• 2007 AAR League

    the thing is Hitler wouldn’t repent….

    so its not twised and sick as you may think

    and why is the King James Version the problem? it is the best version to use.
    they took I don’t know how many translators to translate that from the jewish language to english.

    I am unsure why you are calling me a fanatic?
    I am not forcing this upon anyone. I am stating that men choose to sin on there own free will and because of sin you cannot enter into heaven unless you are saved.

    people who are good there whole lives wont get there for being good. Life if you have realized isn’t fair, so if they knew the truth that they had to be saved and arn’t then its there own fault.

    you are a non-religious fanatic then? oops did I just say that… :evil:


  • @NoMercy:

    and why is the King James Version the problem? it is the best version to use.

    It is filled with translation errors.

    Some scholars working with Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew versions regard the KJV as an inferior English translation of the Bible (see Dynamic equivalence). They suggest that its value lies in its poetic language at the cost of accuracy in translation. Because of linguistic research and more recently available manuscripts, the KJV is regarded as a poor representation of ancient scripture by such scholars. Many of today’s leading exegetes (Walter Brueggemann, Marcus Borg, Warren Carter, James L. Crenshaw, Robert W. Funk, John Dominic Crossan, and N.T. Wright) do not endorse the KJV for Masters or Doctoral-level exegetical work

    It had missing sections.

    The original printing of the King James Version included the Apocrypha, so named in the text. It contained all the books and sections of books present in the Latin Vulgate’s Old Testament but missing in the Hebrew. Under the Thirty-Nine Articles, the doctrinal confession of the Church of England established in 1563, these books were considered non-canonical. This section also includes apocrypha from the Vulgate’s appendix. (For more information, see the article on the Biblical canon.) These texts are printed separately, between the end of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament. Verses unique to the Septuagint’s version of the Book of Esther and the Book of Daniel (The Prayer of Azariah, Bel and the Dragon, Susanna) were placed here, rather than included in the texts of those books. From approximately 1827, many editions have omitted this section, and the most common contemporary editions rarely include them.

    Lastly, there are huge chunks of missing info that predate KJV that were not added back in.  For example, in Isaiah 34:14, do you think the reference is to a literal screech owl?  It isn’t.  It relates to an entire section of Genesis that is no longer present…

    I’ll let you figure out WHO the “screech owl” is…


  • Well at least my sht makes perfect sense doesn’t it!!!  Unlike you wacky christians,catholics, muslims etc. So much good there, yet so much horsesht. I have been sent to straighten you religious people out. What a job!!! If nonsense is uncovered, then you continually try to justify it. I have my job cut out for me & I love a good challenge!!!

  • 2007 AAR League

    The problem is you trust the words of man and not the things of God

    the reference to a screech owl is correct. its actually referring to a screech owl, because in that chapter its talking about the destruction of the nations. screech owls ussually make there homes in desolated and ruined lands where no other animals would make there homes.

    as to you letting me guess who the owl was you were probably referring to the Myth of Adams first wife Lilith correct? which is exactly what I have stated, a Myth.


  • Yes, and the “she” reference is irrelevant.

    If Lilith is a myth, yet refered to in other versions of the Bible, then why not just say the bible itself is a myth?


  • @Jennifer:

    I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm.  I only see two options for the after-life:

    That’s your opinion.  Mine is that you’re wrong.  This thought is also alienating for any non-Christians out there.  No way I’m spending my time in heaven with you party poopers.

    @Jennifer:

    In that regard, yes.  I have a very closed mind.  Jesus specifically said no one can approach the Father except through him.  So, to me, that means you cannot go to heaven unless you accept Jesus as savior.  But then again, as I also said, I’m not the one making the decisions.  Maybe God has different rules for different religions.

    Perhaps you should?

    @NoMercy:

    I am not forcing this upon anyone. I am stating that men choose to sin on there own free will and because of sin you cannot enter into heaven unless you are saved.

    people who are good there whole lives wont get there for being good. Life if you have realized isn’t fair, so if they knew the truth that they had to be saved and arn’t then its there own fault.

    Insisting that there is a heaven (going on nothing more than hope), and then saying “that’s the way it is,” is indeed forcing it down others’ throats.


  • @Jermofoot:

    @Jennifer:

    I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm.  I only see two options for the after-life:

    That’s your opinion.  Mine is that you’re wrong.  This thought is also alienating for any non-Christians out there.  No way I’m spending my time in heaven with you party poopers.

    regardless of how you feel personally about something - i.e. that you feel alienated by it - is sadly your problem.  If you do not feel that attempts have been made to prevent you from an eternity without God, then that is the problem of Christians around you, but if you simply don’t like the theology and feel that Christians are trying to edge you out of life because of it, then that’s too bad.  Afterall - this is a 2000 year-old message - it wasn’t generated for Jermofoot, but to give people a choice as to how they wanted to spend their life and the afterlife.

    @NoMercy:

    I am not forcing this upon anyone. I am stating that men choose to sin on there own free will and because of sin you cannot enter into heaven unless you are saved.

    people who are good there whole lives wont get there for being good. Life if you have realized isn’t fair, so if they knew the truth that they had to be saved and arn’t then its there own fault.

    Insisting that there is a heaven (going on nothing more than hope), and then saying “that’s the way it is,” is indeed forcing it down others’ throats.

    no it isn’t.  you have had nothing forced on you.  People have cared enough to tell you that this is the way through the afterlife, either take it or don’t.  As far as i can see it, revealing information to you about the end of your time would be more freeing, allowing you more options, than “forcing something down your throat”.  You don’t like the message - fine, but don’t shoot the messenger.


  • When combined with things such as Jen’s statement about government established Christian Schools, or with statements from folks like Katherine Harris last week… then YES, it IS being attempted to be “forced down our throats.”

    And the typical response from the Christian Right when anyone voices objection is “if you don;t like it, go to another country.”

    That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.


  • @ncscswitch:

    When combined with things such as Jen’s statement about government established Christian Schools, or with statements from folks like Katherine Harris last week… then YES, it IS being attempted to be “forced down our throats.”

    And the typical response from the Christian Right when anyone voices objection is “if you don;t like it, go to another country.”

    That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

    well,
    given that none of this seems to pertain to the discussion at hand, then it seems to be just irrelevant whining.  Like - in the same vein, i could whine about your pagan beliefs being forced down my throat.  They aren’t, but i really don’t see a difference.


  • @cystic:

    regardless of how you feel personally about something - i.e. that you feel alienated by it - is sadly your problem.  If you do not feel that attempts have been made to prevent you from an eternity without God, then that is the problem of Christians around you, but if you simply don’t like the theology and feel that Christians are trying to edge you out of life because of it, then that’s too bad.  Afterall - this is a 2000 year-old message - it wasn’t generated for Jermofoot, but to give people a choice as to how they wanted to spend their life and the afterlife.

    I see what you are saying - but do you think Jesus’ intent was for people to separate themselves as group from others not included?  I doubt it.  I’m fine with keeping my options open; perhaps I’ll have my own revelation and decide that God exists and is wonderful, but currently I’m disinterested.  I’m still a capable human being, and as long as I’m not impeding you from doing what you want, then we’re hunky-dorey.

    no it isn’t.  you have had nothing forced on you.  People have cared enough to tell you that this is the way through the afterlife, either take it or don’t.  As far as i can see it, revealing information to you about the end of your time would be more freeing, allowing you more options, than “forcing something down your throat”.  You don’t like the message - fine, but don’t shoot the messenger.

    In my experience - and maybe I should have not used the word “forced” - my reputation & peace of mind are in jeopardy simply because I don’t belong to a specific group.  And the more I think about it, Christianity seems more and more like any other social group: you have the “ins” and “outs,” and conciously or not, the ins push the outs away, unless they assimilate.  However, I’m not saying this is indicative of all Christians or Christianity itself, just the byproduct of humans and social organization.  Also, I’m not trying to come off as railing religion - it’s not my cup of tea, and I want people to practice what they wish.  Just recognize that not everyone is doing the same as you.

    @ncscswitch:

    That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

    Not to mention counter to what/why this country was founded in the first place.


  • CC,

    I tend not to deal with this issue in purely theoretical terms.  When I see discussions like this, when I see the blind faith, the proselytizing, the attempts to intertwine religion and government…  I see those on a real world level.

    I see the Christian Coalition and othes of their ilk trying to get not prayer, but explicitly and exclisvuely Christian Prayer in schools.
    I see the entire ID/Creationism issue as a way of getting the Book of Geneis being taught as FACT in schools.
    I see a real world push to put conservative fundamentalist Christians in public office in order to legislate THEIR views, and use the enforcement power of the Imperial Federal Government to mandate compliance under threat of fine or imprisonment.

    Just look at some of the “theoreticals” that have been posted here, and what many of these so-called Christians want to do to their fellow Americans simply because they do not follow their particular religious outlook.  Just this morning I had to delete a post that violated this forum’s policies that advocated death for a variety of non-Christian groups.

    Do we REALLY want to allow that type of behavior and outlook on life to be placed in control of our government?  To give those people the means to actually carry out their plans for “purification” of America as a Christian nation?

    I certainly do not…

  • 2007 AAR League

    you keep missing the point its there choice to choose or not,

    nobody and I mean nobody is forcing anybody to choose to believe.

    It’s wrong to do that.

    My point is to here are the facts: do you believe or not

    I’m only arguing because I will not sit idly while people are making fun of God and saying mean things about Christians.


  • @ncscswitch:

    CC,

    I tend not to deal with this issue in purely theoretical terms.  When I see discussions like this, when I see the blind faith, the proselytizing, the attempts to intertwine religion and government…  I see those on a real world level.

    you have to “forgive” the blind faith and what you refer to as proselytizing.  For many Christians, Christianity is well beyond blind faith, but is as real as the love you feel for your partner (assuming you love your partner, of course).  As for the proselytizing you will have to forgive that to a certain extent.  Afterall - it is in The Book.  Now i will grant you - there is a difference between informing people of important Truths, and being a dick about it.  You may have a different view as to where this line is drawn, but i think as one has to live with certain things in a society, you are going to have to find a ground in which you can tolerate these injustices of life, or you are going to be railling against human behaviour in all of its forms until you die, probably of a broken hip when you fall in your clonazepam-induced-fog required by the inevitable anxiety you are developing by these mercilous Christians’.

    I see the Christian Coalition and othes of their ilk trying to get not prayer, but explicitly and exclisvuely Christian Prayer in schools.

    there is going to be a pushing and pulling.  A union will request bizaare things of an employer just to find a compromise that they were actually seeking.  I read too much about Christian children being prohibited from praying in cafeterias in public schools.  As long as this is a problem, i can understand the pendulum being swung by a further margin.

    I see the entire ID/Creationism issue as a way of getting the Book of Geneis being taught as FACT in schools.

    cool.
    I went to Christian schools for most of my life, and this wasn’t being taught this way.  Still, i think that it is reasonable to teach this as a common philosophy, if not as a scientific fact (presumably you have seen my few posts on the evolution/creation debate).

    I see a real world push to put conservative fundamentalist Christians in public office in order to legislate THEIR views, and use the enforcement power of the Imperial Federal Government to mandate compliance under threat of fine or imprisonment.

    it depends on what those views are.  Whether Christian or not, i have a problem with those who seek to hand more power to gun-wielders, abortionists, executors, war-mongers, etc.  At the same time, the society of Jesus as per the Sermon on the Mount and the Acts’ church was pretty cool, and i wouldn’t have a problem with this philosophy in a government.

    Just look at some of the “theoreticals” that have been posted here, and what many of these so-called Christians want to do to their fellow Americans simply because they do not follow their particular religious outlook.  Just this morning I had to delete a post that violated this forum’s policies that advocated death for a variety of non-Christian groups.

    Now you have seen my unabashed defence of people who need defending - the unborn, Muslims, death row prisoners (i.e. w.r.t. the death penalty), so you know that i’m pretty anti-killing.  Still, just because someone claims to both be a Christian and death to homosexuals - how different is that from me proclaiming to be a switch-follower and oh-yeah - death to all law-enforcement types?  Both are equally ridiculous stances - try and separate the two.

    Do we REALLY want to allow that type of behavior and outlook on life to be placed in control of our government?  To give those people the means to actually carry out their plans for “purification” of America as a Christian nation?
    I certainly do not…

    again - baby and bathwater.  You generalize too easily here.


  • I find it funny that people are afraid of allowing children to say a prayer in school if they want to. Who cares who they pray to, or if they’re picking their nose during that moment instead of praying? It’s like bitching about what someone is saying on the radio (H.Stern) or the TV…if YOU don’t like it, just change the station (or channel). If you’re in school and have no particular interest in saying a prayer, then don’t. Read a book or trade googly-eyes with Mary Joe Rottencrotch instead. You non-believers are so hypocritica; you fight just as fervently for what YOU think is right as believers do for what they think is right….and yet, while it’s okay for YOU to do so, it isn’t okay (in your eyes) for believers to do the same.

    They say:

    “I don’t want to pray in school”.  Okay, so don’t.

    “I don’t want my kids to see other kids praying in school”  Why? Afraid they might form opinions of their own?

    And you say:

    “I find it funny when a pagan like me knows more about Christianity than half the Christians” (paraphrasing)

    And yet, I see know evidence of this as yet….just opinions. But whatever…it’s called free-will for a reason. You’re free to believe or not believe as suits you. This is also true for Christians, and yet it really seems to bother you that we feel as free to speak out on our beliefs as you non-believers do on yours. In many states, it is apparently quite legal to include religion in the curriculum, and why not? Evolution is just like religion; alot of it takes faith and great imaginative leaps to fill in the blanks and believe. You non=believers have been ramming Evolution down our throats since 1963 or so, having it all your own way. Sounds like indoctrination to me…which is exactly what you non believers are so afraid of and outspoken against when it’s religion, not evolution, under the microscope. Why should it be perfectly fine for your agenda to be allowed, but not ours? You non-believers are doing the very same thing you’re so happy to accuse Christians of: you’re beating your chests and saying “We’re right, you’re wrong”. How is what you do different from what you accuse us of doing?

    Rob.


  • Here is what is comes down to between the two schools of thought.

    1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…

    And:

    2. In the beginning, an impossibly small and impossibly dense lump of something extremely vague in nature was just sitting around in a perfect vaccuum, minding it’s own business for who knows how long (never mind where it came from), when, for some unknown reason, it suddenly exploded, and from that…dirt. ……(insert unknown and unprovable length of time here)…and from that dirt, life…over millions of unproveable years, to what we are today.

    Uh-huh. And you expect us to accept that as fact?

    Again, pretty hypocritical of you, considering that your theory (and that’s all it is) is just as goofy and imaginative as ours is.

    If you were to take a lump of every element, atom, molecule, and particle (IOW, everything in existance, which you cannot do) and place it inside of a vessel which contained a perfect vaccuum, and left it to sit, undisturbed by any outside influence for whatever length of time you choose, I guarantee that at the end of that period it would still be just as you left it. To claim otherwise defies all known logic, and as it cannot be proven otherwise, that same claim is also unscientific as you would define it. It cannot be proven. Period. Therefore, it takes faith to believe that it happened at all. This, my friend, is called a belief, not a fact. You need faith to believe you rversion of events just as we do.

    We’re not so different after all.

    Rob.


  • Now you see here we have common ground.  I fully support the right of children to pray in school.  I just do not support government employee led and directed prayer in school.

    In point of fact, several years ago I was a National Director for a religious rights organization that aided children and parents of all faiths in being able to engage in personal religious expression in schools.  Informational letters to school boards, administrators, and even the occasional Amicus brief in support of private student prayer, religious groups during after school hours, and the wearing if religious symbols (crosses, Star of David, pentacles, etc.) by students.  Our MOST COMMON incidents were students prohibited from wearing the Star of David (allegedly a gang symbol) and the wearing of a Pentacle (allegedly gang related and/or Satanic).

    As a popular catch phrase of people supporting prayer in schools goes… as long as their are tests, there will be prayer in schools.

    I fully support the rights of all people to freedom of religious expression.  But, like any other personal rights, they are restricted by the Constitution (meaning government employees while in their position of authority may not dictate religious practices to others under their authority) and by MY personal rights.  The old adage, your right to free expression ends just before your fist touches my nose.

    Lastly… yes, it DOES bother me that folks are compelled to witness their faith to me.  I belong to one of the many religions that does not proselytize.  Consequently, those same religions have don’t engage in wars of conversion either as all of the major proselytizing religions have at many, many times throughout history (when was the last time you heard of a Hindu Jihad or a Pagan Crusade?).  I also think it is hysterical that people are constantly trying to pick the splinter out of my eye while ignoring the log in theirs.

    And I don;t think Jesus went around constantly telling every soul he met about God.  He just led by example, and taught to those who ASKED to be taught.  A good example that perhaps his followers should emulate.


  • @ncscswitch:

    I fully support the rights of all people to freedom of religious expression.

    And yet, you claim exceptions. Therefore, you cannot fully support those rights of other people. “Fully” in this case would, by definition, exclude the possibilty of exceptions.

    Lastly… yes, it DOES bother me that folks are compelled to witness their faith to me.

    Then you, my friend, need some thicker skin. Or maybe some earplugs and a sign around your neck saying ‘go away, I don’t want to hear it.’ which is hypocritical in it’s own right because you fully expect everyone else to be quite alright with having your system of belief drilled into their children’s heads as if it were fact. In that sense, your pagan philosophy is being witnessed to our children every day, and to you that’s okay, as long as you have it your way.

    Or maybe you need to walk away from this thread because it must really be bothering you something fierce. I note that no one’s forcing you to read it.  :wink:

    I belong to one of the many religions that does not proselytize.

    That would be incorrect. Evolution is a pagan theory. Every time you rise up in defense of your evolution theory, you are proselytising. You are telling me that this is your belief system, and that it is right……every time you claim that your theory is fact and that ours is not, you are proselytising.

    And I don;t think Jesus went around constantly telling every soul he met about God.  He just led by example, and taught to those who ASKED to be taught.  A good example that perhaps his followers should emulate.

    Once again, you have no proof of this……it is merely what you believe, and there is nothing wrong with that. But do not claim it as fact, for that way leads to ruin. I personally believe that anyone who wishes to explain their belief system to another person should start out with “I believe”, rather than trying to throw the words “proof” and “fact” around.


  • And infact Jesus did go about telling everyone he saw about God, because he was doing his Father’s work, and if you read the Gospels you would find he is either preaching to thousands at a time, or teaching his disciples, or performing miracles in Gods name.


  • No, your right to speak does not demand that I have to listen to it.

    Also, my “Pagan Beliefs” are NOT being taught in schools.  Show me a single example of a Goddess reference that is being taught (other than Greek Mythology) in schools.

    As for my exception…

    You are missing a key distinction…
    INDIVIDUALS are free to express themselves
    GOVERNMENT AGENTS IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY are not.

    And the very conservative Supreme Court recently backed that view up.


  • OK boys and girls, Sunday school is in session. Sit up and pay attention. Todays lesson is….

    Why aren’t good people automatically given a free ride to heaven? And henceforth when I say heaven or hell, I mean here on earth. Because they haven’t accepted Jesus?? Noooooooo  Well then why?  It’s simply because many “good” people are badly flawed individuals and will suffer the consequences of that. Many “good” people have minor flaws & enjoy peace of mind due to that.

    Why doesn’t good works get you to heaven?? Because you haven’t accepted Jesus??  Nooooooo  Well then why?  Because if you are cheating, screwing people over, harming others, raping, killing unneccesarily,yet dutifully give 10% of your earnings to a worthy cause & volunteer at the soup kitchen every day, then you will recieve no peace of mind due to your cheating, screwing people over, harming others, or whatever else!

    This concludes todays lesson

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