Kill America First?



  • I don’t think it’s possible…but I’d like to hear thoughts.

    It creates more problems than it solves for the Axis, in my mind…

    Can Germany play defense against Russia and bottle up Britain at the same time, while directing an attack at America? Can Britain’s economy even be effectively lowered to permit such a tactic?

    Can Japan forgo early mainland gains in favor of an more immedeate attack on the U.S.? Can in build up the necessary income with much more conservative expansion elsewhere, or are early moves on the U.S. simply not economically viable?

    If the Allies are clearly going KGF, then I might see Japan going full bore on America…it would likely disrupt American aid to Europe, at least for a while. But beyond that, I think America is beyond the reach of the Axis…

    What do others think?



  • Aretaku,

    In a word, “suicide”…America has too much economic power for Japan to be able to directly invade.  Any roundabout route, such as Alaska or Central America, would give them too much time to prepare militarily.

    Without Japan’s invasion of Asia to deplete Russian IPC’s, England and Russia could at least hold their own against Germany.  They might even win, if England could set up a good shuck for reinforcements in Norway, Karalia, or Archangel.

    Left alone, England could set up a stable and defensable IC in India and take control the Asian east coast, threatening Japan with invasion and/or SBR losses.

    England could defend Africa with Russia’s help through Persia and TransJordan, because after a few skirmishes Germany would run short of infantry at the front, giving Russia time to build reinforcements with England’s aid.

    Not a promising outlook for the Axis powers.



  • Well the northern prong of the japan attack is normaly not that profitable so you could forgo that and go after the UK + US assets elsewhere.
    If you can somehow take afrika as germany and hold it and at the same time take all UK prosessions in the east the UK is left with 12 ipcs building strenght and is for most practical purposes out of the game once you kill of its fleet.

    Playing defensive VS russia you should take karrelia and make a front there might be possible with good reinforcements and the gains from afrika you can keep russia at bay there and still build other troops ( you should have about 20 spare once you matched USSR troop buildup.

    Getting a strong atlantic germany navy as well as pretty early attacks on both alaska and hawai to take away US money might get its attention so germany can control the atlantic.

    Although it is a longshot and pretty theoretical. The opening moves would be to combine the german fleet on Turn 2 and consolidate afrika while as japan go for india + american holdings and afterward take australia.



  • Agreed.

    The only way to attempt it is with a move like C-Sub’s Canadian Shield (the double threat of Germany and Japan hitting North America).

    But it is an ultra high risk move and easilly blocked by any number of standard/traditional Allied moves, and leaves both Axis powers wasted if it fails.



  • Wasnt even thinking of invading but setting the stage.
    If you can dominate the atlantic so they can shuttle troops you can quite effectively reduce UK to 12 ipcs a turn. ( if they dont have a fleet they are basicaly out of the game )

    When that happens and you can keep the US from attacking with a fleet or at least shuttling troops in the atlantic and also threathen them with japan you can set up a nice system. Remember US is by that time reduced to 30ipcs.
    Then you should move in not before you need your navy alive so you can keep the push up 1 round of troops is not important but 2-3 rounds of troups get really risky for the US.

    The key is not to attack them fast but to take everything but their core countries first and make them a non threath. And ensure that russia has its hands full with 3-4 points of attack from japan and 3 from germany they cant push out to liberate some zones.

    The key is afrika and the US +UK assets in asia. Once you got those you reduce their income to the point where germany can actualy push back in the atlantic with fleet while keeping russia at bay at the same time


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    Not building and concentrating on getting Japan forces to Moscow gives the UK and Russia too much time to at least contain Germany. Given enough time the Russians can defend Moscow or make its conquest very, very costly. If Japan is not pressuring Moscow and Germany is contained the US can just do its thing in the Atlantic and shuck troops to Africa and Europe via WUS, WCA, ECA.

    The US needs to establish an Atlantic transport system. As long as Russia is not hard pressed the US can divert those TRNs to Africa or Europe. The only thing that can kill the US first is incompetence on the part of the person playing them.


  • Moderator

    I think it might be possible, but I don’t think you should consider it until rd 2 or 3 at the earliest.

    I think you should do G1 and J1 normally, then see if it may be possible.  For example, if on US 1 they keep their BB at the Wus sz, or move the DD there, or buy units for the Pac I think you can write it off.

    By doing a normal G1 and J1 you are still set up to go after Mos, and more importantly Japan should still gain Chi and Sin, SFE, Bury, Yak, and probably Ind with very little cost.  (provided no KJF by the allies).
    And Germany has a chance to pick up income from Afr.

    A normal J1 and J2 still leaves Japan in positions to take Hi and Ala on J3 with bb-shots and inf from Japan/Bury.  While you should have at least 1 IC from J1 to maintain a defensive postion in Sin.  Also if things are going really well, you can nix the US idea and just continue on to Moscow instead.

    Ultimately by waiting until rd 3, you can now survey the land, making sure the US BB is in the Atlantic and will take 2 turns to get back to Wus sz or 3 if you wait until J4.  You can also see if US set it shuck-shuck through Eus or Wus.  If it is through Wus, you can write this off.

    In theory under the right conditions on say J4, Japan can drop off about 4 inf on Hi and 4 onf Ala, or better yet, 2 on W can, 6 on Ala, while they non com infantry from Bury to Sfe (instead of yak), then they could do a follow up drop off, while buying more trans and inf.  I don’t think the US will fall, but you may be able to make a play at Wus.  IMO the key would be making sure all the US power units (bb, dd’s, bom, ftrs) are all in the European theatre.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Only way would be a feint.

    Pretend to go after Russia slowely.  Don’t build ANY complexes, only transports, infantry, artillery and armor.  Get 16-24 transports, get enough ground forces to load them and dump on Alaska in one swoop.  Next round, get an IC there, put your fighters in and put out a blitz blocker.  Send trannies back to Japan.

    Reload

    Keep sending 8 units to Alaska, build two there, maybe get more ICs on Asia now to keep filling transports.

    Hope America doesn’t kill of Germany before you get established.

    Not a great idea, IMHO



  • As japan do what you normaly do ( build 4 trannies and some IC’s ), as germany go for a fleet linkup on turn 2, followed by a retreat to the med and 1-2 trannies there, for afrika invasion purposes.
    Then on turn 4 you got your fleet off the afrikan coast to prevent incursions and a fleet off japan, take alaska and if he has no Pacific strength take hawai that same turn ( you now threathen the whole eastern seaboard ).

    If he does not see it comming next stop washington with germany through the fleet located off the afrikan cost ( it is in range of both washington, london, brazil and canada take what you fancy most :D.

    If he build up heavy ground forces and you cant take the rest your hawai forces can swing by australia for a beer and some extra income.



  • That should be just enough of a breather for Russia to power up, build more INF, add a few offensive units to whatever they have saved from their opening pieces, and regain some territory and boost their income.

    When you grab a tiger by the tail, you do NOT let go.



  • @ncscswitch:

    That should be just enough of a breather for Russia to power up, build more INF, add a few offensive units to whatever they have saved from their opening pieces, and regain some territory and boost their income.

    When you grab a tiger by the tail, you do NOT let go.

    Well my global line is more in line with a traditional german build of a carrier in the baltic and then lateron 1 tranny in the med. This should give plenty of power to keep russia in WR and trade karrelia/belo/ukr with them every turn or even 1 step closer to russia itself.
    It does not give russia a lot more breathing room since with afrika ipcs germany will also have a lot more to spend.



  • You are still talking 3 turns of no Japan TRNs to Asia.  That is one round for Russia to set up to counter a Japan force, a second to destroy it, and a third to sweep through into rear areas.

    And if Russia is already set up for it when Japan tries this (say, a Novo mini-stack), then Russia can be Kwang, FIC, or Manch by the time Japan’s fleet is back to land units.



  • It depends on US moves if they build huge numbers on the pacific coast you can just move 3 trannies back to asia transport while taking the ozzies on with 1.
    So in effect it will be only 1 turn loss of units. If the US does not build force well you take the pacific coast. Ofcourse you will have some IC’s on the mainland by that time and you can buy new trannies to start chucking over to asia again.

    Turn 1 no units.
    Turn 2 either take US+ build trannies  Or trannies to asia.
    Turn 3 business as usual.
    So only 2 turns of no additional units at worst.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Problem is, if you aim to hit the United States, America’s going to see it comming.  1 Round of full infantry and suddenly you go from undefended land to 10 infantry defending it.  Or worse, 5 infantry, 3 artillery and 2 armor.



  • Well 1 thing is the US player might not see it comming with the german fleet. You are off the afrikan coast so it is a good defendable position and you dont have to go 😄

    Same for the japs if they defend and go full bore with land units on both sides go someplace else ( asia ) again.
    US just spend 1 turn of spending on stuff they cant use at that point because they need fleet where you just took 6 IPCs worth of countries that he will have a hard time rebuilding.

    Also 10 units on 1 side means no units on the other side. the us has 1 turn before germany attacks the capital and japan attacks LA.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    But America should ahve been building on the West side and walking to the East anyway.  So by round 3, the earliest it can be attacked, we’re talking 24ish infantry some artillery and tanks.

    It’s just not feasible for the axis to take out the US.  Even if Germany does kill off the American fleet, you’re still building masses of beef for the grinder with America.

    I just don’t see how you could do it without landing 12+ transports worth of units in Alaska and W Canada simultaniously and even then, you’d have to do it without America suspecting anything.  THat means trying to mass in SFE and doing a shuttle over to Alaska.


  • Moderator

    #1)  You’re right.  If US sets up it’s shuck-shuck through WUS starting on rd 1 then it is a NO GO.  that is way you should do Rd 1 and 2 normal as the Axis

    #2)  No, you can go from Bury to Ala, not SFE.

    Here are some things to consider:

    1)  Axis gets a bid (with at least 1 IPC going to Japan)
    2)  US builds in Eus on rd 1 and 2
    3)  US sends BB and DD in Pac to the Atlantic.
    4)  No Allied IC on either Sin or Ind

    Now to Japan
    Rd 1:
    Normal buy 1 IC, 2 trns (gives you 3 total trns).  Earn ~33 (up Chi, Bury - if Yak stack) 
    Note:  Nothing out of the ordinary for this buy.

    Rd 2
    Buy 1 trn, 8 inf.
    Fleets back to Sz 60 and Fic sz respectively.  You get troops to Bury and Fic via trns and place 3 at IC.  Earn ~36-39 (up Chi, Bury, SFE, Sin, possibly Ind)

    Rd 3
    Buy Inf/Arm for IC, Inf for Japan (possibly a trn if you can still get 6 inf on Japan).
    Move Fleet to Sz 60 offload about 5-6 inf to Bury(from rd 2 buy), non-Com inf to Chi/Sin and Yak.  Earn ~36-42.

    Againg there is nothing unusual about thse three turns and what you’ll end up seeing after Japan 3 is something like this: (Japan Troops only)

    Sin: 1 inf
    Chi: 4-8 inf
    Fic:  IC, 3 inf, 5-6 ftrs, 1 bom
    Kwa, Man: mt
    Bury:  5-6 inf
    Yak: 2-4 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm
    Ind: 1 inf
    Japan: 6-8 inf
    Sz 60:  1 dd, 4-5 trns, 2 bb, 2 ac

    Now you can even keep the up the illusion by having a trn, ac, bb off the coast of Fic, again assuming US left for the Atlantic.

    So Fic Sz: 1 trn, 1 bb, 1 ac
    Jap sz:  3-4 trns, 1 dd, 1 bb, 1 ac

    You can also back out and contiue pressing on Moscow f you think you are being successful or just get squimish.  Maybe Ger is doing really well.

    But now you come to Japan 4 this is where you commit to the US move.

    Rd 4
    Buy trn (possibly IC or both) and inf.  Make sure you have enough inf to cover your IC (3) and your new trn (2) and 1 trn you left behind (2).  ~7 inf total.

    Now you Combat Move 2 inf to W can (if open), and 4 inf to Ala.  Move rest of your fleet to Japan (if at Fic), or entire fleet to Ala sz.
    Now You non Com 4 inf to SFe from Bury, others go to secure Yak, you fortify Sin (don’t move to Kaz or Novo no matter how tempting), and fortify Fic (or Ind).

    Rd 5
    Buy trn and inf.
    You can still get 6 inf to Ala while you should end up having 6 inf 3 trns in Jap sz for rd 6.
    Move Asia inf to Sin and Yak again, keeping e/n/k deadzone-ish.

    This is very possible and does not require millions of trans or a vastly different game plan then the typical normal crush moscow of rds 1 to 3.

    Now IT DOES REQUIRE several assumptions about Allied play.  Namely the US vacating the Pac and NOT setting up shuck-shuck through WUS.

    Will the strategy work in the end, I don’t know, but it is possible given the right circumstances and DOES NOT hurt the early push to Mos.

    All this being said, this is why I always try to start my shuck-shuck through WUS (this goes back to classic as well).  I simply don’t want to have to worry about a Japanese player trying to mess up my European landings mid game so I just plan from the start to take that out of the equation.

    But I think there is generally enough sloppy Allied play to where you could probably catch a few players napping on the West Coast of the US and while you won’t take WUS, you can certainly disrupt them for 2-3 turns and give Germany some mid-game breathing room, and it won’t cost Japan much at all in Asia with well placed/timed IC’s and trn buys.



  • In general, it is a bad idea for the US to both abandon the Pacific AND not set up their shuck from WUS.


  • Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    In general, it is a bad idea for the US to both abandon the Pacific AND not set up their shuck from WUS.

    Yes.  VERY bad.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    AND not set up their shuck from WUS.

    what does these mean, is it a phrasis?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    WUS: Western United States.

    And it’s bad, but not untennable.  As I said, you could land in Alaska/W. Canada, but the US can just make a ton of units and drive you off.  No way you can set up a sustainable invasion against a determined and unthreatened (unthreatened by Germany) American.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Pardon my ignorance, what is a shuck-shuck?



  • Sending forces to Europe via a continuous stream from North America… landings in force every turn.



  • From what I hear shuck shuck is what you say when you transport American infantry from shore to shore. A classic player, Don, who wrote a bunch of essays on how to play, calls it the sound of doom =P


  • 2007 AAR League

    yea if this happens usa is a continuois supporter in europe nd its hard for germany to win if they haven’t taken moscow bc US keeps coming  😞


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