Useless Land


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Okay, what is Larry’s unholy fetish with useless land!?!?!

    Come on, the Solomons were a HUGE contention point and turning point in the war!  Why arn’t they worth at least 1 IPC?  Wake Island was America’s frontier air base before the war, why isn’t IT worth at least 1 IPC?  Same with the Carolinas!  All these places were at least useful in the war, Brazil was worthless!

    So my theory is this, all territories that are player controlled at the start of the AAR game, should be worth at least 1 IPC.  That gives America +1 for Midway and Japan +3 (1 for wake, 1 for Solomons and 1 for Carolinas)

    That should even the game out so you don’t need a bid.  Since the bids are so low now, that any minor change would negate their necessity.  Now you have Japan making 9 IPCs over 3 rounds and America getting 3 extra over 3 rounds.  That’s about the equivalent of the 6 IPC bid standard anyway.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I fully agree with that. Under AARHE i believe some of these locations have been assigned new status as Victory cities. The other consideration obviously is economics. Secondly, as you may know the map will be redesigned to reflect new ideas. That is where your idea will come in. Please again state exactly what territories you feel need to be changed. Is your list complete? Are their other considerations?

    I feel hawaii needs to have some production facilities ( limited)

    Solomons
    Carolines
    Other island groups
    Gibrater
    Egypt
    Persia
    Japan

    reduce:

    mexico
    brazil


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Imperious:

    I fully agree with that. Under AARHE i believe some of these locations have been assigned new status as Victory cities. The other consideration obviously is economics. Secondly, as you may know the map will be redesigned to reflect new ideas. That is where your idea will come in. Please again state exactly what territories you feel need to be changed. Is your list complete? Are their other considerations?

    I feel hawaii needs to have some production facilities ( limited)

    Solomons
    Carolines
    Other island groups
    Gibrater
    Egypt
    Persia
    Japan

    reduce:

    mexico
    brazil

    I’m really mostly interested in land being worth something to take…especially in the Pacific where America should be island hopping if they want to be historically acurate.

    So,

    Midway - 1 IPC
    Wake - 1 IPC
    Carolina Islands - 1 IPC
    Solomon Islands - 1 IPC

    Gibraltar should also be worth something, maybe 1 IPC.

    You could increase Hawaii to 2 or maybe even 3 IPCs but then Okinawa, New Guinea, Solomons, Carolinas and Wake should be worth 2 IPCs and Hawaii worth 3 and Midway worth 1.

    That’s +8 IPC to Axis, +4 IPC to Allies (Gibraltar included.)

    There should be no need for a bid then.  And yes, that’s a complete list.  If we were allowed to conquer neutrals, I’d say standard 3 IPC to declare war on them, 1 IPC for conquering them and they get 2 infantry and 1 armor for defense.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK good. Except we allready have neutral armies and they are historical based. Thanks to my ww2 data book.



  • with new rules handling neutral…many of the useless territories are now meaningful

    giving Gibraltar or Wake island 1 IPC is extreme!
    it is enough to ruin the game proportions



  • i do think that all those aforementioned territories should be worth something, but not necessarily 1 ipc. i think i solved this territory worth problem considerably when i created the expanded victory city list (see AARHE phase 1). for example, Solomon islands (as well as other key pacific islands are victory cities now, but still worth the same number of ipcs.

    i think it’s important to note something else here before we decide to change the ipc values of these “worthless” territories. IMO the game income is already too spread out compared to realistic income contributions. what i mean is that, for example, japan’s economy is 30 in early 1942. to say that the Solomons should be worth 1 is to say that about 1/30th of japans income came from the Solomons which is way too much historically! Most of japan’s income (or economy) come from the home island of japan, but in the game it’s only 8/30ths of the the total income. if ipc distribution is to be realistic then japan needs to be worth proportionately more and/or other territories worth proportionately less, but still keep the sum at about 30. (actually, compared to the other nations in the game, japan should be worth less than 30, but that’s a separate issue).


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OMG Duke what a relief!!! where have to been???  You have alot to catch up with so please do. 😄


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I still think they should be worth $$$.  And no, I don’t think it upsets the game balance in anyway but to maybe rebalance it to remove the need for bids.



  • duke we missed you 🙂 great to see you back

    realistically: wrong proportions to give Wake Island or Gibraltar 1 IPC
    gameplay wise: its good to get something for them…make them attractive to attack…Pacific war

    realism vs. gameplay
    we can give “sub-IPC” income and “sub-INF” VCP infantry raising power

    like 1 IPC and 1 VCP if you hold Caroline Islands, Wake Island and Solomon Islands


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    But you are forgetting that it also re-balances the game to give them a value.  +3/rnd axis, +2/rnd allies, that’s a pretty big difference in the over all long term game.  Don’t need a bid anymore.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Right and also remember this idea goes under the “alternate map project”

    we may have to have everything that requires a new map under phase three only… that will be the final step into a new version of the game. Otherwise the rules are useless because all the other rules dont need map changes. ideas?



  • it does feel like i’ve been gone for way too long. i missed all you guys. i’ve been so busy. i’m going to try to catch back with the boards whenever i can, but unfortunately i doubt i’ll be able to spend as much time with it as i did before… at least for the foreseeable future.

    Jennifer, what if we have all teritories worth something (at least 1) but also raise all other terrritory ipc vlaues according to realism? that we still have all territories worth something and still make it close to history. best of both worlds, right? obviously this would give all nations more ipcs than before. we could proportionately raise the prices of units so we don’t have to clutter the board with even more purchased units each turn than we already have.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Works for me.  I’m just irritated that Wake Island is worth nothing in all of Larry’s versions.  Come on now!  It was a strategic island air base!  That’s why Japan took it!  Same with Midway…uh, Battle of Midway anyone???  If you got nothing for it, why would there have been a battle there?  Etc.

    What if Brazil is dropped to 1 IPC, Midway is raised to 2 IPC?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Midway at 2 ipc is kinda much! hawaii is at least twice as important as Midway and its not worth 4 IPC. Lets just keep it at 1 IPC. all of them at 1 IPC. Mexicao should be at 1 IPC ( if even that) Brazil should be at 2.



  • well they are only strategic places
    like you can put planes there

    Wake Island 6.5km^2
    Caroline Island 3.76km^2
    Solomon Islands 28,450km^2
    Midway ~5km^2

    1 IPC if you hold both Wake + Caroline
    (so US holding one stops the Japan from getting 1 IPC)

    Solomon Islands 1 IPC

    Midway 0 IPC

    for gameplay thats +2 to Axis



  • Jennifer, you make a good point about the need to create an incentive for midway etc… but like you said, midway and wake were important for strategic military purposes (not because of their production capability or resources). what would you say to someone who says that strategic location shouldn’t factor into IPC value? in phase 1 I tried to factor strategic location into the victory city points for each territory, thus giving previously worthless territories a value of some sort.

    did Larry and the other designers make Borneo, East Indies and Mexico IPC value so high because of their quantity of petroleum? that is the only reason why i could think to have islands worth 4 IPCs! if that’s the case, why didn’t the designers have trans-Jordan and Persia worth more than 1?

    this is what i think happened when they designed the game… the designers settled on relative national IPC totals to compromise between history and game balance. i don’t think it was just history, because if that were the case then they would never be able to justify letting Japan start at 30 IPCs! i think they let japan start with that many because of game balance issues (at least the axis have a shot of winning when japan starts with 30). after the designers settled on the relative starting income of each nation, then they filled in each territory’s IPC value. since they inflated japan’s income, they needed to place those extra IPCs somewhere. if they put them in japan, then japan would be worth as much as eastern US which would never fly by anyone’s standards. mainland Asia already has too many IPCs per territory… if they add more to these territories then there would be a ripple effect making all other neighboring territories worth more. the only other option was to add them to the islands. i think they grouped all the IPCs into the couple of oil-producing islands in order to create the realistic incentive for those oil-prodcuing territories.

    I’m not saying i agree with the designer’s thinking, just that’s how i think they got the map to the way it is. personally, i wouldn’t mind all pacific islands worth something.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Larry probably did.  And then decided to make forward islands worthless and back water islands worth a lot to secure Japanese income for a while.

    Still doesn’t make it right.  All the islands should at least be worth 1 IPC in my mind.



  • i think the fundamental problem with the design of the game is that economy (or income) is used as an incentive to take and hold territory when i don’t think that’s realisitc. Example: Germany’s economy wasn’t cut to 25% of what is was in 1942 when the Aliies had Germany surrounded, but in the game that’s what it would be (Germany starts at 40 and the territory of Germany is worth 10). I don’t think that economy is the right incentive to use for taking enemy territory. Maybe something like victory city points for every territory, obviously having some territories worth many more vcps than others but still having all territories worth at least 1.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Money isn’t the only determining factor.

    If it was, then capitals would be near worthless.  They’re heavily defended and not worth the return on investment (costs you much more in man power to take then you get in return)

    Also, if it was just money, America would sit and not spend a time.  Let the Axis take over the world, and just before they start winning, launch an all out attack with 400 IPCs worth of equipment.  (Imagine the invasion force America could build up with 10 rounds and starting equipment to play with!)



  • @Jennifer:

    Also, if it was just money, America would sit and not spend a time.  Let the Axis take over the world, and just before they start winning, launch an all out attack with 400 IPCs worth of equipment.  (Imagine the invasion force America could build up with 10 rounds and starting equipment to play with!)

    It would be impressive, but short lived.  While the US spent 10 turns getting 400 IPC’s for that 1-turn hyper-build up, the Axis would be collecting about 120 IPC PER TURN!

    As far as island values…
    Midway should not be worth anything.  Heck, Midway needs to be totally supplied with EVERYTHING, including fresh water.  The owner of Midway should actually have to PAY for it to represent the cost of supplying the island…  😄



  • @ncscswitch:

    @Jennifer:

    Also, if it was just money, America would sit and not spend a time.  Let the Axis take over the world, and just before they start winning, launch an all out attack with 400 IPCs worth of equipment.  (Imagine the invasion force America could build up with 10 rounds and starting equipment to play with!)

    It would be impressive, but short lived.  While the US spent 10 turns getting 400 IPC’s for that 1-turn hyper-build up, the Axis would be collecting about 120 IPC PER TURN!

    As far as island values…
    Midway should not be worth anything.  Heck, Midway needs to be totally supplied with EVERYTHING, including fresh water.  The owner of Midway should actually have to PAY for it to represent the cost of supplying the island…  😄

    Funny you should metion fresh water.  Because of fresh water, the US Navy was able to find out that the Japs were intending to attack Midway.  I guess the supply system isnt just for sending goodies to soldiers to fight.  😉


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    @Jennifer:

    Also, if it was just money, America would sit and not spend a time.  Let the Axis take over the world, and just before they start winning, launch an all out attack with 400 IPCs worth of equipment.  (Imagine the invasion force America could build up with 10 rounds and starting equipment to play with!)

    It would be impressive, but short lived.  While the US spent 10 turns getting 400 IPC’s for that 1-turn hyper-build up, the Axis would be collecting about 120 IPC PER TURN!

    As far as island values…
    Midway should not be worth anything.  Heck, Midway needs to be totally supplied with EVERYTHING, including fresh water.  The owner of Midway should actually have to PAY for it to represent the cost of supplying the island…  😄

    You are assuming there’s no Russia or Brition.  Germany and Japan can only collect a maximum of 70 for the first turn, how can they possibly be at 120 per turn for 10 turns, otherwise?

    Whereas, America starts at 42 per turn, figure it’s going to loose the chinas, that’s still 38 per turn.

    1* 42 = 42
    1* 40 = 40
    8* 38 = 304
    +
    Start of 42

    =

    428 IPCs on round 10.

    Meanwhile, the axis have to use their income to attempt to take Russia and England.    But we’re assuming its a game for money…well, what would be the result of an untaxed sudden impact of 428 IPCs in new units AND America’s starting units on a depleted german/japanese army/navy/air force?



  • What I am saying is that US can drop their 400 IPC’s.

    But if the US stays completely out of it for 10 turns, and waits for the Axis to come to their door (as you stated in your original post), then by that time the Axis will be collecting $120 per turn.  In 3 turns, that 400 IPC build is toast.  And the Axis still has all of their remaining units from taking USSR and England to boot.

    Last, but not least, USA has a build limit of 22 units…
    You are going to have to buy a lot of BB’s to even be able to SPEND that much money in 1 turn…


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    What the heck is this 400 IPC for usa thing?

    You mean after 10 turns of saving?

    Whats the point? nobody is gonna play like that anyway.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Imperious:

    What the heck is this 400 IPC for usa thing?

    You mean after 10 turns of saving?

    Whats the point? nobody is gonna play like that anyway.

    That was my point.  Someone said the game was about finances.  I was saying it was never about finances.  You could save a huge amount of cash with america, but that’s not going to win.

    Then again, Germany/Japan might make 120 a round, but after America’s been building for 10 rounds without any threat to it, and without squanderig resources, Europe’s going to be turned into a wasteland in one round. 🙂


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