@Daaras Scramble decisions?
L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43)
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@trulpen but it doesn’t say “either or”. Those are your words. It uses the word “and”. And also the fact it specifically refers to moving to a “friendly coastal territory” means it is referring to one continuous action. Moving to a friendly coastal territory AND loading or offloading. Other wise why would it have to be a friendly coastal territory. It could simply say “moving OR offloading”. It’s referring specifically to ther combined action. So it’s saying moving to a friendly coastal territory to load/offload but by not disallowing staying out and loading/offloading it is implying it is legal because by default “ A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.” After dd is cleared the sea zone is obviously friendly at that point. The transport is not participating or moving in this phase only the land units are.
But let’s step back and think also what is logical here. Should an island nation like Japan be held back completely by one destroyer? Despite having 50 times the force in the region it can never move any material from its homeland to other theaters of war? Clearly this is not what the game makers intended. In such cases unless the letter of the law is VERY clear to the contrary then we should err on the side of spirit of the law. And if anything the letter of the law is on the other side. The fact a few people here are considering transport to be “moving” in the noncombat phase when it is in fact not moving ( as made very clear in multinational force case) means it’s perhaps our internal bias that the transport is making a move but it’s not in the rules as stated.
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jkeller, you can take this straight to the maker of the rulebook if you like. His name is Krieghund and he frequents the FAQ thread. It is he who explained to me when I recently had the question as to why you can’t load an allied unit onto a transport and simultaneously unload a unit previously loaded onto that allied transport. Part of his answer involved the transport “moving” within the sea zone!
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/18412/global-2nd-edition-q-a-aag40-2/13?_=1657085359270 Back up to the June 17 posts.
But regardless, as I quoted the rulebook before, it’s this simple: “once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the noncombat move phase of the turn.” I’m quite sure this means the transports that have been involved in combat cannot load, because that is participating.
Again, I invite you to ask Krieghund on the thread linked above - there is none higher than him on the rules. He wrote the book and he is brilliant.
I am the league moderator and have been for years, and am respected for being objective and have never even been accused of taking a side. I am not offended, I just want to echo trulpen that you are not being ganged up on - also that Adam and trulpen don’t know each other - I mean, I trust Adam to be objective as well. We three agree on the conclusion on this matter because we are all playing according to the golden rule that once a unit has moved or been involved in the combat phase, it can’t do anything at all in the noncombat phase with the exception of planes. I didn’t see you respond to these points I made.
I certainly don’t want to make a final ruling on a rule in a league game unless I’m 100% sure, and sometimes Krieghund’s interpretation of the rules surprise me, I admit, so please summarize your question to Krieghund in the FAQ and don’t bother with all your reasonings or what trulpen or you or I think. Just ask him the question and he will give you the certain answer. I expect he’ll quote the same rule sections I already have.
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Or if you like, I will ask the question in the FAQ, just let me know.
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Oh, and also, I pointed out that this is no different than a single destroyer blocking a massive fleet from moving through, or even a single infantry blocking 1,000 tanks. That’s Axis and Allies and always has been.
The way the 1940 rules are written, a single destroyer built into your zone prevents your transports in that zone from non-comming. You’ve now heard from 3 of the top players in the league, but I understand if you’re new, certainly, ask the writer of the rulebook as I said. No disrespect meant.
I also tried hard to dull the sting by suggesting that trulpen allow you to load up 6 units on 3 transports (because you built 2 more, so limited to 3), but I can’t require him to do that because he’s done nothing wrong. It sounds like he’s considering allowing that although he does not have to, which shows his sportsmanship.
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Well even though it makes no sense and the wording does not indicate that loading is not allowed he did as you say quote the same section as you. Very disappointing to be honest I would rather take the loss on this game and have them interpret that rule differently because it really diminishes the realism of this version of the game unnecessarily in my opinion. But like good lawyers we have to use the rulebook to our advantage whenever possible to be the best players we can be whether the rule makes sense or not so there is no shame in that! This is a game after all! Unfortunately for me from reading the rule it was not at all clear to me that was the rule in fact I still believe the way it was written it implied moving for the purpose of loading was disallowed but not loading per se. So it does make it difficult for me in this situation but oh well it is what it is.
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“ once a unit has moved or been involved in the combat phase, it can’t do anything at all in the noncombat phase with the exception of planes. I didn’t see you respond to these points I made.”
I did actually. Just like a multinational transport the transports are not moving from the docks in Japans harbors so are not doing anything at all in noncombat; the land units are simply loading onto them. But we have heard from the ultimate authority and no set of rules is perfect so we just have to live within the rules that are set for us, in life and in this game!
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Like I said earlier, it doesn’t make that huge of a difference for you in practise.
If you look at the board you see that you can move the tr’s to z20 during CM. They do nothing this turn, but the next turn they’ll be able to load up to 9 land units and thus wreak havoc on Korea. Missing a few art there doesn’t matter with all that abundant air available.
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Do you want to make the edit as to what you will allow me to change as well as your own changes due to the ambiguity and difference in interpretations of the rulebook? I don’t want to presume anything else at this point LOL. Hopefully like you said we can continue on in good fun in this and other games. I do apologize again for any insinuations of bias etc
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I’ve considered it, but sorry, can’t do that really. There would have to be cancelled battles and stuff. Just too much that needs to be changed.
Anyway, the des primarily cancelled a direct attack on Korea. The issue that’s been most debated was whether units would be able to be picked up during NCM in z6.
Since there’s a good alternative to that, namely z20, I actually don’t think there’s much call to edit stuff. I’m confident you’ll take down Korea in two turns without much resistance.
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@trulpen unfortunately due to the rules reading that way which was very misleading to me at least I made buys of transports and troops in Japan based on that 🤦♂️ As well as forgoing reclaiming money islands and basing my entire fleet in Japan etc etc so this has really screwed up everything
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@jkeller its ok lets just play on
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Hope for a continuously good and fun game. No hard feelings.
I guess the main problem was the oversight of a built des preventing loading (have not played revised, but that version then has a different rule set regarding this). That was simple and direct and not opposed. All the other stuff is a different story.
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@jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):
In axis and Allie’s a “movement” is from one territory or sea zone to another. There are no rules or even a definition of movement WITHIN a territory or sea zone. So by rule the transport is NOT moving in noncombat so this rule you quotes does not apply in this case
I thought a similar thing until asking Krieghund recently about an allied unit loading on another ally’s transport at the same time as a unit on the transport unloading on the other coast. To my surprise, he said the transport is moving within the zone so you can’t do that because the ally’s transport must only move on his turn. So there is such a thing as moving to a coast within a sea zone, but I never knew that before either. Agree it’s not spelled out in the rules. So no shame there. :wink:
But in your case, if you just think of units moving in the combat movement phase or conducting combat in the combat phase, they are done unless they’re aircraft. I don’t think it says exactly that in one place, but it’s true when you put all the rules together. I hope that helps.
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@gamerman01 yeah I think the rules don’t exactly make sense in that way but it is what is. I’m no military expert but at least from my understanding transports don’t participate in combat much (other than to hide)especially in a home port and don’t really do much in loading either. But them’s the rules we have to play by so what it is what it is!
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Yeah :facepunch: at least they’re not taken first as casualties to protect the warships any more. And I remember them shooting down aircraft like AA with their 1 defense.
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@gamerman01 this is true lol. In revised you could have like one warship and a large stack of trannies and be safe from a decent size Air Force. That was silly too. But anyway I want to thank you very much for your help not only in this game but for running the leagues in general. Having organized quite a bit before for other games I know it’s a lot of work and a thankless job but it brings a lot of us much entertainment and comeraderie so thank you
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Game History
Round: 7 Research Technology - Germans Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 5 artilleries, 3 fighters, 6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Germans 1 mech_infantry moved from Urals to Timguska Germans take Timguska from Russians 1 armour moved from Urals to Evenkiyskiy Germans take Evenkiyskiy from Russians 1 armour moved from Evenkiyskiy to Yenisey Germans take Yenisey from Russians 3 infantry moved from Vologda to Samara Combat - Germans Battle in Samara Germans attack with 3 infantry Russians defend with 1 infantry Germans roll dice for 3 infantry in Samara, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0.50 expected hits Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Samara, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Samara Germans win, taking Samara from Russians with 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry Non Combat Move - Germans 1 infantry moved from Archangel to Vologda 1 infantry moved from Tambov to Bryansk 3 artilleries moved from Ukraine to Bryansk 4 artilleries moved from Archangel to Belarus 4 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Belarus 1 submarine moved from 91 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone 1 cruiser moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone 1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 1 artillery moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 6 mech_infantrys moved from Germany to Eastern Poland 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 114 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from 115 Sea Zone to Novgorod 1 artillery moved from 115 Sea Zone to Novgorod 1 battleship moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone 1 tactical_bomber moved from Southern France to Southern Italy 1 fighter moved from Western Germany to Southern Italy 1 fighter moved from Southern France to Southern Italy 1 destroyer moved from 112 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone 1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Volgograd 1 armour moved from Bryansk to Volgograd 1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Volgograd 1 armour moved from Bryansk to Volgograd Place Units - Germans 3 artilleries placed in Ukraine 3 infantry placed in Volgograd 2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Novgorod 2 mech_infantrys placed in Western Germany 2 infantry placed in Germany 3 fighters placed in France Germans undo move 6. 3 fighters placed in Western Germany Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 62 PUs; end with 62 PUs Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 67 PUs Objective Germans 3 Control Caucasus: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 72 PUs Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 82 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Russians regular : 0.67 Germans regular : 0.50 -
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R7 L21 SF jkeller vs trulpen (+43) OOB.tsvg
Game History
Round: 7
Purchase Units - Russians Russians buy 1 artillery and 7 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Russians 1 armour moved from Libya to Tunisia Russians take Tunisia from Italians 1 fighter moved from Russia to Vologda 3 infantry moved from Russia to Vologda 3 artilleries and 10 infantry moved from Russia to Samara Combat - Russians Battle in Samara Russians attack with 3 artilleries and 10 infantry Germans defend with 2 infantry Russians roll dice for 3 artilleries and 10 infantry in Samara, round 2 : 3/13 hits, 3,17 expected hits Germans roll dice for 2 infantry in Samara, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Samara Russians win, taking Samara from Germans with 3 artilleries and 10 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6 Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry Battle in Vologda Russians attack with 1 fighter and 3 infantry Germans defend with 2 infantry Russians roll dice for 1 fighter and 3 infantry in Vologda, round 2 : 0/4 hits, 1,00 expected hits Germans roll dice for 2 infantry in Vologda, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Vologda Russians roll dice for 1 fighter and 2 infantry in Vologda, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 0,83 expected hits Germans roll dice for 2 infantry in Vologda, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Vologda 1 fighter owned by the Russians retreated 1 infantry owned by the Russians retreated to Russia Germans win with 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -6 Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry Non Combat Move - Russians 1 fighter moved from Vologda to Russia 1 aaGun moved from Russia to Samara 1 mech_infantry moved from Egypt to Iraq 6 infantry moved from Russia to Samara 1 submarine moved from 98 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone Place Units - Russians 1 artillery and 7 infantry placed in Russia Turn Complete - Russians Russians collect 13 PUs; end with 13 PUs Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 9 PUs; end with 22 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Germans regular : 0,00
Russians regular : -2,00
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