L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43)

  • 2022

    The transports are not doing anything. The land units are. The rulebook does not say they cannot load in noncombat. It says they cannot “ move and load”. So are we playing by the rulebook or what you think it SHOULD be? And by the way there is no way it’s in any way logical to not allow Japan in this case not to load in a sea zone it controls completely in EITHER phase

  • 2022

    So either way by the spirit of the law or the letter of the law the transports can load

  • 2022

    @gamerman01 said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    Page 13-14 Europe second ed. manual:

    Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones
    At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, you might
    already have sea units (and air units on carriers) in spaces
    containing enemy units that were there at the start of
    your turn. For example, an enemy might have built new
    surface warships in a sea zone where you have sea units.
    When your turn comes around again, you are sharing that
    sea zone with enemy forces.
    14
    Sea Movement Example: Sea units other than
    submarines must end their movement when they enter
    a hostile sea zone. The destroyer must stop in this zone.
    However, the submarine can pass through safely because
    the enemy unit isn’t a destroyer.
    Amphibious Assault Example: Amphibious assault
    movement occurs during the Combat Move phase. In
    this example, the U.S. battleship must destroy the enemy
    destroyer in the sea combat in order to clear the hostile
    sea zone so that the transport can offload into Normandy/
    Bordeaux. If there had been only defending submarines
    and/or transports, the attacking U.S. player could have
    ignored those units, or could have conducted sea combat.
    If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not
    submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with
    which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one
    of the following:
    • Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
    •ve the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct
    combat elsewhere,
    • Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same
    sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while
    in a hostile sea zone), or
    • Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.

    Page 22, Europe Manual 2nd edition:
    Phase 4: Noncombat Move
    In this phase, you can move any of your units that didn’t move in the Combat Move phase or participate in combat
    during your turn.

    You can’t load units from Japan with the transports in zone 6 because according to the bullet points, your transports have to do a combat move, either to escape the zone, to get out of the zone to avoid combat, to stay in the zone for combat, or to leave the zone, pick up ground units, and conduct amphibious assault in the combat movement phase, which could include back in zone 6.
    The noncombat rule from page 22 says if a unit participated in combat (which is necessarily true whether you moved your transports during combat move or not, because only aircraft can move in both the combat and combat movement phases) then it can’t move

    Page 22:
    “Transports can move to friendly coastal territories
    and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved,
    offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat
    Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

    Your transports must necessarily move during the combat movement phase, whether staying in the zone to conduct combat or to move away, so they can’t move in the noncombat phase. Moving doesn’t just mean to another zone, it means it can’t move to shore to load units either.

    And in case there’s still a doubt:
    Page 14:
    “Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in
    combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat
    Move phase of the turn.”

    You can’t participate in the noncombat phase of the turn, which would certainly include loading or unloading transports. They can’t do anything after conducting combat, same as anything else except aircraft.

    There are the two that are happening:
    Step 1:
    Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat

    Step 2:

    Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in

    combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat
    Move phase of the turn."

    In axis and Allie’s a “movement” is from one territory or sea zone to another. There are no rules or even a definition of movement WITHIN a territory or sea zone. So by rule the transport is NOT moving in noncombat so this rule you quotes does not apply in this case

  • 2022

    The transports are not “moving or participating in noncombat” the same way you can load units on a foreign powers transports and it is not even their turn to move or have a noncombat phase!


  • The tr’s doesn’t move (unless you move them i e to z20 in order to load units from Kwangtung the next turn), but they do participate in combat if they stay. I think there’s no question about that.

  • 2022

    I said they aren’t participating in NON combat just as if they were a foreign power transports which I think we have all loaded onto and it’s not even their turn

  • 2022

    @trulpen and we load onto foreign transports when it’s the land units turn. The move is the land units move not the transports. There are certain situations where they cannot be loaded onto and they are all specifically delineated and this is not one of them

  • 2022

    So unless someone can point to the spot in the rulebook where loading is not allowed in this case and so far no one has then I will load the units


  • I don’t think foreign transports are relevant here. They are a special case though. Loading and unloading is mainly an action by tr.

    It has been thoroughly pointed out, even though you choose to reject the input. The rules are clear.

  • 2022

    Opinions have been stated but rules have not been pointed out to support your point of view. So I will be following the rules not anyones opinion of what they should say or what you want them to say but did not say even though that would be completely illogical

  • 2022

    Foreign transport loading is very relevant here because it proves what the rules already state by disallowing “movement” but NOT loading during noncombat. Namely that the movement of loading is a movement by the land units and not the transport

  • 2022

    @trulpen said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    I don’t think foreign transports are relevant here. They are a special case though. Loading and unloading is mainly an action by tr.

    It has been thoroughly pointed out, even though you choose to reject the input. The rules are clear.

    This is your opinion which you got some of your buddies to sign off on but I have not seen it yet in the rules and try as you might none of you have either. If you can point it out I will happily move on and quit this game because it would make the whole game kind of silly.

  • 2022

    I’m any case if that were the case they would be done on the transports move in the case of multinational forces and not on the land units turn


  • Do you want to concede?

    The rules are clear. You can’t load units onto those tr’s this turn.

  • 2022

    I guess you aren’t reading my messages because if you were and you could comprehend and understand logic which I assume you can because you are quite good at this game you wouldn’t have posted that. So you just want to win regardless if it’s by the rules or not?

  • 2022

    And no the rules are not what you and your buddies say they are it’s what the rulebook says they are


  • Quite the opposite. You are the one stubbornly holding on to your view.

    As you can see earlier, I kept an open mind when putting this issue forth.

    I checked the rules, made the interpretation and presented it.

    I’ve definitely read your arguments, but they don’t hold. I’m not saying that to be an asshole, but that’s just how it is.

    The rules are so clear on this. If the tr’s have taken part in battle or moved during CM, they can’t do anything else during NCM.

    If you take a step back and reflect upon it, you will see that it’s the case.


  • They’re not my buddies. That you claim such only tells that you feel you need them to be biased and thus wrong in order for you to win the argument. There’s no need for that.

  • 2022

    They are Not doing anything the land units are loading on to them just as they can load onto an allied transport even though it’s not their turn either. Are you contending that Allied transports take part in noncombat phase even though it’s not their turn? Clearly that is a huge stretch. Clearly the transports cannot MOVE in noncombat. ( which is clearly stated multiple places in the rules). But nowhere does it say you cannot load units in noncombat in this situation. Maybe you assumed it but it is not stated in the rules. Nothing in the rulebook supports your point of view and several support mine. If I was wrong I would take this as a lesson and move on. I don’t just concede the point when I know I am right though. Never have never will.


  • @jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    But nowhere does it say you cannot load units in noncombat

    But, oh, it does. It’s been pointed out to you. Blame the maker of the game for lacking logic, but the rules are what they are.

    This is a semi-final in the OOB playoffs. Despite that, I was considering allowing you to load 6 units to 3 of the tr’s during the previous turn. Felt bad about the overlook. Something I wasn’t really aware about myself before we looked into it.

    This would upset my setup, so I would have to redo some of the US NCMs. At this point I’m not so sure I want to allow that. Not for winning no matter what, but because of the testy climate.

    The attack on Korea will in any case be prolonged one turn.

    You will be able to load a max of 8 units from Kwangtung (6 inf, 2 tr) and 1 inf from Guam. That will likely be enough to crush Korea. So then why so stubborn about being able to load from Tokyo?


  • 2022

    I apologize I got emotional and said something I shouldn’t have I just know I’m right and felt like you guys are ganging up on me because I’m the new guy. Here are all the cases where loading transports is disallowed. Let me know if you see this situation there.

    “During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is still friendly.

    Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile sea zone),

    Transporting Multinational Forces: Transports belonging to a friendly power can load and offload your land units, as long as both powers are at war. This is a three-step process:

    1. You load your land units aboard the friendly transport on your turn.
    2. The transport’s controller moves it (or not) on that player’s turn.
    3. You offload your land units on your next turn.

    Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

    So that is literally everything in the rulebook pertaining to loading transports. None of them disallow it in this situation. In fact In case of multinational it’s almost an identical situation . The last bullet is closest to disallowing it but if you read it carefully you can see it is referring to moving the transport to another sea zone which is clearly not possible as the transport participated in combat phase. But since it was not loaded or unloaded in combat move or in combat it can still load so long as it doesn’t move. And again the reason I know that (other than the multinational example which pretty much makes it clear that loading a transport is a move by the land unit and the transport moving between sea zones is a move by the transport) is that it specifically says moving to a “coastal friendly territory” and also it uses the word “and” instead of “or”.


  • The turn when entering into war is not applicable and neither is the multinational force, since it’s a uninational force at hand.

    The last one is relevant and the one that’s been referred to earlier.

    “Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

    I see your point about the “can move”, but as I see it it’s rather that the “and” means either or. If they “loaded, moved, offload, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase” they will neither be able to move nor load or unload during NCM.


  • @jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    I apologize I got emotional and said something I shouldn’t have I just know I’m right and felt like you guys are ganging up on me because I’m the new guy.

    Apology accepted. I hope we get past this and keep up a good spirit. No one is ganging up on you, although I understand that you feel that way.

  • 2022

    @trulpen but it doesn’t say “either or”. Those are your words. It uses the word “and”. And also the fact it specifically refers to moving to a “friendly coastal territory” means it is referring to one continuous action. Moving to a friendly coastal territory AND loading or offloading. Other wise why would it have to be a friendly coastal territory. It could simply say “moving OR offloading”. It’s referring specifically to ther combined action. So it’s saying moving to a friendly coastal territory to load/offload but by not disallowing staying out and loading/offloading it is implying it is legal because by default “ A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.” After dd is cleared the sea zone is obviously friendly at that point. The transport is not participating or moving in this phase only the land units are.

    But let’s step back and think also what is logical here. Should an island nation like Japan be held back completely by one destroyer? Despite having 50 times the force in the region it can never move any material from its homeland to other theaters of war? Clearly this is not what the game makers intended. In such cases unless the letter of the law is VERY clear to the contrary then we should err on the side of spirit of the law. And if anything the letter of the law is on the other side. The fact a few people here are considering transport to be “moving” in the noncombat phase when it is in fact not moving ( as made very clear in multinational force case) means it’s perhaps our internal bias that the transport is making a move but it’s not in the rules as stated.

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