in combat move it doesn’t complicate it anymore… The Convoy is now placed face up representing its arrival in port, and is considered unloading… The enemy still gets a chance to interdict, but now it is covered by CAP and AA Guns… That is my basic idea…

    GG



  • whether its actual convoy box or just identify locations
    its still like convoy

    the question wouldn’t convoy reroute to go around hostile sea regions?


    we could try to incorporate that convoy aspect by tuning the current blockade rule

    currently the blockade rule basically imply that if a territories naval port is blocked, it uses a different naval port at adjacent territory

    if thats not realistic we can change that

    if possible I am hoping a simple global-style rule to model convoy



  • I suspect germany would not take part in this, but lend lease aid to Soviets could take a hit.

    Lend Lease is already sinkable by combat


  • Moderator

    The "Dodging of Hostile SZ’s would be represented clearly if you had a chit represent convoys… The player could do that directly…

    GG


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