L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43)

  • 2022

    From my reading of the rules I can leave transports in the sz and they cannot move in noncombat but land units can board them in noncombat do you agree?

  • 2022

    "If a transport encounters hostile surface warships (not enemy submarines and/or transports) AFTER it begins to move (not counting the sea zone it started in), its movement for that turn ends, and it must stop there and conduct sea combat.

    A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in."

    From my reading after the battle is concluded (assuming side with transport wins sea battle) the sea zone is no longer hostile and it can load units

  • 2022

    Game History

    Round: 6
    
        Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 infantry and 2 submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 
    
        Combat Move - Italians
            1 mech_infantry moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia
                  Italians take Northwest Persia from British
    
        Combat - Italians
    
        Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 mech_infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Bessarabia
            1 mech_infantry moved from Southern Italy to Yugoslavia
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern Italy
    
        Place Units - Italians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from 97 Sea Zone: 2 destroyers
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to 93 Sea Zone: 2 destroyers
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            1 infantry placed in Southern Italy
            1 submarine placed in 95 Sea Zone
            1 submarine placed in 97 Sea Zone
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Changing ownership of Algeria from French to Italians
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Tunisia: 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Algeria: 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
    
        Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 20 PUs; end with 20 PUs
            Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 22 PUs
    

    Combat Hit Differential Summary :

  • 2022


  • @jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    From my reading of the rules I can leave transports in the sz and they cannot move in noncombat but land units can board them in noncombat do you agree?

    Unfortunately not, since they would have been part of the combat. Same thing if they leave during CM and load units, those units have to be part of an amphi during the combat phase.


  • @trulpen said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    From the G40-EU rules, p 22 (NCM):

    Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.


  • I know, this kind of screws over Japan pretty hard. All for just a small boat.


  • 2022

    @trulpen I read through the rules a few times and don’t see that anywhere

  • 2022

    It only says they cannot move afterwards to load units. Presumably to avoid ridiculous situations like you propose where Japan cannot use her own home sea zone even though she in complete control of it


  • @jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

    @trulpen I read through the rules a few times and don’t see that anywhere

    It’s on page 22, in the Non-Combat Moves segment.

  • 2022

    It’s already kind of silly I can’t load in combat phase to not be able to load from home island in any phase even while in possession of the sea zone and enemy boats are clear would be really ridiculous and pretty much make the map unplayable


  • I didn’t think of all these consequences when I built the des, but primarily wanted to prevent an amphi on Korea.

  • 2022

    Are you referring to this?

    “Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

    It only says The transports cannot MOVE to a friendly coastal territory to load. But the transport is not moving it is the land units that are moving onto the transport and they are not restricted by being in combat because they were not.

    If there is a rule against loading in noncombat I don’t see it in the rule book

  • 2022

    It is the moving part that is the problem. If it was the loading part it would not have specified the move to a “friendly coastal territory “. It would have just said cannot load.


  • Not quite. It does say move, but it also says “and load or offload cargo”. If the trannies partake in combat, they cannot use any action during NCM. That’s how I interpret it anyway.

  • 2022

    @trulpen to me the way it reads that part is in connection to the moving part. If not it wouldn’t specify a friendly coastal territory. (obviously it would have to be a move to a friendly coastal territory to load or unload in nc). Also it would not say “and”. It would say it “can move…” ( to any sz not just a friendly coastal one) “…or load unless…”


  • How do you mean? This can’t be dubious: “unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat”.

  • 2022

    That refers to moving in noncombat. The transport won’t be moving


  • Like it says in the text it’s with the involvment in battle in the same way that you can’t load and unload units during NCM if you loaded and/or unloaded during CM.

    Well, seems we might have to call in the big guns in order to resolve this. Mind that I’m not trying to tweak the rules to my advantage in any way, but they are what they are.

    @gamerman01
    @Adam514
    @axis-dominion

  • '19 '17

    @trulpen If a transport does anything (ignoring a sub doesn’t count as something) during the CM, including just moving a sea zone or participating in battle, it cannot do anything else during the NCM phase. That means it cannot move, load units or unload units in the NCM phase.

  • 2022

    I appreciate everyone probably has an opinion on this and perhaps people have used this move in the past in their own game to some advantage. But it says in the rules you cannot “move AND unload” during noncombat if involved in a battle. The key part of noncombat move is the MOVING part. The land units were not involved in any combat so they can move into the transport. At least that’s the way the rules read and also what is logical. It would be completely illogical for Japan not to be able to use its home sea zone in either phase because a destroyer suicides there every move. So I assume we are playing by the rules in the rulebook. And the loading part is explicitly tied to the movement part in the text. Otherwise it would not specify a “ friendly coastal territory “ and it would not use the word “and”. So honestly don’t care what anytime thinks no matter how good they are at this game if it does not say it in the rule book it doesn’t matter. This isn’t some kind of situation where “let me ask my friend what he thinks he will back me up so I can win this game “. We are playing by the rulebook


  • We should play by the rulebook. Definitely. So how to interpret those rules is the task at hand we need to discern.

    Can unfortunately not say that @Adam514 is my friend. We havent’t even played a single game with eachother. I do however know him to be one of the best and most experienced players in the league. I tagged @gamerman01 as he’s the administrator and moderator of the league. The other two simply because they rock. I wouldn’t expect any biased opinion from any of them.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    Page 13-14 Europe second ed. manual:

    Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones
    At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, you might
    already have sea units (and air units on carriers) in spaces
    containing enemy units that were there at the start of
    your turn. For example, an enemy might have built new
    surface warships in a sea zone where you have sea units.
    When your turn comes around again, you are sharing that
    sea zone with enemy forces.
    14
    Sea Movement Example: Sea units other than
    submarines must end their movement when they enter
    a hostile sea zone. The destroyer must stop in this zone.
    However, the submarine can pass through safely because
    the enemy unit isn’t a destroyer.
    Amphibious Assault Example: Amphibious assault
    movement occurs during the Combat Move phase. In
    this example, the U.S. battleship must destroy the enemy
    destroyer in the sea combat in order to clear the hostile
    sea zone so that the transport can offload into Normandy/
    Bordeaux. If there had been only defending submarines
    and/or transports, the attacking U.S. player could have
    ignored those units, or could have conducted sea combat.
    If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not
    submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with
    which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one
    of the following:
    • Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
    • Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct
    combat elsewhere,
    • Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same
    sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while
    in a hostile sea zone), or
    • Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.

    Page 22, Europe Manual 2nd edition:
    Phase 4: Noncombat Move
    In this phase, you can move any of your units that didn’t move in the Combat Move phase or participate in combat
    during your turn.

    You can’t load units from Japan with the transports in zone 6 because according to the bullet points, your transports have to do a combat move, either to escape the zone, to get out of the zone to avoid combat, to stay in the zone for combat, or to leave the zone, pick up ground units, and conduct amphibious assault in the combat movement phase, which could include back in zone 6.
    The noncombat rule from page 22 says if a unit participated in combat (which is necessarily true whether you moved your transports during combat move or not, because only aircraft can move in both the combat and combat movement phases) then it can’t move

    Page 22:
    “Transports can move to friendly coastal territories
    and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved,
    offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat
    Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

    Your transports must necessarily move during the combat movement phase, whether staying in the zone to conduct combat or to move away, so they can’t move in the noncombat phase. Moving doesn’t just mean to another zone, it means it can’t move to shore to load units either.

    And in case there’s still a doubt:
    Page 14:
    “Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in
    combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat
    Move phase of the turn.”

    You can’t participate in the noncombat phase of the turn, which would certainly include loading or unloading transports. They can’t do anything after conducting combat, same as anything else except aircraft.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    So it sucks for you right now, but Adam and trulpen are correct about the rules.

    It’s also unrealistic that you can block a massive fleet from advancing with a single destroyer, as we all know you can, but it’s fine when everyone knows and understands that rule.

    The destroyer rule is often used as a sneaky tactic in other popular places and players are caught completely off guard. Because they’re not nearly as obvious as a destroyer block. For example, UK moving a destroyer into Japan’s zone 36 when Japan has several empty transports that the Axis player is planning to take several islands with when declaring war. UK doesn’t declare war so that it is legal. Then ANZAC declares war and when it comes to Japan’s turn, she can’t load a dang thing from Kwangsi or FIC.
    Another is Axis building a destroyer from Normandy into 110.
    At the least, you can learn from this bad experience and hopefully never suffer again, but possibly use to your advantage in the future. Even players who know the rule can be caught off guard because it can be unexpected.

    In your situation you could have avoided it by loading ground units from Japan to the transports on J6. I realize you placed a couple which of course would necessarily be empty at the beginning of J7, but as you can see, knowing the rule you can partially or fully mitigate the effects, if you see it coming. Much like other things in A&A, if you don’t notice something your opponent can do, you often get punished.

    You could ask trulpen to allow you to load units onto three transports in non-com J6, but of course he has every right to deny it. Like he said, he was just thinking about stopping bombardment and maybe he doesn’t want to win over this, but it’s all his prerogative, of course.

    Happy gaming,
    Gamerman01

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