L22 elche (x) vs Gamerman01 (+18) BM4

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    @elche said in L22 elche (x) vs Gamerman01 (+18) BM4:

    My move with Japan was against the rules.
    This is from the game notes: (PE) You may not attack a territory containing units owned by a nation that you are not at war with (even if the territory is owned by someone you are at war with).
    If okay I edit it back and send you a new file.

    No, you’re fine. That means land territory. You can attack sea zones and engage only the units of the powers you are at war with. You did it perfectly. You also stayed more than 2 sea zones away from USA and Alaska. Everything was legal. Thanks for being forthright, though, I appreciate the good sportsmanship.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    Here is US/China/UK3 - please don’t miss my answers to your statements and questions below.

    UK3.tsvg


  • Thanks for your statement. I think there is something wrong.
    If I play Local Game and move with J in R3 like in our game, USA can attack in R3. The same in my other game.
    here is rule send to me by aagamerz:
    The United States may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis power either declares war on it first or captures London or any territory in North America, or Japan makes an unprovoked declaration of war against the UK or ANZAC, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers on its following turn. However, if it’s not yet at war by the Collect Income phase of its third turn, the United States may declare war on any or all Axis powers at the beginning of that phase. This is an exception to the rules for declaring war, which may normally be done only at the beginning of the Combat Move phase.


  • So you must have possibilty to attack me in R3 with USA. If we go on its mayby against the rules and an not legal advantage for me. Sorry for that chaos. I tried in 3 games now and everytime USA can attack in R3.


  • here is the file from other game in same situation. If you go on with USA, you can attack in R3.
    jap3 (2).tsvg


  • I tried our game as local game. The machine gives me the possibility to attack in R3. Mayby there is really a bug in the game.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    You have the right rules and you properly understand them, yes.

    I followed the rules and did not conduct combat with USA and I also did not non-com into any prohibited areas.

    I didn’t declare war with USA Round 3 because it’s not allowed.
    The UK transport off EUS was not able to use the naval base, either.

    I did not break the rules, I did not declare war on any Axis power, so I received no advantage.

    Did you see both of my posts before I posted the UK file?


  • Yes I read all posts. You break no rules and you get no advantage but me. I understand that my move with Japan was okay but I am not sure about the rule I send you. If I declare war to brit/Anzac in R3 USA can although declare war all Axis Power in R3 ? Mayby therefore you never saw this move because makes no sense if USA can attack.
    But you have much more expierence with the game and so I have no problem to believe you and go on with the game.


  • Game History

    Round: 3
    
        Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 carrier, 1 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 
    
        Combat Move - Italians
            1 infantry moved from Southern Italy to 97 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from Tunisia to 94 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 94 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tunisia to Morocco
                  Italians take Algeria from French
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 92 Sea Zone to Morocco
            1 cruiser moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Greece to Novgorod
            1 armour moved from Eastern Poland to Belarus
                  Italians take Belarus from Russians
            1 armour moved from Belarus to Novgorod
    
        Combat - Italians
            Battle in Novgorod
                Italians attack with 1 armour and 1 bomber
                Russians defend with 1 airfield, 1 factory_minor, 2 fighters, 1 harbour, 4 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                    Italians roll dice for 1 armour and 1 bomber in Novgorod, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 1,17 expected hits
                    Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 4 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Novgorod, round 2 : 3/7 hits, 3,17 expected hits
                    1 bomber owned by the Italians and 1 armour owned by the Italians lost in Novgorod
                Russians win with 2 fighters, 4 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is -20
                Casualties for Italians: 1 armour and 1 bomber
            Battle in Morocco
                Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                British defend with 1 fighter; French defend with 3 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 1 cruiser in Morocco, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,50 expected hits
                    Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Morocco, round 2 : 0/4 hits, 1,33 expected hits
                    French roll dice for 1 fighter and 3 infantry in Morocco, round 2 : 3/4 hits, 1,67 expected hits
                    1 mech_infantry owned by the Italians, 1 infantry owned by the French, 1 artillery owned by the Italians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Morocco
                1 armour owned by the Italians retreated to Algeria
                French win with 1 fighter and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -8
                Casualties for Italians: 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
    
        Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
            1 submarine moved from 97 Sea Zone to 95 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Romania to Bessarabia
            1 artillery moved from Romania to Bessarabia
            1 artillery moved from Bulgaria to Greece
            1 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Albania
    
        Place Units - Italians
            1 carrier and 1 transport placed in 95 Sea Zone
            1 infantry placed in Southern Italy
    
        Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 15 PUs; end with 15 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 20 PUs
            Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 25 PUs
    

    Combat Hit Differential Summary :

    French regular : 1,33
    Italians regular : -2,00
    Russians regular : -0,17
    

    ita3 (3).tsvg

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    @elche said in L22 elche (x) vs Gamerman01 (+18) BM4:

    Yes I read all posts. You break no rules and you get no advantage but me. I understand that my move with Japan was okay but I am not sure about the rule I send you. If I declare war to brit/Anzac in R3 USA can although declare war all Axis Power in R3 ? Mayby therefore you never saw this move because makes no sense if USA can attack.
    But you have much more expierence with the game and so I have no problem to believe you and go on with the game.

    Thanks for letting me know you did see the post!
    I’ll try to make this as clear as possible so you are not confused.
    YES Japan can declare war on UK/ANZAC round 3 and keep USA from doing anything on round 3, which is exactly what you did.

    I haven’t seen this attack much because I think many players want to take the Philippines before J4 and use its bases and deny USA 7 IPC’s.

    But there are several advantages to J3 DOW on UK but not USA and that’s what you did - good job. You denied USA several opportunities while attacking UK/ANZ holdings. And many players will probably not anticipate it which may give you more opportunities, like how I split the UK and ANZAC ships. About the only drawback to Japan is the Philippines and Guam can’t be attacked on J3.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator


  • Thank you, I understand all and accept it. But for me is this a new rule and I will use it now. I think is good for the game this rule. Many other players like me didnt know or didnt use it. And the machine accept the US attack in R3. After 20 games you the first player use this rule. I remember games we played although with the US attack in R3 for the league.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    Interesting!
    I’m a little confused because I thought you made this J3 move knowing the USA could do nothing in response.
    And you are saying in many other games players have declared war with USA on round 3 and were able to move as if at war, even though that’s against the rules? Because Triple A allowed it?
    I’m the first player to follow the rule? I’m just really surprised!

    Yes, USA cannot go to war until the END of its round 3 unless any Axis power has declared war on USA. USA gets the big money at the end of round 3, but still has to build on minor complexes at the end of round 3 (limit 3 each)


  • I hoped so but I was not sure because first time I did the move and I just read once the notes and learn the rest in the games… But if you attack me I can only loose ac with fig and will cost you although units and I can attack again from sz6. Not so bad if you attack. Therefore I wrote the advantage for me that you didnt attack with USA and I looked for my old games and there are some without the rule.
    If i played the Allies instead of you I had declare war because I did not know that it is not allowed. And yes, you are first player use this rule, in my games and doing politics against the machine I think. But I am new with the game and maybe complete wrong. So i am surprised too. But the rule is good for the game.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    You also kept USA frozen in the Atlantic, and the 2 planes from the carrier could not go to London. And more.

    Again, USA cannot be at war until the very end of USA3 (to collect the NO’s) unless one of the Axis powers declares war on the USA. So you played it right.

    Not only can you hit the UK/ANZAC boats on J3, you also keep the USA from moving like she’s at war, and USA can only build 3 units per complex on USA3.


  • I hoped it too because makes no scense if Japan declares no war to USA but USA can declare war at the beginning of R3.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    Oh whoops. I forgot something. Triple A is right. I was looking at Europe only rules, not the combined world rules.

    USA can declare war on any or all Axis powers if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK/ANZAC, which is what you did.

    You can only keep USA out of the war and attack UK/ANZAC if UK/ANZAC provokes Japan by declaring war on Japan.

    I’ve been speaking wrong this whole time - I am too rusty. Let’s not go back to USA3, we can leave it as I played it. USA could have gone to war at beginning of USA3 because Japan attacked UK/ANZAC without being provoked (UK/ANZAC never declared war on Japan) but I am willing to let it stand, especially because I didn’t catch it. I even thought Triple A was wrong. Embarrassing.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    Page 37 of the Europe rulebook:

    “The United States may not declare war on any Axis power
    unless an Axis power either declares war on it first or captures London or any territory in North America, or Japan
    makes an unprovoked declaration of war against the UK or ANZAC, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis
    powers on its following turn.”

    Your move still allowed you to single out and attack UK and ANZAC ships and the USA could not defend with them.
    This is why I rarely see a J DOW on UK/ANZ and not the USA - because you can’t attack the Philipines or Guam or any other USA territory or unit, and the only advantage it gives you is that you can pick off ANZ and UK ships that would otherwise be protected by USA ships and planes, which is what you did.

    Again, I’d rather not go back especially because of your lousy Italy dice, so game on with G4

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    And thanks for thoroughly discussing this with me. Maybe I won’t get confused about this rule for awhile.


  • No problem. if you want you can start with USA R3 again. Better to destroy my ac and fig and attack Germany one round earlier. The Italian bomber is not really important.


  • If Italian bomber and tank have at least 1 hit, there was good possibility to destroy russian fighters and make Novgorod free.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    @elche said in L22 elche (x) vs Gamerman01 (+18) BM4:

    If Italian bomber and tank have at least 1 hit, there was good possibility to destroy russian fighters and make Novgorod free.

    That’s one of the reasons I won’t ask for a re-do. That and I should have known the rules, but thanks for your sportsmanship. I’ll let the Japs get away.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    I may have caused a problem going local - it looks like the password and our e-mail addresses, etc are missing. I can just re-do the FRANZAC turn and post again

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator


  • Thats good. Than we have a fair game. Okay my italian Bomber is still alive but normally he will be destroyed in the next rounds and italians never buy it back.

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